Taking workout with you on the bike (Page 2)

We do the "go until you feel like you are going to puke and then slow down until you feel better, repeat" workout.....usually for about an hour.  Seems to work OK.

Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by AdventureBear  PS Someday the 5 x 3' will be part of the warmup...the main set will feel even harder.

Just how hard do you having people do the 3' intervals in such a case?

I do something like the pattern listed earlier for the first set, but well up in Z5, which is why I was thinking that was the primary part of the main set. I probably could have clarified more with "very hard" instead of just leaving it at "hard". Then the later 20' would be additional sweet spot work as that tends to be somewhere around the Z3/Z4 border (and it can still be rather challenging after busting hard on the first part!). I tend to see more work at done at this level if it was the primary part and less of the earlier work. That many shorter interval seemed like a lot to get things warmed up for the later part. I like taking more than most and that would be well past what I'd do.

it's a matter of total training stress within a workout. 5 x 3' of Vo2 max is a stiff main set, but still only 15' of VO2 effort. Advanced Vo2 workouts can involve 30-40' max for mere mortals. When building training stress over time no matter how hard you go on the 3' efforts with 2' rest, it's still going to be a max of 15' of work at something slightly over threshold. Hard? Yes for sure. But there is always another step to go to. Just pointing out that including a 5x3' hard effort (2' rest) in a warmup isn't unrealistic depending on what total stress you're going for. Cyclocross racing for example, you almost need that before the main race because you have to hit it totally opened up from the start.

Sufferfest Revolver is only 15' (ok really 16) minutes of VO2 work, but it's one of the hardest workouts they have.

What does a workout with 40' worth of VO2 look like?

Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by AdventureBear  PS Someday the 5 x 3' will be part of the warmup...the main set will feel even harder.

Just how hard do you having people do the 3' intervals in such a case?

I do something like the pattern listed earlier for the first set, but well up in Z5, which is why I was thinking that was the primary part of the main set. I probably could have clarified more with "very hard" instead of just leaving it at "hard". Then the later 20' would be additional sweet spot work as that tends to be somewhere around the Z3/Z4 border (and it can still be rather challenging after busting hard on the first part!). I tend to see more work at done at this level if it was the primary part and less of the earlier work. That many shorter interval seemed like a lot to get things warmed up for the later part. I like taking more than most and that would be well past what I'd do.

it's a matter of total training stress within a workout. 5 x 3' of Vo2 max is a stiff main set, but still only 15' of VO2 effort. Advanced Vo2 workouts can involve 30-40' max for mere mortals. When building training stress over time no matter how hard you go on the 3' efforts with 2' rest, it's still going to be a max of 15' of work at something slightly over threshold. Hard? Yes for sure. But there is always another step to go to. Just pointing out that including a 5x3' hard effort (2' rest) in a warmup isn't unrealistic depending on what total stress you're going for. Cyclocross racing for example, you almost need that before the main race because you have to hit it totally opened up from the start.

Oh, ok. So you were coming at this from a much broader sense of cycling? I was looking more from someone earlier on in his training and as a blend of a decent workout, but not too overbearing. I've seen some things in the back of books like T&R w/a Powermeter that are just mind-boggling to someone with more of a TT emphasis. One that stuck out was 8 x 1' @150%, 1' rec to "open things up" and then get to the main workout. My power profile is so wrong to even complete that part! For other types of racing they would definitely need it.

Originally posted by msteiner

Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by AdventureBear  PS Someday the 5 x 3' will be part of the warmup...the main set will feel even harder.

Just how hard do you having people do the 3' intervals in such a case?

I do something like the pattern listed earlier for the first set, but well up in Z5, which is why I was thinking that was the primary part of the main set. I probably could have clarified more with "very hard" instead of just leaving it at "hard". Then the later 20' would be additional sweet spot work as that tends to be somewhere around the Z3/Z4 border (and it can still be rather challenging after busting hard on the first part!). I tend to see more work at done at this level if it was the primary part and less of the earlier work. That many shorter interval seemed like a lot to get things warmed up for the later part. I like taking more than most and that would be well past what I'd do.

it's a matter of total training stress within a workout. 5 x 3' of Vo2 max is a stiff main set, but still only 15' of VO2 effort. Advanced Vo2 workouts can involve 30-40' max for mere mortals. When building training stress over time no matter how hard you go on the 3' efforts with 2' rest, it's still going to be a max of 15' of work at something slightly over threshold. Hard? Yes for sure. But there is always another step to go to. Just pointing out that including a 5x3' hard effort (2' rest) in a warmup isn't unrealistic depending on what total stress you're going for. Cyclocross racing for example, you almost need that before the main race because you have to hit it totally opened up from the start.

Sufferfest Revolver is only 15' (ok really 16) minutes of VO2 work, but it's one of the hardest workouts they have.

What does a workout with 40' worth of VO2 look like?

For me, I'd do the original 5 x 3'(2') up around 112-115% or so. Maybe a little higher sometimes, but this tends to be more repeatable. If I dropped that to about 108% then I could do more intervals in that pattern. Maybe twice as many? Still working within the >105-120% I've seen for Z5. The cyclocross athletes will have a different profile and could likely do more still, bigger intervals, or work at a higher level. Kind of a fun one to figure out with the varying relationship, but I've been trying to at least be sure of getting above 105% when I want to target VO2 more specifically.

ETA: And I think Revolver tends to get up into anaerobic some as it's often past 120%, some going past 130% for all of them.

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by msteiner

Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by AdventureBear  PS Someday the 5 x 3' will be part of the warmup...the main set will feel even harder.

Just how hard do you having people do the 3' intervals in such a case?

