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2013-05-14 8:26 AM

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Champion
7347
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SRQ, FL
Subject: Defending Obamacare

I'd like someone to defend Obamacare.  Yes it gets ride of preexisting clauses (but does not cap how much they can charge for these conditions) and yes it offers healthcare to many who cannot afford it (on the rest of our dime)...

But when you look at these #s; 100-400% increases!  How can anyone defend this as a good program overall?

For a lot of families this will essentially result in a second mortgage payment every month.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/insurers-predict-100-400-obamacare-rate-explosion/article/2529523

So much for the "Affordable" Care Act.



2013-05-14 8:35 AM
in reply to: #4741420

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Pro
4277
20002000100100252525
Parker, CO
Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare
what do you have against medical coverage for all?
2013-05-14 8:35 AM
in reply to: #4741420

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare
Once this scheme fails because of "market driven" forces, a single payer system will be pitched as the only acceptable answer.  I predict the eventual failure of the Affordable Care Act will be attributed to capitalism and greed - remember it's insurance companies and greedy doctors which are to blame for the high costs of healthcare.
2013-05-14 8:37 AM
in reply to: #4741420

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Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare

You are looking at the short term picture and not the long term or the goal of the "Affordable Care Act". It has/had one purpose and one purpose only, to grow the Federal Government. This is designed to eventually give the Federal Government complete control over the health care industry.

Keep up these kind of posts and you'll soon see the IRS at your front door.

2013-05-14 8:45 AM
in reply to: #4741420

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Elite
6387
50001000100100100252525
Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare
Why do you hate healthy people?
2013-05-14 8:49 AM
in reply to: #4741420

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Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare
It's a stop gap. It is not supposed to nor ever was it supposed to be a solution. The purpose is to get so complicated and cost so much for the smaller companies that everyone ends up agreeing to a "single payer" (read: tax dollars") solution. No one, not even those in Congress who could talk positively about this horrid POS with a straight face thought any differently about it.

Think I'm being cynical?





2013-05-14 9:23 AM
in reply to: #4741448

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Master
3127
2000100010025
Sunny Southern Cal
Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare
crusevegas - 2013-05-14 6:37 AM

You are looking at the short term picture and not the long term or the goal of the "Affordable Care Act". It has/had one purpose and one purpose only, to grow the Federal Government. This is designed to eventually give the Federal Government complete control over the health care industry.

Keep up these kind of posts and you'll soon see the IRS at your front door.

You don't need posts like this for the IRS to rob you.  You just need a savings or retirement account.

2013-05-14 9:38 AM
in reply to: #4741420

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Elite
4564
200020005002525
Boise
Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare
I think I am in agreement that it is for making single payer an easier option. But really have you tried dealing with insurance companies before obamacare, it's not that great. When my wife gave birth to our son, it took 6 months before I even knew how much money I was supposed to pay. In the meantime I got 60 different bills/adjustments. I actually have good insurance too. Just this week I got a bill from an urgent care visit from june of 2011. WTF. 
2013-05-14 10:11 AM
in reply to: #4741485

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Elite
5145
500010025
Cleveland
Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare

DanielG - 2013-05-14 9:49 AM It's a stop gap. It is not supposed to nor ever was it supposed to be a solution. The purpose is to get so complicated and cost so much for the smaller companies that everyone ends up agreeing to a "single payer" (read: tax dollars") solution. No one, not even those in Congress who could talk positively about this horrid POS with a straight face thought any differently about it. Think I'm being cynical?

 

Yup.  It's like Microsoft releasing an OS so bad that the next one is readily adopted because, by comparison, it is WAY more palatable.

 

Nobody wanted single-payer, so they ram this thing down our throats so that the next time single-payer is put forth, everyone will grasp at it madly... and if they don't, they have to accept that they are stuck with this piece of crap.

2013-05-14 10:13 AM
in reply to: #4741608

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Champion
7347
5000200010010010025
SRQ, FL
Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare

JoshR - 2013-05-14 10:38 AM I think I am in agreement that it is for making single payer an easier option. But really have you tried dealing with insurance companies before obamacare, it's not that great. When my wife gave birth to our son, it took 6 months before I even knew how much money I was supposed to pay. In the meantime I got 60 different bills/adjustments. I actually have good insurance too. Just this week I got a bill from an urgent care visit from june of 2011. WTF. 

