Where is the sport headed? (Page 2)
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2014-06-25 8:05 AM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Extreme Veteran 1986 Cypress, TX | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? I think Dan Empfield's article was cited already but in that piece and some others that he wrote he mentioned overall adult participation in the USA isn't down that much but that participants per race is down dramatically. Too many races sprung up out of the heyday from 2008-2011 because everyone thought they could make a buck. You're seeing the market correct itself this year (and to a degree last year) with a lot of races going under. That's a good thing in the long run. My thoughts for the future are:
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2014-06-25 12:58 PM in reply to: mike761 |
Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by JAYCT I think you are forecasting trends with insufficient data. The report indicates growth in all but last year: http://www.usatriathlon.org/about-multisport/demographics.aspxAm I missing something? There were a couple of declining years followed by a bounce back. Re: Adult and boomer participation. Triathlon is really a first world self-indulgent and time consuming sport for people with high disposable income as it relates to bucket listers who are just looking to finish an Ironman. I think growth has limited market potential based on disposable income and competing endurance events that are a lot cheaper as people branch out into other fitness related things. I also think that the economy and the perception of economic uncertainty plays a role like it did in the 2000 and 2008 numbers. That being said, I think it will keep growing and it seems to be getting more and more popular amongst the 40+ crowd around me. I do see some people shifting more into just running, cycling or other stuff that can be just as rewarding with lower costs though as the registration fees are lower and the need to travel as much for the big races like in Ironman isn't there so travel costs are negligent. Good points here, the average income in the US (taking inflation into consideration) has gone down over the last 4 or 5 years. That makes it difficult for people to indulge in this expensive sport. I believe the membership fee is $48? So you have do at least 4 races for it to be worth it. Personally 4 or 5 races is all can get in in 1 year so if the fee goes up again I'll be buying the single day passes. Yeah up from $30 just a couple years ago. The USAT numbers show growth *despite* that price increase. And many casual / occasional racers are just going to pay the 1-day license fee instead of getting a full USAT membership. So I think the OP's premise is false. |
2014-06-25 1:21 PM in reply to: spudone |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Originally posted by spudone Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by JAYCT I think you are forecasting trends with insufficient data. The report indicates growth in all but last year: http://www.usatriathlon.org/about-multisport/demographics.aspxAm I missing something? There were a couple of declining years followed by a bounce back. Re: Adult and boomer participation. Triathlon is really a first world self-indulgent and time consuming sport for people with high disposable income as it relates to bucket listers who are just looking to finish an Ironman. I think growth has limited market potential based on disposable income and competing endurance events that are a lot cheaper as people branch out into other fitness related things. I also think that the economy and the perception of economic uncertainty plays a role like it did in the 2000 and 2008 numbers. That being said, I think it will keep growing and it seems to be getting more and more popular amongst the 40+ crowd around me. I do see some people shifting more into just running, cycling or other stuff that can be just as rewarding with lower costs though as the registration fees are lower and the need to travel as much for the big races like in Ironman isn't there so travel costs are negligent. Good points here, the average income in the US (taking inflation into consideration) has gone down over the last 4 or 5 years. That makes it difficult for people to indulge in this expensive sport. I believe the membership fee is $48? So you have do at least 4 races for it to be worth it. Personally 4 or 5 races is all can get in in 1 year so if the fee goes up again I'll be buying the single day passes. Yeah up from $30 just a couple years ago. The USAT numbers show growth *despite* that price increase. And many casual / occasional racers are just going to pay the 1-day license fee instead of getting a full USAT membership. So I think the OP's premise is false. I don't know about that. I think that may be true for someone doing their very first race.....but I'd say quite a few people decide to do more races after the first one and go ahead and buy a full membership. I'd like to see some statistics one way or another, because that's just a guess on both our parts. |
