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2016-06-17 3:26 PM

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Subject: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"
While I'm still on my journey to master freestyle (and FYI: it's going super well), I thought I would share this with you and seek some feedback/discussion. Somebody in my open water Facebook group mentioned it work well for waves.

http://nautil.us/issue/37/currents/is-this-new-swim-stroke-the-fast...


2016-06-17 5:06 PM
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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"

It's well known that the dolphin kick is the fastest way through the water, and it's FAR from new....that's why there are regulations on how far it can be used on any lap.  The swim kids do thousands of yards of dolphin kicking.  In addition to being fast through the water it builds phenomenal core strength, balance,  timing, and "feel" for the water.  Everyone who is on a path to learning how to swim should spend some time on them........virtually nobody does.



Edited by Left Brain 2016-06-17 5:07 PM
2016-06-17 5:42 PM
in reply to: marysia83

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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"

50m backstroke underwater dolphin kick - faster than the world record.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EFjQDgIfKM

2016-06-17 8:42 PM
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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"

Originally posted by marysia83 While I'm still on my journey to master freestyle (and FYI: it's going super well), I thought I would share this with you and seek some feedback/discussion. Somebody in my open water Facebook group mentioned it work well for waves. http://nautil.us/issue/37/currents/is-this-new-swim-stroke-the-fast...

Yeah, that's all well and good, but you aren't going to use that for a 750m Sprint Triathlon Swim, let alone a 3,800m Ironman swim.  It's one thing for a competitive swimmer to use a dolphin kick off the wall in a 50, 100, or 200 race.  When they get done, at the very least they are going to have HOURS before they have to get in the water again.  If you use this during a triathlon, you are going to immediately find yourself in oxygen debt and rapidly be anaerobic - at which point you're pretty well cooked for the swim and likely would have sabotaged your entire race.  Even a VERY good swimmer would probably not be recovered before they got to T1, and then you have a cycling and run leg left.  It's nice to look at, it's cool to observe how fast it appears to be, but it really has no application to triathlon.



Edited by k9car363 2016-06-17 8:43 PM
2016-06-17 8:51 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"
Originally posted by Left Brain

It's well known that the dolphin kick is the fastest way through the water, and it's FAR from new....that's why there are regulations on how far it can be used on any lap.  The swim kids do thousands of yards of dolphin kicking.  In addition to being fast through the water it builds phenomenal core strength, balance,  timing, and "feel" for the water.  Everyone who is on a path to learning how to swim should spend some time on them........virtually nobody does.




That'll certainly help you in the pool, but what about in a triathlon?
2016-06-17 9:37 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"
Originally posted by 3mar

Originally posted by Left Brain

It's well known that the dolphin kick is the fastest way through the water, and it's FAR from new....that's why there are regulations on how far it can be used on any lap.  The swim kids do thousands of yards of dolphin kicking.  In addition to being fast through the water it builds phenomenal core strength, balance,  timing, and "feel" for the water.  Everyone who is on a path to learning how to swim should spend some time on them........virtually nobody does.




That'll certainly help you in the pool, but what about in a triathlon?


IT makes you a better swimmer, helps build strength in the hips & core, and helps you understand the water better. it's also great for starts, through waves.


2016-06-17 10:34 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"
Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Left Brain

It's well known that the dolphin kick is the fastest way through the water, and it's FAR from new....that's why there are regulations on how far it can be used on any lap.  The swim kids do thousands of yards of dolphin kicking.  In addition to being fast through the water it builds phenomenal core strength, balance,  timing, and "feel" for the water.  Everyone who is on a path to learning how to swim should spend some time on them........virtually nobody does.

That'll certainly help you in the pool, but what about in a triathlon?
Oh.....triathlon swimming is "special swimming" huh?
2016-06-18 6:38 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Left Brain

It's well known that the dolphin kick is the fastest way through the water, and it's FAR from new....that's why there are regulations on how far it can be used on any lap.  The swim kids do thousands of yards of dolphin kicking.  In addition to being fast through the water it builds phenomenal core strength, balance,  timing, and "feel" for the water.  Everyone who is on a path to learning how to swim should spend some time on them........virtually nobody does.

That'll certainly help you in the pool, but what about in a triathlon?
Oh.....triathlon swimming is "special swimming" huh?
Here we go..... Getting popcorn
2016-06-18 7:01 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Left Brain

It's well known that the dolphin kick is the fastest way through the water, and it's FAR from new....that's why there are regulations on how far it can be used on any lap.  The swim kids do thousands of yards of dolphin kicking.  In addition to being fast through the water it builds phenomenal core strength, balance,  timing, and "feel" for the water.  Everyone who is on a path to learning how to swim should spend some time on them........virtually nobody does.

