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2007-03-01 2:14 PM
in reply to: #708010

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Cycling Guru
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Subject: RE: One day Weight Training?

jbillfsu - 2007-03-01 3:01 PM I think my biggest issue with the idea that weights do not benefit triathletes is the difference I have felt in both swimming and biking after a long period of weight training. 

Or is it because you've continued to swim and ride during that time??

As both amiine and johnnykay said, if you are doing weights because you like to do them, go for it.  There's no reason not to.  But what they are both subtley (or sometimes not so subtley) saying is that there has been no definitive proof that weight lifting does anything for you as a triathlete.  There are differnt "professional" and scientific studies that totally conflict each other on the topic, which means it is still inconclusive.

Not putting any opinion at all out there on this one (since some of you already know mine on it), just raising questions.



2007-03-01 2:19 PM
in reply to: #708010

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Subject: RE: One day Weight Training?

jbillfsu - 2007-03-01 2:01 PM I think my biggest issue with the idea that weights do not benefit triathletes is the difference I have felt in both swimming and biking after a long period of weight training. Its just a reality I can bike harder and faster because my legs are stronger, a large part of that is because of bike training but leg workouts have helped as well. The whole hypothetical of this one week you will be able to train harder without weight training seems a bit unrealistic. Because as we all know tri training is an summation of alot of different activities. If my legs are stronger and I have the exact same stamina as the guy next to me with less leg strength, Im taking him in the bike leg. I agree that base training is a major limiter for almost all beginner triathletes but that single fact does not make weight training bad.

I understand your skepticism.  But how can you even be sure of your "reality", i.e., that leg workouts have helped?  In fact, it takes very little "strength" to pedal a bicycle.  Your strength will only help you on the bike if it is developed specifically for biking. 

You may note some people talk about plyometrics as strength training for running.  This type of training turns out to be very specific and additive for a runner (it also turns out to be very high risk for the typical athlete).  Were you able to design some strength activities like that specific for cycling, you might have a point.  But doing squats or lunges, etc. won't do the trick.  That strength does not come into play even if you are climbing l"Alpe d'Huez.

The best way to get "stronger" on the bike is to bike (really, it's building endurance).  Bike often, bike hard, recover, repeat.

Lifting has other general health benefits which is why I am not "anti"-lifting.  It's not "bad".  It just won't make you a faster triathlete.

Edit:  I should say that there is no indication that it will make you a faster triathlete.  As Daremo correcly points out, studies are inconclusive.  But the weight of the evidence appears to show no benefit more often than not and leans towards specificity winning the day (we know this works).

 



Edited by JohnnyKay 2007-03-01 2:25 PM
2007-03-01 2:19 PM
in reply to: #706377

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Champion
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Subject: RE: One day Weight Training?
yeah weight lifting and triathlons comes down to IBM presents you make the call. I do think strength is important on the bike. I can take alot of strength atleast for me to get up hills.

Swimming and Running can also be very techique driven. The better techique you have the less muscle you need. The worse techiuque the more muscle you will use and therefor need. Maybe that is why the contradictions exsists.

2007-03-01 2:21 PM
in reply to: #708026

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Subject: RE: One day Weight Training?
Daremo - 2007-03-01 2:14 PM

 But what they are both subtley (or sometimes not so subtley) saying...

Do I sometimes lack subtlety.  Wink

2007-03-01 2:24 PM
in reply to: #706377

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Master
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Maine
Subject: RE: One day Weight Training?

This was a reply to a question about the benefits of strength training for triathletes that was on Slowtwitch today - seems appropriate here... 

Let me do the whole thread quickly for you

post 1. core, squats, back

post 2. there is no proof that weights help

post 3. actually, there is a lot of evidence that they don't at all

post 4. well, I don't care what science says, this is what I do and it works

post 5. you're an idiot

post 6. no name calling you a$$hole

post 7. check www.pubmed.org

post 8. well, for triathletes, it's different

post 9. no it's not, you goddamn idiot

repeat ad nauseum

2007-03-01 2:24 PM
in reply to: #708032

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Master
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Subject: RE: One day Weight Training?
JohnnyKay - 2007-03-01 12:19 PM

jbillfsu - 2007-03-01 2:01 PM I think my biggest issue with the idea that weights do not benefit triathletes is the difference I have felt in both swimming and biking after a long period of weight training. Its just a reality I can bike harder and faster because my legs are stronger, a large part of that is because of bike training but leg workouts have helped as well. The whole hypothetical of this one week you will be able to train harder without weight training seems a bit unrealistic. Because as we all know tri training is an summation of alot of different activities. If my legs are stronger and I have the exact same stamina as the guy next to me with less leg strength, Im taking him in the bike leg. I agree that base training is a major limiter for almost all beginner triathletes but that single fact does not make weight training bad.