Oh I agree the current system is a joke.  I once got a bill 9 months after the treatment.  I had even forgotten what it was for.

However take your experience with the DMV, IRS, TSA etc.. and apply that to your health care.  You really think that'll be better?

 

So far no defense...

2013-05-14 10:23 AM
in reply to: #4741420

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Pro
9391
500020002000100100100252525
Omaha, NE
Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare

Obamacare is one of the most unpopular laws ever passed (Overall, just 35 percent have a favorable view of Obamacare - Kaiser Health Tracking Poll).  Not one single republican voted for it in either house.  I read somewhere the other day that prohibition was the only other law at the level of opposition in the history of the republic.  Prohibition passed in 1919 and was repealed in 1933, and Obamacare will most likely follow in its footsteps.  I don't foresee it being shifted into a single payer, I see it being repealed, but whoever repeals it will have to have some type of solution, they can't just go back to the old status quo which was jacked up as well.

On a side note, I know the Dems are all excited about 2014 & 2016 because of last November, but I predict Obamacare will be quite the boat anchor for them once half their supporters are cut to under 30 hours at their jobs and the rest have to pay double or triple for their insurance with no exchanges in place to move onto Obamacare.

This will be a good lesson for the history books of how not to pass a law. 



2013-05-14 10:28 AM
in reply to: #4741741

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare
tuwood - 2013-05-14 10:23 AM

This will be a good lesson for the history books of how not to pass a law. 

"But we have to pass the bill so you can find out what's in it..." ~ Pelosi

2013-05-14 10:31 AM
in reply to: #4741712

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Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida
Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare
TriRSquared - 2013-05-14 10:13 AM

JoshR - 2013-05-14 10:38 AM I think I am in agreement that it is for making single payer an easier option. But really have you tried dealing with insurance companies before obamacare, it's not that great. When my wife gave birth to our son, it took 6 months before I even knew how much money I was supposed to pay. In the meantime I got 60 different bills/adjustments. I actually have good insurance too. Just this week I got a bill from an urgent care visit from june of 2011. WTF. 

Oh I agree the current system is a joke.  I once got a bill 9 months after the treatment.  I had even forgotten what it was for.

However take your experience with the DMV, IRS, TSA etc.. and apply that to your health care.  You really think that'll be better?

 

So far no defense...

^^was it for Alzheimer's treatments?Wink

2013-05-14 10:32 AM
in reply to: #4741741

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Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida
Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare
tuwood - 2013-05-14 10:23 AM

Obamacare is one of the most unpopular laws ever passed (Overall, just 35 percent have a favorable view of Obamacare - Kaiser Health Tracking Poll).  Not one single republican voted for it in either house.  I read somewhere the other day that prohibition was the only other law at the level of opposition in the history of the republic.  Prohibition passed in 1919 and was repealed in 1933, and Obamacare will most likely follow in its footsteps.  I don't foresee it being shifted into a single payer, I see it being repealed, but whoever repeals it will have to have some type of solution, they can't just go back to the old status quo which was jacked up as well.

On a side note, I know the Dems are all excited about 2014 & 2016 because of last November, but I predict Obamacare will be quite the boat anchor for them once half their supporters are cut to under 30 hours at their jobs and the rest have to pay double or triple for their insurance with no exchanges in place to move onto Obamacare.

This will be a good lesson for the history books of how not to pass a law. 

Nope, they'll just blame it on the Republican Congress and people will fall for it. 

2013-05-14 10:43 AM
in reply to: #4741765

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Champion
6056
500010002525
Menomonee Falls, WI
Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare
GomesBolt - 2013-05-14 10:32 AM

tuwood - 2013-05-14 10:23 AM

Obamacare is one of the most unpopular laws ever passed (Overall, just 35 percent have a favorable view of Obamacare - Kaiser Health Tracking Poll).  Not one single republican voted for it in either house.  I read somewhere the other day that prohibition was the only other law at the level of opposition in the history of the republic.  Prohibition passed in 1919 and was repealed in 1933, and Obamacare will most likely follow in its footsteps.  I don't foresee it being shifted into a single payer, I see it being repealed, but whoever repeals it will have to have some type of solution, they can't just go back to the old status quo which was jacked up as well.

