General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Improving run Rss Feed  
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2017-08-31 1:40 AM

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612
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, Kronobergs lan
Subject: Improving run
So I had my best ever race (Sprint) last week, after putting a lot of training in this Summer, it paid off.

Looking at my times compared to others on that day, it looks like my run is the weakest link. Swim and bike are in par with the best ( that day, on that little village race. I know I probably don't compare to the better AG) but I lost 2 places in the run.

I was 2nd out of T1 after being 4th out of the water (love it that I gained 2 places at T1) and kept that position until halfway through the run when I got overtaken by 2 women with a much faster pace.
My run went well, I did not slow down, allowing them to catch me up (if anything, I went faster during the second half) but my pace is just much slower
6 min/km, ie 30 minutes for a 5k. Many girls (even those finishing after me) did it in 25 minutes or less.

So, how do I get from 6 to 5 min per km? More running, yes, but how? longer runs? more intervals? bearing in mind that the run is the sport where injuries are easier to get (for me anyway), I don't want to overdo it either.

Next race is in 9 months time and I really want to have improved my running by then. Any tips BT?

Or (this just occurred to me), do I try to get faster at swimming and biking instead? In other words, should you mainly focus on your strong points or your weak ones?


2017-08-31 1:48 AM
in reply to: Rollergirl


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Subject: RE: Improving run
Originally posted by Rollergirl

So I had my best ever race (Sprint) last week, after putting a lot of training in this Summer, it paid off.

Looking at my times compared to others on that day, it looks like my run is the weakest link. Swim and bike are in par with the best ( that day, on that little village race. I know I probably don't compare to the better AG) but I lost 2 places in the run.

I was 2nd out of T1 after being 4th out of the water (love it that I gained 2 places at T1) and kept that position until halfway through the run when I got overtaken by 2 women with a much faster pace.
My run went well, I did not slow down, allowing them to catch me up (if anything, I went faster during the second half) but my pace is just much slower
6 min/km, ie 30 minutes for a 5k. Many girls (even those finishing after me) did it in 25 minutes or less.

So, how do I get from 6 to 5 min per km? More running, yes, but how? longer runs? more intervals? bearing in mind that the run is the sport where injuries are easier to get (for me anyway), I don't want to overdo it either.

Next race is in 9 months time and I really want to have improved my running by then. Any tips BT?

Or (this just occurred to me), do I try to get faster at swimming and biking instead? In other words, should you mainly focus on your strong points or your weak ones?


You're going to get a million different responses...

My running hasn't really gone anywhere till recently. Typically I'd do around 30 - 40km a week, mostly moderate - high intensity. My 5 and 10km barely dropped over a year and were 20.50 and 42.30. Plus I was getting a lot of injuries because a lot of the training was high intensity. I wasn't getting the consistency. I changed to 80/20 running, 80$ easy, 20% hard and upped the volume from 40km to 70 -80. As I was doing mostly easy running, almost doubling the volume did not cause me more injuries, pain, muscle soreness etc in fact I am rarely sore. My 5km time has dropped to 19.47 and that's off mostly easy running 5.30min/km. So for me, increasing volume has been key.
2017-08-31 2:10 AM
in reply to: zedzded

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612
500100
, Kronobergs lan
Subject: RE: Improving run
Originally posted by zedzded

You're going to get a million different responses...



Yes, I am aware that it's probably different for everyone but I'd still like to hear from peoples' experience.

thanks for sharing yours

2017-08-31 5:13 AM
in reply to: Rollergirl

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Subject: RE: Improving run
Years ago I bought the book "Jack Daniels running formula". I followed the instructions in there and it paid off big time. I never got into anything above an Olympic so maybe this advice wouldn't apply to you but for me it took lots of speed work! You have to train the different aspects of running. I used to do 200 meter intervals where I would give a roughly 90 percent effort for that 200 meters (less than a minute of running) and then slow walk and recover for about 2 minutes. Then there were slightly longer intervals (3-5 minutes) that were still at a high pace(probably a 5K pace) and then between the intervals I would jog easy. Then there were threshold runs that would last up to 20 minutes with a really good warmup prior and a good cooldown after. And finally the recovery runs done at a painfully slow pace and also the longer runs to build endurance at an endurance pace. All of these different things helped to train economy, power, lactate threshold, and endurance. I had a very specific plan with very specific paces and did the hard runs on fresh legs so that I could push harder on those days. For me it resulted in a sub 20 5K and that was my best ever. I never ran in high school or anything like that before. Take a look at Jack Daniels running formula and see what you think.
2017-08-31 5:23 AM
in reply to: Rollergirl

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Champion
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Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Improving run
What is your weekly run frequency?