I understand your skepticism. But how can you even be sure of your "reality", i.e., that leg workouts have helped? In fact, it takes very little "strength" to pedal a bicycle. Your strength will only help you on the bike if it is developed specifically for biking.

You may note some people talk about plyometrics as strength training for running. This type of training turns out to be very specific and additive for a runner (it also turns out to be very high risk for the typical athlete). Were you able to design some strength activities like that specific for cycling, you might have a point. But doing squats or lunges, etc. won't do the trick. That strength does not come into play even if you are climbing l"Alpe d'Huez.

The best way to get "stronger" on the bike is to bike (really, it's building endurance). Bike often, bike hard, recover, repeat.

Lifting has other general health benefits which is why I am not "anti"-lifting. It's not "bad". It just won't make you a faster triathlete.

I agree. However, the OP said nothing about becoming a faster triathlete. I don't even think it was implied.

If lifting causes me to be a slower triathlete, so be it, I have other priorities....What's holding you back? 



2007-03-01 2:30 PM
in reply to: #708010

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Coach
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Subject: RE: One day Weight Training?

jbillfsu - 2007-03-01 2:01 PM I think my biggest issue with the idea that weights do not benefit triathletes is the difference I have felt in both swimming and biking after a long period of weight training. Its just a reality I can bike harder and faster because my legs are stronger, a large part of that is because of bike training but leg workouts have helped as well. The whole hypothetical of this one week you will be able to train harder without weight training seems a bit unrealistic. Because as we all know tri training is an summation of alot of different activities. If my legs are stronger and I have the exact same stamina as the guy next to me with less leg strength, Im taking him in the bike leg. I agree that base training is a major limiter for almost all beginner triathletes but that single fact does not make weight training bad.

Ok think about it this way:

You want to complete the swim of a HIM (2112 yds) on 30 min and bike it on 2:30hrs (forget about running although it would reinforce my point )... Let’s say you avg 40 strokes per 50 yds @ 45 seconds hence you'll need around 80 strokes for 1:30 min or around 1600 strokes to reach your goal. For biking let’s assume you keep 90 rpms, hence you’ll pedal 13500 time with each leg or 27000 both. Think about it for a moment and without getting into the force required to swim/pedal vs. lifting, please explain to me how you can a ST sessions of lunges, squats, pushups, etc a week will help?

2007-03-01 2:32 PM
in reply to: #708041

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Subject: RE: One day Weight Training?
coachese - 2007-03-01 2:24 PM

I agree. However, the OP said nothing about becoming a faster triathlete. I don't even think it was implied.

It wasn't.  It was open-ended.  Which was why I couched my reply to his question like I did.  I'll repeat for the 3rd time: "Depends on your priorities and what you want to accomplish."  My answer was quite specific and not intending to open this can of worms yet again--others did that afterwards.

If lifting causes me to be a slower triathlete, so be it, I have other priorities....What's holding you back? 

The benefits of weight lifting are unimportant to me right now.  Perhaps in 10-15 years I will have a different opinion.  Nothing is holding me back, but thanks for the concern. 

 

2007-03-01 2:40 PM
in reply to: #708060

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Elite
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New City, New York
Subject: RE: One day Weight Training?

I'm not sure about all of this but the pool at my gym is closed for renovations. If I've reached my bike and run totals for the week should I:

a) lift or,

b) go to the deli and get a bacon, egg and cheese?

2007-03-01 2:42 PM
in reply to: #708070

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Subject: RE: One day Weight Training?
rollinbones - 2007-03-01 2:40 PM

I'm not sure about all of this but the pool at my gym is closed for renovations. If I've reached my bike and run totals for the week should I:

a) lift or,

b) go to the deli and get a bacon, egg and cheese?



why not bike and run mroe since you can not swim?
2007-03-01 2:46 PM
in reply to: #708070

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Subject: RE: One day Weight Training?
rollinbones - 2007-03-01 2:40 PM

I'm not sure about all of this but the pool at my gym is closed for renovations. If I've reached my bike and run totals for the week should I:

a) lift or,

b) go to the deli and get a bacon, egg and cheese?