I do something like the pattern listed earlier for the first set, but well up in Z5, which is why I was thinking that was the primary part of the main set. I probably could have clarified more with "very hard" instead of just leaving it at "hard". Then the later 20' would be additional sweet spot work as that tends to be somewhere around the Z3/Z4 border (and it can still be rather challenging after busting hard on the first part!). I tend to see more work at done at this level if it was the primary part and less of the earlier work. That many shorter interval seemed like a lot to get things warmed up for the later part. I like taking more than most and that would be well past what I'd do.

it's a matter of total training stress within a workout. 5 x 3' of Vo2 max is a stiff main set, but still only 15' of VO2 effort. Advanced Vo2 workouts can involve 30-40' max for mere mortals. When building training stress over time no matter how hard you go on the 3' efforts with 2' rest, it's still going to be a max of 15' of work at something slightly over threshold. Hard? Yes for sure. But there is always another step to go to. Just pointing out that including a 5x3' hard effort (2' rest) in a warmup isn't unrealistic depending on what total stress you're going for. Cyclocross racing for example, you almost need that before the main race because you have to hit it totally opened up from the start.

Sufferfest Revolver is only 15' (ok really 16) minutes of VO2 work, but it's one of the hardest workouts they have.

What does a workout with 40' worth of VO2 look like?

For me, I'd do the original 5 x 3'(2') up around 112-115% or so. Maybe a little higher sometimes, but this tends to be more repeatable. If I dropped that to about 108% then I could do more intervals in that pattern. Maybe twice as many? Still working within the >105-120% I've seen for Z5. The cyclocross athletes will have a different profile and could likely do more still, bigger intervals, or work at a higher level. Kind of a fun one to figure out with the varying relationship, but I've been trying to at least be sure of getting above 105% when I want to target VO2 more specifically.

ETA: And I think Revolver tends to get up into anaerobic some as it's often past 120%, some going past 130% for all of them.

Yeah I guess hanging around at 105-110% doing 40 minutes worth is doable.  You're right about Revolver, I think.  Looking back at it they go about 30 watts above the peak of what is VO2 for me.

I didn't mean it in the complete literal sense.  I meant it as ride your intervals and sweet spots but just keep the task simple enough that it doesn't require a photographic memory or taping a list of instructions to your bike.

That's why I feel the long bike ride should just be about riding and leave the interval and very structured workouts to the indoor trainer where it's much easier to follow a list of workout instructions.

We have a 4 mile dedicated bike loop 2 miles from the house.....we do outdoor intervals as long as the weather holds. 

Hill repeats, when available.

When I do intervals, it's usually in the winter on the trainer. If the workout is too much for me to remember when I'm out on the road, then it's not a workout I want to do on the road.

Our area is not particularly bike friendly.....but just outside that 4 mile closed loop is the entrance to the park, one of the favorite strava KOM's in the area.....we do repeats there too.  It's actually a perfect place for a bike workout all the way around.  Can't call it a fun place to ride, but it builds a nice engine.

I ride 4x per week but only one of those rides is outdoors.  It's less of an administrative pain in the butt riding on the trainer as I have to get everything ready, drive 20 minutes each way, and all that when I ride outdoors.  It's also 95-110 degrees outside during the summer which makes riding outdoors miserable.

That was more for Josh, look at his location. Certainly understand not having availability, considering my location! There are some hills that are challenging to get up, but they're so short. Most everything is well under a minute. Can make them hard, but not the kind of hard I'm looking for. There are a handful within a big radius that might take a couple minutes, but I prefer longer still. These also tend to not have good areas to just keep going hard afterward either.

Similar here. Trainer is so much more convenient for weekday workouts. I'd have to go a long ways to reach good areas to do them. Even then, they would still tend to be shorter ones. Not really interested in driving out either.

I think similar on the complexity of the workout and how it wasn't as specific as would be preferred, but at the same time it did seem like more of a beginner or starter hard workout to help learn some things, which I think you also noticed. Having only 5 intervals isn't as daunting for someone to figure out, similar with having 3' intervals instead of 5-6'. The 15' total there is still certainly worth something. *I* tend to do a bit more for a VO2 focused workout as well, usually just doing a combination of this size if I've had a lot of other stronger work going and I want to touch on this area a bit. I haven't found the 2' recoveries to be too tough to recover from to hit above the 105%, and usually above 110% and don't think my VO2 is necessarily that strong relative to FTP. That seems to be about what you do, but less of it? For someone who hasn't done work like this before it'll be tough, but should get used to it soon. Does that seem more like threshold, or even a no-man's-land compared to what you might do? 

The vagueness of the 20' is why I thought it was more bonus work, to be done as able. Even though the 3' intervals didn't have the specificity I use they still seemed more specific than the 20'. This seemed like another learning opportunity, to see how worn out he was from the first part. And a chance to get some more stronger work into the time he has available. I knew from previous discussions that he can be rather limited on time.

On the 8 x 1'@150% (and some of the other workouts about this) *I* get why we should work on these other areas above threshold, but still trying to understand about why it would be necessary to build it that much relative to FTP. Higher is better, but how much higher before gains become limited and time would be better spent looking more directly at FTP (or something else)? The 8 x 1' I saw only had 1' recovery time. I can't do 150% on that. With several minutes between each instead of just 1 min, however, it looks much more possible, though still very hard.

I've seen the blocked 30"/30" workouts before and the look rather interesting, but haven't found enough guidelines towards how to make them work. Their flexibility was remarked on, but to someone not as familiar with them that same flexibility appears as being vague. Not too different from someone like the OP looking at his workout. Where should the highs come in around and where should the lows be? Both would seem to have some sort of range, but numbers were thrown around without much reason why. Or rather what they were based on.

And congrats to the TT'er!