What is your volume (time and distance)?

What are you doing in each run?

What is your training pace?

Shane
2017-08-31 5:44 AM
in reply to: gsmacleod

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612
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Subject: RE: Improving run
Kermat, thanks, I'll have a look (nothing longer than sprint right now and Nothing longer than oly ever)

Shane, I try to run twice a week, once a half hour of varied intensity (my favourite is 1k slow/1k faster alternance for about 20 min) and once a longer run (currently 8k but increasing weekly)

My training pace is about 10 min/mile on my longer runs.




2017-08-31 6:05 AM
in reply to: Rollergirl

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Champion
9407
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Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
Subject: RE: Improving run
If you want to get faster, you need to run more. Keep it all easy while you build volume and also use frequency to build volume.

It looks like you're at about 13k right now so try three runs next week, 4k/4k/5k. Then the following week, 4k/5k/5k and so on. Once you get three runs consistently and at about 20k a week, split to 4 runs.

Again, all easy, just build volume and frequency. Once you get to 4-6 runs per week and the volume is about where you max out, then you can look at adding a little bit of intensity.

Shane
2017-08-31 6:47 AM
in reply to: Rollergirl

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Tacoma, Washington
Subject: RE: Improving run

Along with the above great advice, I'd recommend finding a trail network you could use for the majority of your run training. Getting off the pavement will help with injury prevention. And I find that it is more relaxing.

2017-08-31 7:31 AM
in reply to: briderdt

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612
500100
, Kronobergs lan
Subject: RE: Improving run
Thanks Shane that sounds manageable.
And yes, I do try to say away from the pavement as much as possible. I am lucky enough to be able to do that (at the moment, when it's dark until 8 in the morning and frpm 3pm it will be harder). Thanks Dave

2017-08-31 9:37 AM
in reply to: Rollergirl

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Gold member
Subject: RE: Improving run

In addition to the excellent run training advice, it is important that you're getting off the bike with lots of energy left.  So keeping up the bike fitness will continue to be key.    How did you feel once you got off the bike?  Ready to run or really fatigued?   Or somewhere in between?  It's normal to feel weird, but still run as well as  you hoped.    I've found in my years of triathlon that my best sprints were when I was training for something much longer.   To improve you will have to do more than the minimum, in all areas.

Once you have bike and run figured out, you could also save a minute or two with race strategy.  Do you need more or different nutrition?  Are you making fast transitions?  When you're running, how hard are you able to push yourself?   This might all seem extreme for a fun sport, but the people who place in their age group are also working on strategy.   

Happy training!   I imagine it's hard to get used to training when the days are so short.  Do you have a headlamp and reflective vest for nighttime running? 

2017-08-31 9:51 AM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl

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Highland Park, Illinois
Subject: RE: Improving run
What has helped me and some other runners was BarryP plan, and the idea of running MORE and running very SLOW. You run as slow as you can, so that you can have a conversation or sing. And you run as often as possible. This way you get faster (trust me!) and decrease risk of injury.

My time improved from 12 minutes per mile to 8. I did half marathon in 2:08, and I felt awesome. Diet and some training adjustments were the other factors, but let me tell you this: once I started running very slow and very often, I actually began to like running (I absolutely hated it before). I finish running with less fatigue, and I have not had any injuries since I've started following this idea.

I agree with other comments that when it comes to triathlon, your run will also depend on your cycling. So you want to have strong biking fitness as well.

Here are couple of links to BarryP and how it works:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2548394;search_string=b...
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1612485;search_string=r...


2017-08-31 1:19 PM
in reply to: Rollergirl

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McAlester, Oklahoma
Subject: RE: Improving run

Originally posted by Rollergirl So I had my best ever race (Sprint) last week, after putting a lot of training in this Summer, it paid off. Looking at my times compared to others on that day, it looks like my run is the weakest link. Swim and bike are in par with the best ( that day, on that little village race. I know I probably don't compare to the better AG) but I lost 2 places in the run. I was 2nd out of T1 after being 4th out of the water (love it that I gained 2 places at T1) and kept that position until halfway through the run when I got overtaken by 2 women with a much faster pace. My run went well, I did not slow down, allowing them to catch me up (if anything, I went faster during the second half) but my pace is just much slower 6 min/km, ie 30 minutes for a 5k. Many girls (even those finishing after me) did it in 25 minutes or less. So, how do I get from 6 to 5 min per km? More running, yes, but how? longer runs? more intervals? bearing in mind that the run is the sport where injuries are easier to get (for me anyway), I don't want to overdo it either. Next race is in 9 months time and I really want to have improved my running by then. Any tips BT? Or (this just occurred to me), do I try to get faster at swimming and biking instead? In other words, should you mainly focus on your strong points or your weak ones?