On a side note, I know the Dems are all excited about 2014 & 2016 because of last November, but I predict Obamacare will be quite the boat anchor for them once half their supporters are cut to under 30 hours at their jobs and the rest have to pay double or triple for their insurance with no exchanges in place to move onto Obamacare.

This will be a good lesson for the history books of how not to pass a law. 

Nope, they'll just blame it on the Republican Congress and people will fall for it. 



They'll also blame Republican governors for not acting quickly to set up state exchanges because those governors wanted to play no role in this turd burger.



Edited by scoobysdad 2013-05-14 10:45 AM
2013-05-14 10:52 AM
in reply to: #4741420

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Champion
6046
5000100025
New York, NY
Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare

1. Patients are no longer threatened with lifetime caps on coverage. Families no longer have to make the hard choices of delaying care or facing bankruptcy.


2. Children with pre-existing conditions are no longer being denied coverage. Insurance companies can no longer deny coverage to children under the age of 19 because of a pre-existing condition or disability.


3. Young adults are getting covered on their parents’ insurance. Many medical students in Doctors for America are now covered thanks to this provision. Over 6.6 million people age 19-26 have gotten insured so far!


4. We are shifting toward prevention. Preventive services are now free for Medicare and new insurance plans. For the first time, we have a National Prevention Strategy. And the Prevention and Public Health Fund is helping communities launch new programs to improve healthy living.


5. People and communities are focusing efforts on preventing disease. $750 million in 2010 and $500 million in 2011 have already gone to programs in tobacco cessation, obesity prevention, care coordination, behavioral health, and more in all 50 states.


6. Seniors are getting help with prescription drugs. 4 million seniors in every state got rebate checks in 2010. In 2011, they started getting a 50% discount on brand-name drugs in the Medicare prescription coverage gap.


7. Hospitals are gearing up to improve quality and safety. Medicare reimbursement changes in 2012 are getting hospitals around the country to step up efforts to prevent hospital-acquired infections and to keep people from landing back in the hospital within 30 days of going home.


8. Small businesses are getting help covering employees. Up to 4 million small businesses that employ 16 million people are eligible for 35% tax credits on health insurance premiums right now. Note: small businesses will not be required to buy insurance under the law.


9. Insurance companies have a new limit on profits. Insurance companies have to spend at least 80% of premium dollars on health care. In the large-group market (big employers), they must spend at least 85% on health care -- so more of our premium dollars go to health instead of administration and executive salaries. In the summer of 2012, 12.8 million individuals will be receiving rebates from insurance companies who have failed to meet these minimum spending requirements. (so the increases you are quoting will end up being refunded)


10. We are training thousands more health care providers to take care of people. Over $320 million in grants is already boosting primary care residency programs, training physician assistants, and helping states create innovative plans for their unique health care workforce needs.



2013-05-14 10:55 AM
in reply to: #4741741

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Expert
3126
2000100010025
Boise, ID
Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare
tuwood - 2013-05-14 9:23 AM

Obamacare is one of the most unpopular laws ever passed (Overall, just 35 percent have a favorable view of Obamacare - Kaiser Health Tracking Poll).  Not one single republican voted for it in either house.  I read somewhere the other day that prohibition was the only other law at the level of opposition in the history of the republic.  Prohibition passed in 1919 and was repealed in 1933, and Obamacare will most likely follow in its footsteps.  I don't foresee it being shifted into a single payer, I see it being repealed, but whoever repeals it will have to have some type of solution, they can't just go back to the old status quo which was jacked up as well.

On a side note, I know the Dems are all excited about 2014 & 2016 because of last November, but I predict Obamacare will be quite the boat anchor for them once half their supporters are cut to under 30 hours at their jobs and the rest have to pay double or triple for their insurance with no exchanges in place to move onto Obamacare.