That'll certainly help you in the pool, but what about in a triathlon?
Oh.....triathlon swimming is "special swimming" huh?


It's different. Just like road biking is different than triathlon biking. I'm not going to spend a bunch of time honing in my breast stroke, because there may be some ancillary benefits, but not the most efficient use of my time. Flip turns are very important in the pool, would you suggest that those are important in triathlon too? I mean, swimming is swimming right? This falls in that category for me.
2016-06-18 8:58 AM
in reply to: marysia83

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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"
You're 20 years behind. Known Misty a long time. She sat beside me on the plane after she broke her first world record in December 96.
2016-06-18 8:59 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"
Originally posted by 3mar
It's different. Just like road biking is different than triathlon biking.


More like doing wheelies is pretty cool when Peter Sagan does them, is sign you have good handling skills but of debatable value is a straight line 40km TT.


2016-06-18 9:00 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"
15 m off a pontoon start, why not if your a good kicker. Everyone else please don't hurt yourselves.
2016-06-18 1:01 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by 3mar It's different. Just like road biking is different than triathlon biking.
More like doing wheelies is pretty cool when Peter Sagan does them, is sign you have good handling skills but of debatable value is a straight line 40km TT.

Everything that helps bike handling or water feel is good to do.  No, you will never do them like pro cyclists or even club swimmers......but to say they have no value is ridiculous.....especially when you consider how bad most triathletes are at bike handling and swimming.

2016-06-18 1:13 PM
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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Left Brain

It's well known that the dolphin kick is the fastest way through the water, and it's FAR from new....that's why there are regulations on how far it can be used on any lap.  The swim kids do thousands of yards of dolphin kicking.  In addition to being fast through the water it builds phenomenal core strength, balance,  timing, and "feel" for the water.  Everyone who is on a path to learning how to swim should spend some time on them........virtually nobody does.

That'll certainly help you in the pool, but what about in a triathlon?
Oh.....triathlon swimming is "special swimming" huh?
It's different. Just like road biking is different than triathlon biking. I'm not going to spend a bunch of time honing in my breast stroke, because there may be some ancillary benefits, but not the most efficient use of my time. Flip turns are very important in the pool, would you suggest that those are important in triathlon too? I mean, swimming is swimming right? This falls in that category for me.

Yes, flip turns are absolutely beneficial for triathlon.  I had no idea triathlon cycling was special too!!  LMAO

You know, I spent a lot of money on coaches for my kid because he wanted to see how far he could go in triathlon.  I got him a SWIM coach and he wins triathlon swims.  I got him a CYCLING coach and he puts down bike splits among the fastest in any race, and usually the fastest..  I got him a run coach and his 5K time just steadily drops and he wins any AG triathlon run.  In fact......he is just about unbeatable in any AG sprint triathlon.  His swim, bike, and run coaches don't want anything to do with triathlon and don't know anything about it.  How does that happen if triathlon swimming and cycling are so different??

Here's a clue:  Triathlon is not special......and neither is the path to getting fast in any of the the three disciplines.

 



Edited by Left Brain 2016-06-18 1:22 PM
2016-06-18 4:58 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Left Brain

It's well known that the dolphin kick is the fastest way through the water, and it's FAR from new....that's why there are regulations on how far it can be used on any lap.  The swim kids do thousands of yards of dolphin kicking.  In addition to being fast through the water it builds phenomenal core strength, balance,  timing, and "feel" for the water.  Everyone who is on a path to learning how to swim should spend some time on them........virtually nobody does.

That'll certainly help you in the pool, but what about in a triathlon?
Oh.....triathlon swimming is "special swimming" huh?
It's different. Just like road biking is different than triathlon biking. I'm not going to spend a bunch of time honing in my breast stroke, because there may be some ancillary benefits, but not the most efficient use of my time. Flip turns are very important in the pool, would you suggest that those are important in triathlon too? I mean, swimming is swimming right? This falls in that category for me.

Yes, flip turns are absolutely beneficial for triathlon.  I had no idea triathlon cycling was special too!!  LMAO

You know, I spent a lot of money on coaches for my kid because he wanted to see how far he could go in triathlon.  I got him a SWIM coach and he wins triathlon swims.  I got him a CYCLING coach and he puts down bike splits among the fastest in any race, and usually the fastest..  I got him a run coach and his 5K time just steadily drops and he wins any AG triathlon run.  In fact......he is just about unbeatable in any AG sprint triathlon.  His swim, bike, and run coaches don't want anything to do with triathlon and don't know anything about it.  How does that happen if triathlon swimming and cycling are so different??