2014-06-25 1:44 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 5755 | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by spudone Originally posted by mike761 Originally posted by JAYCT I think you are forecasting trends with insufficient data. The report indicates growth in all but last year: http://www.usatriathlon.org/about-multisport/demographics.aspxAm I missing something? There were a couple of declining years followed by a bounce back. Re: Adult and boomer participation. Triathlon is really a first world self-indulgent and time consuming sport for people with high disposable income as it relates to bucket listers who are just looking to finish an Ironman. I think growth has limited market potential based on disposable income and competing endurance events that are a lot cheaper as people branch out into other fitness related things. I also think that the economy and the perception of economic uncertainty plays a role like it did in the 2000 and 2008 numbers. That being said, I think it will keep growing and it seems to be getting more and more popular amongst the 40+ crowd around me. I do see some people shifting more into just running, cycling or other stuff that can be just as rewarding with lower costs though as the registration fees are lower and the need to travel as much for the big races like in Ironman isn't there so travel costs are negligent. Good points here, the average income in the US (taking inflation into consideration) has gone down over the last 4 or 5 years. That makes it difficult for people to indulge in this expensive sport. I believe the membership fee is $48? So you have do at least 4 races for it to be worth it. Personally 4 or 5 races is all can get in in 1 year so if the fee goes up again I'll be buying the single day passes. Yeah up from $30 just a couple years ago. The USAT numbers show growth *despite* that price increase. And many casual / occasional racers are just going to pay the 1-day license fee instead of getting a full USAT membership. So I think the OP's premise is false. I don't know about that. I think that may be true for someone doing their very first race.....but I'd say quite a few people decide to do more races after the first one and go ahead and buy a full membership. I'd like to see some statistics one way or another, because that's just a guess on both our parts. Yes, it's good to be a card-carrying member of this crazy community. Membership has it's privileges It's not a cheap sport. That being said, my club has done a try-a-try for new members, and everyone pitched in to get people what they needed to get started. It's amazing how much stuff you accumulate. Honestly, to a great extent the sport is immune to economic fluctuations. Go look at the transition area of any triathlon and you'll see what I mean. With 1400 people at Philly Tri (Oly distance) last weekend I bet there was well over $3MM in hardware. I know I did my part! |
2014-06-25 2:36 PM in reply to: GMAN 19030 |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Originally posted by GMAN 19030 I think Dan Empfield's article was cited already but in that piece and some others that he wrote he mentioned overall adult participation in the USA isn't down that much but that participants per race is down dramatically. Too many races sprung up out of the heyday from 2008-2011 because everyone thought they could make a buck. You're seeing the market correct itself this year (and to a degree last year) with a lot of races going under. That's a good thing in the long run. My thoughts for the future are:
I agree with most of what you say, but of course I disagree on some. Good point on participants and races, I didn't look at that comparison. With many races shying away from USAT sanctioning, I think the # of participants becomes more and more skewed, not the best indicator. I agree that less races is better in the long run. Higher quality product, more competitiveness, etc. Of course it has its downsides as well, but for a niche sport I think it will serve better. Local races will continue to disappear and/or the bad ones will be weeded out. RD's need to be smart and creative with their races and how to attract racers. Yup, youth triathlon is where the future is. Expose the sport, develop the kids and naturally the sport will be taken care of over time. WTC will probably always rule long course racing but sometimes greed is bad, and we all know that WTC is greedy. Since it is up for sale, if it gets in the wrong hands and is managed improperly it could have a downfall. Before we say Challenge will be done by 2016, lets remember that when Challenge tok over Roth it saw a dramatic decrease in participants, and look at Roth now. Of course you can't make that same comparison to NA and their venues, but history sometimes does repeat itself. Rome wasn't built overnight. As for HITS, they are fine. Mark isn't in it to pad is already overstuffed wallet on the horse racing side. He wants to expand and try a new venture and give athletes another option. If anything they are not losing much money per race since they have such a cost effective model. Yep you will never see 2000 athletes at a HIT event, but I don't think that is their goal. REV 3 isn't trying to compete with WTC, they (as you said) are trying to find their own niche and build off that. I think they have found that niche, now they just need to be a bit better with expansion, race locations. Dropping the pro purse will help dramatically, apparently pro's really do not care too much about prize purses and Andrew Messick knows this. Curious to see how the tri-specific stores work out in the long run. Local store here in Madison (Endurance House) has grown rapidly (Atlanta, Oceanside, Boulder) in the past couple years and has seen tremendous success in those locations, will see what happens as time progresses, as long as the market is in place those stores should be fine with a good business model. Universal rules are probably the best thing for the sport. Helps build a firmer foundation and gives the sport more legitimacy. |