 

Well...I have to keep reminding myself NOT to compare myself to others.  I was a competitive runner for 30 years and have only been swimming and cycling for under 3 years.  When I go to a race I may be 3 minutes under my goal on the Swim and be in the bottom 50% for my age group and I may be 3 minutes over my goal on the run and in the top 5% of my age group.  

So...I try to not focus on what other people are doing and just focus on my own race.  

The things that I feel are important to a running program are 1) speed work outs 2) temp work outs 3) endurance work outs.  I plan to do one of each every week.  

My speed work outs are intervals short intervals.  The definition of "short" depends on what you are training for.  If you are training for a 5K run at the end of a sprint they may be 20 x 200m repeats, or 10 x 400m repeats.  If you are training for a longer run then they might be 3 x 1600m.  These should be a fast as you can do them with all the repeats being completed at about the same speed.

My tempo run are done close to race pace.  So if you are currently at a 6 min/km pace you might try a 7.5 km run where you do the first 1.5 km at an easy warm up pace then do 1 km and at 5:50, 500m at a recovery pace, 1km at 5:50 pace, 500m at recovery pace, etc until you complete the work out.  Your goal is to complete the work out. If you are successful two week in the row try ti do 5:45, then after completing that successfully twice try for 5:40, etc until you are down to 5:00.  (Just one example, there are many types of tempo runs and rotating types of tempo runs is usually best).

Long runs.  For a sprint triathlon I would want to build up to at least a 70 minute long run and ideally about a 90 minutes long run.  I start small.  I might do 60 minute one week, 65 minutes the next, then 70, 75.  After 4 weeks I go back the the distance of the first week (i.e. 60 minutes) then I alternate build weeks and easy weeks to where I would go to 80 minutes, then 60 minutes, then 85 minutes then 60 minutes, then 90 minutes.  You can play with this and start smaller (i.e. 45 minutes) and build longer, etc.

So my advise is three key work outs a week. You can do recover runs on other days to get more volume in if you have time, but if you are cycling and swimming three times a week too three run work outs are the minimum I would do if you want to improve.  If you want to do a run focused program you could go to 4 days of running.  I really don't have any magic recipes to make people faster runners. Just put the time in and enjoy the journey. 

2017-08-31 1:25 PM
in reply to: BikerGrrrl

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612
500100
, Kronobergs lan
Subject: RE: Improving run
Originally posted by BikerGrrrl

In addition to the excellent run training advice, it is important that you're getting off the bike with lots of energy left.  So keeping up the bike fitness will continue to be key.    How did you feel once you got off the bike?  Ready to run or really fatigued?   Or somewhere in between?  It's normal to feel weird, but still run as well as  you hoped.    I've found in my years of triathlon that my best sprints were when I was training for something much longer.   To improve you will have to do more than the minimum, in all areas.

Once you have bike and run figured out, you could also save a minute or two with race strategy.  Do you need more or different nutrition?  Are you making fast transitions?  When you're running, how hard are you able to push yourself?   This might all seem extreme for a fun sport, but the people who place in their age group are also working on strategy.   

Happy training!   I imagine it's hard to get used to training when the days are so short.  Do you have a headlamp and reflective vest for nighttime running? 




I felt great off the bike, better than all the time before in training or race. Did not feel weird at all (which was weird).

Good point about strategy.

Yes, I have a headlamp and reflective clothing, and I have to go out with the dog anyway so I hope I can run (if it's not too cold).
2017-08-31 1:26 PM
in reply to: marysia83

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612
500100
, Kronobergs lan
Subject: RE: Improving run
Originally posted by marysia83

What has helped me and some other runners was BarryP plan, and the idea of running MORE and running very SLOW. You run as slow as you can, so that you can have a conversation or sing. And you run as often as possible. This way you get faster (trust me!) and decrease risk of injury.