Here's a clue:  Triathlon is not special......and neither is the path to getting fast in any of the the three disciplines.

 




Well that's great for someone with A. tons of natural ability and B. tons of time. For the rest of us schlubs, our time is better spent not screwing around with dolphin kick. I get 6-9,000 meters a week. For a while I drank the cool aide and was doing a lot of IM, kick sets, drills etc. I didn't see much of anything out of it. The past 5 months I've done nothing but freestyle. Lots of 100s and 200s with limited rest and red lining as much as possible and have seen some significant gains. In the 3 hours I have for swimming, I'm not d*cking around dolphin kicking.
2016-06-18 9:13 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"
As Left Brain said, there are rules in USA Swimming (and Indiana H.S. and probably all the others too) as to when you can use the dolphin kick. In most cases, it's up to 15 meters off each wall. Most coaches seem to want you to do 4 or 5 kicks off each wall when swimming freestyle.

In my opinion, the main reason this isn't going to be real useful in triathlon is that you get the most benefit from this kick while underwater. While I can't recall ever trying it I would imagine it would be next to impossible to restart once you came up for a breath. Perhaps one or two strokes of butterfly and then dive back down would give you the momentum needed to get moving through the water.

USA Swimming just made a new rule after Lochte got DQed at a meet for doing the underwater dolphin kick on his back during the freestyle leg of an individual medley race. The new rule clarifies that you are not allowed to do a kick on your back on the freestyle leg of an IM. Before it wasn't specifically in the rules, so it was up to the judges.

As for swimming, I typically do about a third of my laps in a stroke other than freestyle. A lot of times it will be in the form of an individual medley. Since I am still losing weight during all this training, I feel if nothing else, the other strokes contribute to less weight for my bike to carry or legs to move.

J White


2016-06-18 11:32 PM
in reply to: Jwse30

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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"

If you want to race a FAST triathlon you have to have a fast swim, a fast bike, and a fast run.  The path to that is looking at what fast people do in each discipline and training like they do.  You can pretend triathlon makes swimming, biking, and running special somehow......but it doesn't.  Analyze it all you want, make it as complicated as you need it to be while you pretend that you're doing something special........in the end it's pretty simple.  Swim fast, bike fast, run fast.  All the rest is just excuses.

2016-06-19 7:06 AM
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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"
It's not "special" it's different. Even within each discipline there are differences in training. A miler trains very differently than a marathoner. Isn't fast running fast running? Shouldn't they train the exact same way? How about someone specializing in butterfly vs 1,500? Do they train the exact same way? Isn't fast swimming fast swimming? No, they don't. Does Robert Forstermann train the same way that Lance Armstorng does ? Isn't fast cycling fast cycling? So if it's not the same in the same sport, why would it be blindly the same in a different sport? It's not the same.

Edited by 3mar 2016-06-19 7:06 AM
2016-06-19 8:29 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"
Originally posted by 3mar
For a while I drank the cool aide and was doing a lot of IM, kick sets, drills etc. I didn't see much of anything out of it.


When did you get the cool aid ?
2016-06-19 8:52 AM
in reply to: marysia83


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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"
Originally posted by marysia83

While I'm still on my journey to master freestyle (and FYI: it's going super well), I thought I would share this with you and seek some feedback/discussion. Somebody in my open water Facebook group mentioned it work well for waves.

http://nautil.us/issue/37/currents/is-this-new-swim-stroke-the-fast...


Not new.

You plan on holding your breath for 2.4 miles?

Many freedivers use monifins and dolphin kick to do this as well because it is very efficient, but that's a 6-20 minute breathup laying as still and relaxed as possible for a 3-5 min breath hold...

Next time you go to the pool, try swimming hard for 25 yards without breathing between strokes. Take a single breath at the wall and repeat. See how far you get.

In second thought, don't try that. I don't want anyone drowning.
2016-06-19 9:13 AM
in reply to: Left Brain


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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Left Brain
Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by Left Brain

It's well known that the dolphin kick is the fastest way through the water, and it's FAR from new....that's why there are regulations on how far it can be used on any lap.  The swim kids do thousands of yards of dolphin kicking.  In addition to being fast through the water it builds phenomenal core strength, balance,  timing, and "feel" for the water.  Everyone who is on a path to learning how to swim should spend some time on them........virtually nobody does.