2014-06-25 2:41 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Why are "many races shying away from USAT sanctioning"?....if that's true. |
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2014-06-25 2:56 PM in reply to: #5016749 |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? I don't know the answer but I am curious as well. My guess.... Money Logistics Requirements Insurance |
2014-06-25 3:02 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Originally posted by bcagle25 I don't know the answer but I am curious as well. My guess.... Money Logistics Requirements Insurance Is there data to show how many races they have lost sanctioning of? |
2014-06-25 3:10 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 5755 | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by bcagle25 I don't know the answer but I am curious as well. My guess.... Money Logistics Requirements Insurance Is there data to show how many races they have lost sanctioning of? Well, according to USAT, 2013 was a record year for number of sanctioned events. Other than swim club events, I can't think of a single triathlon in my area that isn't USAT sanctioned. |
2014-06-25 3:16 PM in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by bcagle25 I don't know the answer but I am curious as well. My guess.... Money Logistics Requirements Insurance Is there data to show how many races they have lost sanctioning of? Well, according to USAT, 2013 was a record year for number of sanctioned events. Other than swim club events, I can't think of a single triathlon in my area that isn't USAT sanctioned. Yeah, so where does the idea coem from that races are shying away from sanctioning? I can tell you this....I've done local races, WTC races, 3 Discipline races, Ultramax races, blah,blah,blah.....the races under the USAT banner at Nationals in draft legal and AG Nationals are top notch....some of the best races I've ever been to/participated in. |
2014-06-25 3:25 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 5755 | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by bcagle25 I don't know the answer but I am curious as well. My guess.... Money Logistics Requirements Insurance Is there data to show how many races they have lost sanctioning of? Well, according to USAT, 2013 was a record year for number of sanctioned events. Other than swim club events, I can't think of a single triathlon in my area that isn't USAT sanctioned. Yeah, so where does the idea coem from that races are shying away from sanctioning? I can tell you this....I've done local races, WTC races, 3 Discipline races, Ultramax races, blah,blah,blah.....the races under the USAT banner at Nationals in draft legal and AG Nationals are top notch....some of the best races I've ever been to/participated in. Don't ask me, I agree entirely with you. I took care of getting my tri club sanctioned, and we got our insurance through them, can't imagine not going through them. You ever ask them a rules question? You get a personal and detailed answer back quickly. USAT is a well run organization. |
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2014-06-25 3:55 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Originally posted by bcagle25 WTC will probably always rule long course racing but sometimes greed is bad, and we all know that WTC is greedy. Since it is up for sale, if it gets in the wrong hands and is managed improperly it could have a downfall. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. |
2014-06-25 4:19 PM in reply to: 0 |
1660 | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? I'd sort of agree with the AGer trend toward the longer stuff. Part of it is def the WTC marketing with the Kona IM brand, but honestly as well, when you do a 5-6hr HIM or a 10-15hr IM, just saying you did that length race is a 'big deal' to most nonathletes. Racing a sprint for an hour, or an Oly for 2:30-3hrs, while often even more agonizing in terms of pain intensity than the long stuff, just doesn't have that 'wow that's a crazy distance' sound that like it or not, a lot of AGers want when they say they're triathletes. It's simply too obscure to expect a nontriathlete to know the significance of a "2hr olympic distance triathlon", but any nonathlete knows that doing S/B/R for 14 hours sounds ridiculously hard (even though the 2hr Oly result is orders of magnitude superior.) Until short-court racing is popular in the US and more well known in its own right, I don't think it's going to change. Edited by yazmaster 2014-06-25 4:20 PM |