This will be a good lesson for the history books of how not to pass a law. 

I am afraid you have too much faith in the American voter. The Obama spin machine is and will be in full force on this one and they have shown they are good at it.

Everything will be the fault of the dirty employers, insurance companies and republicans. 

2013-05-14 10:57 AM
in reply to: #4741825

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Expert
3126
2000100010025
Boise, ID
Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare
TriToy - 2013-05-14 9:52 AM

1. Patients are no longer threatened with lifetime caps on coverage. Families no longer have to make the hard choices of delaying care or facing bankruptcy.


2. Children with pre-existing conditions are no longer being denied coverage. Insurance companies can no longer deny coverage to children under the age of 19 because of a pre-existing condition or disability.


3. Young adults are getting covered on their parents’ insurance. Many medical students in Doctors for America are now covered thanks to this provision. Over 6.6 million people age 19-26 have gotten insured so far!


4. We are shifting toward prevention. Preventive services are now free for Medicare and new insurance plans. For the first time, we have a National Prevention Strategy. And the Prevention and Public Health Fund is helping communities launch new programs to improve healthy living.


5. People and communities are focusing efforts on preventing disease. $750 million in 2010 and $500 million in 2011 have already gone to programs in tobacco cessation, obesity prevention, care coordination, behavioral health, and more in all 50 states.


6. Seniors are getting help with prescription drugs. 4 million seniors in every state got rebate checks in 2010. In 2011, they started getting a 50% discount on brand-name drugs in the Medicare prescription coverage gap.


7. Hospitals are gearing up to improve quality and safety. Medicare reimbursement changes in 2012 are getting hospitals around the country to step up efforts to prevent hospital-acquired infections and to keep people from landing back in the hospital within 30 days of going home.


8. Small businesses are getting help covering employees. Up to 4 million small businesses that employ 16 million people are eligible for 35% tax credits on health insurance premiums right now. Note: small businesses will not be required to buy insurance under the law.


9. Insurance companies have a new limit on profits. Insurance companies have to spend at least 80% of premium dollars on health care. In the large-group market (big employers), they must spend at least 85% on health care -- so more of our premium dollars go to health instead of administration and executive salaries. In the summer of 2012, 12.8 million individuals will be receiving rebates from insurance companies who have failed to meet these minimum spending requirements. (so the increases you are quoting will end up being refunded)


10. We are training thousands more health care providers to take care of people. Over $320 million in grants is already boosting primary care residency programs, training physician assistants, and helping states create innovative plans for their unique health care workforce needs.

Yep and it's all free too!!! What a deal!!!!

2013-05-14 10:59 AM
in reply to: #4741825

User image

Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare
TriToy - 2013-05-14 11:52 AM

8. Small businesses are getting help covering employees. Up to 4 million small businesses that employ 16 million people are eligible for 35% tax credits on health insurance premiums right now. Note: small businesses will not be required to buy insurance under the law.





Half of small business owners say health care reform is bad for them
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/news-wire/2013/05/13/h...

2013-05-14 11:00 AM
in reply to: #4741825

User image

Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare
TriToy - 2013-05-14 11:52 AM

9. Insurance companies have a new limit on profits. Insurance companies have to spend at least 80% of premium dollars on health care. In the large-group market (big employers), they must spend at least 85% on health care -- so more of our premium dollars go to health instead of administration and executive salaries. In the summer of 2012, 12.8 million individuals will be receiving rebates from insurance companies who have failed to meet these minimum spending requirements. (so the increases you are quoting will end up being refunded)




YAY! Insurance companies will no longer have any incentive to expand their business. They have zero reason to look for ways to cut costs and drop premiums either. What a bargain!

2013-05-14 11:02 AM
in reply to: #4741420

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Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare


http://pharmacycheckerblog.com/prescription-drug-prices-coverage-un...
The Obama administration’s loose guidelines pertaining to prescription drugs and essential health benefits mandate that they require only one drug per class – in other words one statin (to treat high cholesterol), one proton pump inhibitors (to treat GERD), one inhaled steroid (to treat asthma), and so on, must be covered.