My time improved from 12 minutes per mile to 8. I did half marathon in 2:08, and I felt awesome. Diet and some training adjustments were the other factors, but let me tell you this: once I started running very slow and very often, I actually began to like running (I absolutely hated it before). I finish running with less fatigue, and I have not had any injuries since I've started following this idea.

I agree with other comments that when it comes to triathlon, your run will also depend on your cycling. So you want to have strong biking fitness as well.

Here are couple of links to BarryP and how it works:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2548394;search_string=b...
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1612485;search_string=r...


Thanks, I will have a look. I like the idea of running slow.
2017-08-31 1:34 PM
in reply to: BlueBoy26

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612
500100
, Kronobergs lan
Subject: RE: Improving run
Originally posted by BlueBoy26

Originally posted by Rollergirl So I had my best ever race (Sprint) last week, after putting a lot of training in this Summer, it paid off. Looking at my times compared to others on that day, it looks like my run is the weakest link. Swim and bike are in par with the best ( that day, on that little village race. I know I probably don't compare to the better AG) but I lost 2 places in the run. I was 2nd out of T1 after being 4th out of the water (love it that I gained 2 places at T1) and kept that position until halfway through the run when I got overtaken by 2 women with a much faster pace. My run went well, I did not slow down, allowing them to catch me up (if anything, I went faster during the second half) but my pace is just much slower 6 min/km, ie 30 minutes for a 5k. Many girls (even those finishing after me) did it in 25 minutes or less. So, how do I get from 6 to 5 min per km? More running, yes, but how? longer runs? more intervals? bearing in mind that the run is the sport where injuries are easier to get (for me anyway), I don't want to overdo it either. Next race is in 9 months time and I really want to have improved my running by then. Any tips BT? Or (this just occurred to me), do I try to get faster at swimming and biking instead? In other words, should you mainly focus on your strong points or your weak ones?

 

Well...I have to keep reminding myself NOT to compare myself to others.  I was a competitive runner for 30 years and have only been swimming and cycling for under 3 years.  When I go to a race I may be 3 minutes under my goal on the Swim and be in the bottom 50% for my age group and I may be 3 minutes over my goal on the run and in the top 5% of my age group.  

So...I try to not focus on what other people are doing and just focus on my own race.  

The things that I feel are important to a running program are 1) speed work outs 2) temp work outs 3) endurance work outs.  I plan to do one of each every week.  

My speed work outs are intervals short intervals.  The definition of "short" depends on what you are training for.  If you are training for a 5K run at the end of a sprint they may be 20 x 200m repeats, or 10 x 400m repeats.  If you are training for a longer run then they might be 3 x 1600m.  These should be a fast as you can do them with all the repeats being completed at about the same speed.

My tempo run are done close to race pace.  So if you are currently at a 6 min/km pace you might try a 7.5 km run where you do the first 1.5 km at an easy warm up pace then do 1 km and at 5:50, 500m at a recovery pace, 1km at 5:50 pace, 500m at recovery pace, etc until you complete the work out.  Your goal is to complete the work out. If you are successful two week in the row try ti do 5:45, then after completing that successfully twice try for 5:40, etc until you are down to 5:00.  (Just one example, there are many types of tempo runs and rotating types of tempo runs is usually best).

Long runs.  For a sprint triathlon I would want to build up to at least a 70 minute long run and ideally about a 90 minutes long run.  I start small.  I might do 60 minute one week, 65 minutes the next, then 70, 75.  After 4 weeks I go back the the distance of the first week (i.e. 60 minutes) then I alternate build weeks and easy weeks to where I would go to 80 minutes, then 60 minutes, then 85 minutes then 60 minutes, then 90 minutes.  You can play with this and start smaller (i.e. 45 minutes) and build longer, etc.

So my advise is three key work outs a week. You can do recover runs on other days to get more volume in if you have time, but if you are cycling and swimming three times a week too three run work outs are the minimum I would do if you want to improve.  If you want to do a run focused program you could go to 4 days of running.  I really don't have any magic recipes to make people faster runners. Just put the time in and enjoy the journey. 




Thanks. I know I shouldn't compare myself to others but.... i do it anyway.

Thanks for the detailed workout ideas too!
2017-08-31 10:01 PM
in reply to: gsmacleod


471
1001001001002525
Subject: RE: Improving run
Originally posted by gsmacleod

If you want to get faster, you need to run more. Keep it all easy while you build volume and also use frequency to build volume.