2014-06-25 4:25 PM in reply to: JohnnyKay |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Not sure if my hometown is any indication, but the local tri club has disbanded and the shop that sponsored it has closed. It seems odd to me that a town that bills itself as "Running Capital of the World" cannot sustain a tri shop and club. I attended some club activities when in town, but numbers were always pretty small. I do meet other triathletes at master's swim and local races, but it surprises me that tri has not taken off more than it has. The town has had a very active cycle club and master's swim program for decades, as well as countless running groups, but somehow tri seems more of an individual endeavor. My guess is that economics are part of it--times are hard and it's (at least perceived as) an expensive sport. Running has been through the same evolution in my 35 years in the sport--first as something that only a few crazies did; later a boom and an era when the marathon seemed to be on everyone's bucket list. Probably a lot of people started running who either had no intention of sticking with the sport long-term or weren't really physically or mentally suited for it. Those people drifted away through injuries or losing interest, but you still have plenty of people running today and a good variety of events in most places, including some that "old guard" like me might consider downright silly--mud runs, color runs, and the like. I wouldn't be crushed if tri evolved in that direction, with elite development for youth, maybe fewer huge mass events and ironman hoopla, but a greater range of local, smaller-scale multi-sport events for people who take a more casual approach, or for those who consider themselves primarily one-sport athletes but occasionally venture into multi-sport, which I think is the situation here. |
2014-06-25 5:21 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 1986 Cypress, TX | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? There are two tri specific shops in Houston. One has been around for a long time. The other just three years or so. Neither will be in business this time next year. Edited by GMAN 19030 2014-06-25 5:21 PM |
2014-06-25 5:52 PM in reply to: GMAN 19030 |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Originally posted by GMAN 19030 There are two tri specific shops in Houston. One has been around for a long time. The other just three years or so. Neither will be in business this time next year. And yet the tri specific shop I mentioned earlier (Endurance House) literally just announced another opening today (In Milwaukee), which brings their collective total to I believe now 6 with 2 in Madison. Questions is, do the Houston shops have poor business models, or is the market not in need of one? |
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2014-06-25 5:53 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by BrianRunsPhilly Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by bcagle25 I don't know the answer but I am curious as well. My guess.... Money Logistics Requirements Insurance Is there data to show how many races they have lost sanctioning of? Well, according to USAT, 2013 was a record year for number of sanctioned events. Other than swim club events, I can't think of a single triathlon in my area that isn't USAT sanctioned. Yeah, so where does the idea coem from that races are shying away from sanctioning? I can tell you this....I've done local races, WTC races, 3 Discipline races, Ultramax races, blah,blah,blah.....the races under the USAT banner at Nationals in draft legal and AG Nationals are top notch....some of the best races I've ever been to/participated in. I have no data just going from what I see. In Wisconsin, some races lost their USAT sanctioning, others choose not to have it, and some have gone to get their USAT sanctioning. |
2014-06-25 6:44 PM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Originally posted by bcagle25 I have no data just going from what I see. In Wisconsin, some races lost their USAT sanctioning, others choose not to have it, and some have gone to get their USAT sanctioning. What would be the consequence of a WTC race not being USAT sanctioned ? I know there is an insurance issue but I suspect WTC could get insurance ? Is there an advantage for WTC ? Is there an advantage for participants ? |
2014-06-25 7:04 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 1986 Cypress, TX | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Originally posted by bcagle25 Questions is, do the Houston shops have poor business models, or is the market not in need of one? One has a poor business model. The other is more or less a victim of the market (with some other issues at play). Edited by GMAN 19030 2014-06-25 7:06 PM |
2014-06-25 11:45 PM in reply to: GMAN 19030 |
Member 763 | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? From what I see, triathlon looks to be in good shape. I agree that there may be too many races, and perhaps some 'restructuring' should occur, but I don't think that's a bad thing. As for USAT memberships, not sure that's a perfect measure. I only do 2-3 races per year and as a result, just pay the day license. It's cheaper that way. And I generally focus on long course race - last year just HIM, and this year one HIM and one IM. I guess I may be part of the problem that the OP raised, but oh well. |