For many this will not be a problem. If there is only one prescription you plan on taking, you should be able to find a plan that covers it. If, however, you are taking multiple medications, things could get a bit hairy. Just because two drugs are in the same class doesn’t mean they work with the same efficacy for a given person. For example, atorvastatin (generic Lipitor) may work better for cholesterol treatment than simvastatin (generic Zocor) for one person, and vice versa for another. Imagine how difficult it would be to find an insurance plan that covers all your drugs if you are on three or four medications!


2013-05-14 11:06 AM
in reply to: #4741825

User image

Pro
9391
500020002000100100100252525
Omaha, NE
Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare
TriToy - 2013-05-14 10:52 AM

1. Patients are no longer threatened with lifetime caps on coverage. Families no longer have to make the hard choices of delaying care or facing bankruptcy.


2. Children with pre-existing conditions are no longer being denied coverage. Insurance companies can no longer deny coverage to children under the age of 19 because of a pre-existing condition or disability.


3. Young adults are getting covered on their parents’ insurance. Many medical students in Doctors for America are now covered thanks to this provision. Over 6.6 million people age 19-26 have gotten insured so far!


4. We are shifting toward prevention. Preventive services are now free for Medicare and new insurance plans. For the first time, we have a National Prevention Strategy. And the Prevention and Public Health Fund is helping communities launch new programs to improve healthy living.


5. People and communities are focusing efforts on preventing disease. $750 million in 2010 and $500 million in 2011 have already gone to programs in tobacco cessation, obesity prevention, care coordination, behavioral health, and more in all 50 states.


6. Seniors are getting help with prescription drugs. 4 million seniors in every state got rebate checks in 2010. In 2011, they started getting a 50% discount on brand-name drugs in the Medicare prescription coverage gap.


7. Hospitals are gearing up to improve quality and safety. Medicare reimbursement changes in 2012 are getting hospitals around the country to step up efforts to prevent hospital-acquired infections and to keep people from landing back in the hospital within 30 days of going home.


8. Small businesses are getting help covering employees. Up to 4 million small businesses that employ 16 million people are eligible for 35% tax credits on health insurance premiums right now. Note: small businesses will not be required to buy insurance under the law.


9. Insurance companies have a new limit on profits. Insurance companies have to spend at least 80% of premium dollars on health care. In the large-group market (big employers), they must spend at least 85% on health care -- so more of our premium dollars go to health instead of administration and executive salaries. In the summer of 2012, 12.8 million individuals will be receiving rebates from insurance companies who have failed to meet these minimum spending requirements. (so the increases you are quoting will end up being refunded)


10. We are training thousands more health care providers to take care of people. Over $320 million in grants is already boosting primary care residency programs, training physician assistants, and helping states create innovative plans for their unique health care workforce needs.

I don't think anyone denies that there aren't good things in Obamacare, but the problem is they all cost money and people have to pay for that.  There's no way to do all the things you just mentioned without increasing costs to insurance.

Lets just say Obamacare as an insurance option wasn't part of this law and they just made it law to cover all the things you mentioned.  Even with the mandated percentage of premiums going towards healthcare the costs would go through the roof on insurance.  Insurance companies make money, but my understanding is they only run something like 3% profit margins so they'd have to cut a lot of staff/expense to absorb much.

2013-05-14 11:22 AM
in reply to: #4741843

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Champion
6627
5000100050010025
Rochester Hills, Michigan
Gold member
Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare
DanielG - 2013-05-14 12:00 PM
TriToy - 2013-05-14 11:52 AM 9. Insurance companies have a new limit on profits. Insurance companies have to spend at least 80% of premium dollars on health care. In the large-group market (big employers), they must spend at least 85% on health care -- so more of our premium dollars go to health instead of administration and executive salaries. In the summer of 2012, 12.8 million individuals will be receiving rebates from insurance companies who have failed to meet these minimum spending requirements. (so the increases you are quoting will end up being refunded)


YAY! Insurance companies will no longer have any incentive to expand their business. They have zero reason to look for ways to cut costs and drop premiums either. What a bargain!