Shane


This. Best advice you're going to get.


2017-09-04 7:35 PM
in reply to: Rollergirl

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Expert
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Colorado Springs, Colorado
Subject: RE: Improving run
When I started in triathlon I was much like you. Decent swim and good bike, then got passed by lots of people in the run. I asked the same question and the answer given to me was I needed to increase my running to about 30 miles a week, or about 50K. That seemed like an incredible amount at the time considering I was doing less than half that amount. However I forged ahead and worked on building up to the recommended amount. Like far too many people I first looked for an easier way. There wasn't anything that worked successfully for me. It took a couple years but I built up to the 30 mile mark and sure enough my running improved. I was no longer getting passed by lots of people and was consistently placing in my age group.

There is some advice that's been given in this forum. Run lots. Mostly easy, sometimes hard. That would equate to 30 miles a week with 25 being a very easy slow pace and 5 being harder runs.

Two runs a week is only going to maintain where you're at. The BarryP program is 6 days a week. Use it to gradually build your mileage. Gradual being the key. Your need to build slowly to allow your body to adapt.

Good luck.
2017-09-05 1:49 AM
in reply to: Donskiman

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612
500100
, Kronobergs lan
Subject: RE: Improving run
Originally posted by Donskiman

When I started in triathlon I was much like you. Decent swim and good bike, then got passed by lots of people in the run. I asked the same question and the answer given to me was I needed to increase my running to about 30 miles a week, or about 50K. That seemed like an incredible amount at the time considering I was doing less than half that amount. However I forged ahead and worked on building up to the recommended amount. Like far too many people I first looked for an easier way. There wasn't anything that worked successfully for me. It took a couple years but I built up to the 30 mile mark and sure enough my running improved. I was no longer getting passed by lots of people and was consistently placing in my age group.

There is some advice that's been given in this forum. Run lots. Mostly easy, sometimes hard. That would equate to 30 miles a week with 25 being a very easy slow pace and 5 being harder runs.

Two runs a week is only going to maintain where you're at. The BarryP program is 6 days a week. Use it to gradually build your mileage. Gradual being the key. Your need to build slowly to allow your body to adapt.

Good luck.


Thanks. On the advice I have received here I have started building some mileage. I am far from the 30 miles a week you are talking about (and won't get there soon) but I am now running 3 times a week and gradually increasing the distance each time.
2017-09-26 7:42 AM
in reply to: Rollergirl

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612
500100
, Kronobergs lan
Subject: RE: Improving run
So, I have been slowly building up run mileage and I have been running 19k the last 2 weeks (4 times a week 4 or 5 k each time) at a 6:30/6:45 minute per KM pace. Not trying to go faster.

Well, after a recovery week last week, I ran a 5k in 30 minutes yesterday (6min/K) without even trying!

It works! That keeps me motivated!

Thanks for the valuable advice.
2017-09-26 3:08 PM
in reply to: Rollergirl

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Western Australia
Subject: RE: Improving run
Originally posted by Rollergirl

So, I have been slowly building up run mileage and I have been running 19k the last 2 weeks (4 times a week 4 or 5 k each time) at a 6:30/6:45 minute per KM pace. Not trying to go faster.

Well, after a recovery week last week, I ran a 5k in 30 minutes yesterday (6min/K) without even trying!

It works! That keeps me motivated!

Thanks for the valuable advice.
its great that doing a 30 minute 5k is easier for you now. Keep up with the plan and it will get even better.
2017-09-27 12:44 AM
in reply to: StaceyK

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612
500100
, Kronobergs lan
Subject: RE: Improving run
Yeah, it's great! I have done it before but only during races or in training if pushing a bit.
This time, I set out to do 5k at my normal training pace (6:30-6:45 m/k) and was surprised at the end that it had only taken 30 minutes (and 5 seconds)
And that's after only 2 weeks (3 with the recovery week)!
I love instant results!


2017-09-27 4:19 AM
in reply to: Rollergirl

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Kingston Upon Thames, England
Subject: RE: Improving run
I find my running is improving over the last month. I stopped high intensity runs and started just building base and set a HR threshold in Zone 3. I ran 10km each time, the same route, I've noticed not only is my HR lower, my speed and time is getting lower. I hope to start moving into intensity sessions soon, but this base building I've tried is really paying off so far. I would like to now improve my running technique with help, but at least this is a good start.
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