2014-06-26 6:26 AM in reply to: yazmaster |
Pro 5755 | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Originally posted by yazmaster I'd sort of agree with the AGer trend toward the longer stuff. Part of it is def the WTC marketing with the Kona IM brand, but honestly as well, when you do a 5-6hr HIM or a 10-15hr IM, just saying you did that length race is a 'big deal' to most nonathletes. Racing a sprint for an hour, or an Oly for 2:30-3hrs, while often even more agonizing in terms of pain intensity than the long stuff, just doesn't have that 'wow that's a crazy distance' sound that like it or not, a lot of AGers want when they say they're triathletes. It's simply too obscure to expect a nontriathlete to know the significance of a "2hr olympic distance triathlon", but any nonathlete knows that doing S/B/R for 14 hours sounds ridiculously hard (even though the 2hr Oly result is orders of magnitude superior.) Until short-court racing is popular in the US and more well known in its own right, I don't think it's going to change. Maybe it's a regional thing, but I disagree. Sprint and Olympic distance races are enormously popular around here. There are 3 or 4 companies running events, primarily short course but also half distance. WTC wasn't even a factor until they decided to launch IM 70.3 Princeton this year, and they are doing that in partnership with a local company, CGI Racing. I'd argue the sport is the sport is growing because short-course races are so accessible. Nearly all of us got started because someone talked us into doing a sprint, and we fell in love with the sport. There is at least one race within an hour's drive every weekend during the season. They are always full. How is that not popular? And honestly, who cares what a non-triathlete thinks about the sport? Are we here to have fun and challenge ourselves, or to impress others? Yes, IM Kona is THE prestige race in our sport, but again, you ask most non-triathletes about it and you'll get a blank stare. |
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2014-06-26 8:07 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Veteran 1100 Dayton | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Originally posted by Left Brain Why are "many races shying away from USAT sanctioning"?....if that's true. I don't know why race companies aren't having them sanctioned, but I've raced races that are non-USAT sanctioned. Not many, but they're out there. |
2014-06-26 8:10 AM in reply to: yazmaster |
Veteran 1100 Dayton | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Originally posted by yazmaster I'd sort of agree with the AGer trend toward the longer stuff. Part of it is def the WTC marketing with the Kona IM brand, but honestly as well, when you do a 5-6hr HIM or a 10-15hr IM, just saying you did that length race is a 'big deal' to most nonathletes. Racing a sprint for an hour, or an Oly for 2:30-3hrs, while often even more agonizing in terms of pain intensity than the long stuff, just doesn't have that 'wow that's a crazy distance' sound that like it or not, a lot of AGers want when they say they're triathletes. It's simply too obscure to expect a nontriathlete to know the significance of a "2hr olympic distance triathlon", but any nonathlete knows that doing S/B/R for 14 hours sounds ridiculously hard (even though the 2hr Oly result is orders of magnitude superior.) Until short-court racing is popular in the US and more well known in its own right, I don't think it's going to change. Just about all my non-triathlon friends think ANY triathlon distance is crazy. All that seems to matter in their mind is the word triathlon. They have no idea of the different distances. |
2014-06-26 8:22 AM in reply to: BrianRunsPhilly |
Veteran 2297 Great White North | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? I would disagree that Kona is the prestiege event in triathlon. Maybe 14 years ago it was. The most recognizable names in the sport come the best at the Olympics now. How many Canadians can name off Peter Reid, Heather Fuhr, Lori Bowden or the Puntous twins as Canadians who have won at Kona. Simon Whitfield on the other hand is constantly year over year in the media. |
2014-06-26 8:32 AM in reply to: simpsonbo |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Where is the sport headed? Originally posted by simpsonbo I would disagree that Kona is the prestiege event in triathlon. Maybe 14 years ago it was. The most recognizable names in the sport come the best at the Olympics now. How many Canadians can name off Peter Reid, Heather Fuhr, Lori Bowden or the Puntous twins as Canadians who have won at Kona. Simon Whitfield on the other hand is constantly year over year in the media. Go to Kona and get back to me on which is the prestige event, check out the expo. All triathlon business plan their product unveils around Kona, media thrives on Kona, spectators go to Kona just for a vacation to watch the race. etc. ITU Grand Finale which had an awesome finish last year was hardly noticed by many. But I would say it might be different in Canada then the U.S. In the U.S. everyone knows who all the big Kona people are, few could name any ITU guys outside of the Brownlee's and Gomez. |
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