Not commenting on Obamacare, per se, but if you wonder why the discourse around controversial topics has turned most threads into a right-wing, conservative boys club, look no further: 

  • We have a post asking anyone to defend Obamacare. 
  • Then we have 15+ posts that essentially ridicule Obamacare and other non-conservative policies, same people, same discourse.
  • Then one person (a doctor, nonetheless) steps in and gives it a shot, with essentially some valid points.
  • And in response, sarcasm and criticism, not dialogue. (ETA: this was posted before Tony's response, which was on topic and respectful). 

It's creating a conservative mob mentality in many COJ threads, where fewer and fewer people will want to have a dialogue as when they try, they get overwhelmed, and over time, tired. Then they stop, as it's like trying to have a discussion with the tide or the sunrise.  It's not against forum rules, per se, it's just not very respectful or conducive to what the OP hoped, which was for someone to bring forward another point of view.   

My opinions only, not as a mod, but as someone that used to enjoy COJ. Carry on. 

 

2013-05-14 11:23 AM
in reply to: #4741420

User image

Expert
3126
2000100010025
Boise, ID
Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare

 

It ceases to be "insurance" under O-care.

When you add people who are already sick and are guaranteed to spend more than they pay in it is no longer insurance, it is redistribution. 

Which is exactly why they are so worried about young people not buying in. Currently most insurance companies run at a 7 to 1 ratio or even an 8 to 1 ratio in some cases. Which means the highest premium is up to 8 times what the lowest premium is. So for the 95 year old cancer patient the insurance cost could be 8 times what the 22 year old healthy persons insurance cost is. 

Under O-care the maximum ratio is 3 to 1. So... do you think the costs for the old person are going to come down to be 3 times what the cost of the healthy person is? Heck no, the rate for the healthy person is going to skyrocket to meet the 1/3 of the old persons costs ratio.

Soooo... tell me why in the heck I would want to pay for that? I would be much better off saving the $10k a year I would spend on insurance and paying the $95 penalty so I can pay cash for any services I need. Oh but they gutted the HSA plans as well, real nifty.

Oh and I am sick of hearing people talk about the massive profits insurance companies make. Sorry people, but show me the proof of ridiculous salaries and huge profit margins, I sell health insurance and I can tell you the insurance companies I sell are not raking in the dough. 

2013-05-14 11:25 AM
in reply to: #4741887

User image

Subject: RE: Defending Obamacare
rkreuser - 2013-05-14 12:22 PM

DanielG - 2013-05-14 12:00 PM
TriToy - 2013-05-14 11:52 AM 9. Insurance companies have a new limit on profits. Insurance companies have to spend at least 80% of premium dollars on health care. In the large-group market (big employers), they must spend at least 85% on health care -- so more of our premium dollars go to health instead of administration and executive salaries. In the summer of 2012, 12.8 million individuals will be receiving rebates from insurance companies who have failed to meet these minimum spending requirements. (so the increases you are quoting will end up being refunded)


YAY! Insurance companies will no longer have any incentive to expand their business. They have zero reason to look for ways to cut costs and drop premiums either. What a bargain!

Not commenting on Obamacare, per se, but if you wonder why the discourse around controversial topics has turned most threads into a right-wing, conservative boys club, look no further: 

  • We have a post asking anyone to defend Obamacare. 
  • Then we have 15+ posts that essentially ridicule Obamacare and other non-conservative policies, same people, same discourse.
  • Then one person (a doctor, nonetheless) steps in and gives it a shot, with essentially some valid points.
  • And in response, sarcasm and criticism, not dialogue.

It's creating a conservative mob mentality in many COJ threads, where fewer and fewer people will want to have a dialogue as when they try, they get overwhelmed, and over time, tired. Then they stop, as it's like trying to have a discussion with the tide or the sunrise.  It's not against forum rules, per se, it's just not very respectful or conducive to what the OP hoped, which was for someone to bring forward another point of view.   

My opinions only, not as a mod, but as someone that used to enjoy COJ. Carry on. 

 



You do realize that to others, that is having a conversation and it only is interrupted when people break in to whine about the method of discussion. In other words, that IS discussing.

I figure if you can discuss your opinion on discussion methodology, it's open for debate.

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