That'll certainly help you in the pool, but what about in a triathlon?
Oh.....triathlon swimming is "special swimming" huh?
It's different. Just like road biking is different than triathlon biking. I'm not going to spend a bunch of time honing in my breast stroke, because there may be some ancillary benefits, but not the most efficient use of my time. Flip turns are very important in the pool, would you suggest that those are important in triathlon too? I mean, swimming is swimming right? This falls in that category for me.

Yes, flip turns are absolutely beneficial for triathlon.  I had no idea triathlon cycling was special too!!  LMAO

You know, I spent a lot of money on coaches for my kid because he wanted to see how far he could go in triathlon.  I got him a SWIM coach and he wins triathlon swims.  I got him a CYCLING coach and he puts down bike splits among the fastest in any race, and usually the fastest..  I got him a run coach and his 5K time just steadily drops and he wins any AG triathlon run.  In fact......he is just about unbeatable in any AG sprint triathlon.  His swim, bike, and run coaches don't want anything to do with triathlon and don't know anything about it.  How does that happen if triathlon swimming and cycling are so different??

Here's a clue:  Triathlon is not special......and neither is the path to getting fast in any of the the three disciplines.

 




Yeah, because road biking is exactly like tri cycling..

Aside from: strategy, teams with riders having different roles, points systems, kom points and time bonuses, bike geometry, riding in packs, the amount of climbing, tecnical courses, the handlebar/shifting setup, etc. etc etc etc etc(Yeah yeah yeah.. draft legal races have some of those blah blah blah).

That's why I only downhill mtn bike to train for IM races, because all biking is the same....


TT specialists don't win crits. Hill climb specialists dont usually win TT's, etc ad nauseum.


You are right that the path to getting fast isn't special, but if you think that time trial biking is not different than road racing or track cycljng and doesn't require different fine tuning, you are fooling yourself and probably hurting your kid's success. Sounds like the kiddo is studly anyways, but when you start taking a "one size fits all" approach to training and ignore the blatant differences between say, OWS and pool swimming, road racing vs time trial racing, xc running vs road, short v long distance, you are leaving very easy speed on the table.

If he is dominating ag events, you should travel him to arras with bigger races, see how he does in nats, etc. It could be a great experience. Some colleges are even giving scholarships for triathletes these days. I wish that had been the case back when I went to school.






2016-06-19 9:20 AM
in reply to: davejustdave

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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"

Originally posted by davejustdave .... You are right that the path to getting fast isn't special,  ....

I'm pretty sure this is LB's point...

2016-06-19 4:08 PM
in reply to: axteraa


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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by davejustdave .... You are right that the path to getting fast isn't special,  ....

I'm pretty sure this is LB's point...




Naw.

LB is convinciened he knows more than WR holders and olympic athletes.

He says swim training is all the same regardless of distance, xespite the fact the world's best don't seem to agree...

He seems to think that run training is the same too..

I guess that's why Bolt does the same training as kenyan marathoners.. oh... wait...

Same with cycling.

He maintains that how you work out should be the EXACT dame irrelevant of the distance or type of event within a discipline...

2016-06-19 4:43 PM
in reply to: #5187498


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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"
I think anything that gets you in the pool regularly and makes you think about what your doing will make you better.
It could be a little chicken or the egg...but either one can make a delicious meal.
I have halved my swim times from my start at this 4 years ago. Last winter I taught myself flip turns (probably terrible ones, but turns nonetheless). They don't make me faster, but I had to spend a lot of time in the pool thinking about it...and learning how to make things happen in the water to do it. I can also breathe to the left...or right...or both.
I'm sure if I spent enough time in a pool to learn this...and get my workouts in...I'd get faster.

I teach music and it's the same. Any hard tecinque work that involves constant thinking leads to far more improvement than "just playing music".


Did swim a distance PR today. 1.95 miles with a 2:00/100 consistent pace. As a 45 year old former fat guy, I'm chuffed.
2016-06-19 7:15 PM
in reply to: davejustdave

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Subject: RE: "Is This New Swim Stroke the Fastest Yet?"

Originally posted by davejustdave
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by davejustdave .... You are right that the path to getting fast isn't special,  ....

I'm pretty sure this is LB's point...

Naw. LB is convinciened he knows more than WR holders and olympic athletes. He says swim training is all the same regardless of distance, xespite the fact the world's best don't seem to agree... He seems to think that run training is the same too.. I guess that's why Bolt does the same training as kenyan marathoners.. oh... wait... Same with cycling. He maintains that how you work out should be the EXACT dame irrelevant of the distance or type of event within a discipline...

I don't think LB 'thinks' he knows more than WR Holders etc etc.  

But, in this case, he knows more than YOU! smh

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