Are you trying to mock our discussion?  The bacon, egg & cheese is filled with protein.  You should eat that after you lift.

 



2007-03-01 2:47 PM
in reply to: #706377

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Member
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Tallahassee
Subject: RE: One day Weight Training?
thanks everyone giving their opinion. I am no scientist but this whole line of reasoning that says just s/b/r kind of reminds me of back in the day football players didnt lift because they thought they would become muscle bound. Im not saying football and triathlon is even close to the same thing but its funny how science and sports theory change over time.
While my opinion is just like everyone else's, a personal theory, I believe those of you that dont weight train are the old school (pound out the miles and results will come). I think that line of reasoning will be blown away in the next 10 years or so when a new group of triathletes comes along and dominates using weight training as a major part of their plan.
I understand the idea that as you coach someone for a race it is probably in the best interest of that singluar race to just s/b/r but as an overall plan of success say 5-10 years I personally think weights are very important...
2007-03-01 2:53 PM
in reply to: #708080

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Elite
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New City, New York
Subject: RE: One day Weight Training?
JohnnyKay - 2007-03-01 3:46 PM
rollinbones - 2007-03-01 2:40 PM

I'm not sure about all of this but the pool at my gym is closed for renovations. If I've reached my bike and run totals for the week should I:

a) lift or,

b) go to the deli and get a bacon, egg and cheese?

Are you trying to mock our discussion? The bacon, egg & cheese is filled with protein. You should eat that after you lift.

 

 

Surely not. I was just wondering if I wasting my time lifting but now I'll feel better about it as I'm eating my BEC afterwards. Besides, you getting called "Old School" in that next post somehow made my day

2007-03-01 3:35 PM
in reply to: #708056

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Master
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Northern California
Subject: RE: One day Weight Training?
amiine - 2007-03-01 12:30 PM

jbillfsu - 2007-03-01 2:01 PM I think my biggest issue with the idea that weights do not benefit triathletes is the difference I have felt in both swimming and biking after a long period of weight training. Its just a reality I can bike harder and faster because my legs are stronger, a large part of that is because of bike training but leg workouts have helped as well. The whole hypothetical of this one week you will be able to train harder without weight training seems a bit unrealistic. Because as we all know tri training is an summation of alot of different activities. If my legs are stronger and I have the exact same stamina as the guy next to me with less leg strength, Im taking him in the bike leg. I agree that base training is a major limiter for almost all beginner triathletes but that single fact does not make weight training bad.

Ok think about it this way:

You want to complete the swim of a HIM (2112 yds) on 30 min and bike it on 2:30hrs (forget about running although it would reinforce my point )... Let’s say you avg 40 strokes per 50 yds @ 45 seconds hence you'll need around 80 strokes for 1:30 min or around 1600 strokes to reach your goal. For biking let’s assume you keep 90 rpms, hence you’ll pedal 13500 time with each leg or 27000 both. Think about it for a moment and without getting into the force required to swim/pedal vs. lifting, please explain to me how you can a ST sessions of lunges, squats, pushups, etc a week will help?

It might not help.

Neither does: playing with my niece, getting my Masters, washing my car, taking a shower, sleeping in on Sunday, watching Lost, planting a tree, swinging from a rope, painting a picture, reading fiction, discussing grammar with ChiRunner, or any other myriad of a million things that we all do on a daily basis that won't make us a faster triathlete. 

2007-03-01 3:37 PM
in reply to: #708070

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Coach
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Boston, MA
Subject: RE: One day Weight Training?
rollinbones - 2007-03-01 2:40 PM

I'm not sure about all of this but the pool at my gym is closed for renovations. If I've reached my bike and run totals for the week should I:

a) lift or,

b) go to the deli and get a bacon, egg and cheese?

when you can't s/b/r then yes lift! that for sure beats the deli anyday unless you invite me and your are buying!
2007-03-01 3:55 PM
in reply to: #708158

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Coach
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Subject: RE: One day Weight Training?
coachese - you keep repeating the word faster... I don't think I've used that word on any of my posts and if I did I certainly was referring to be a better triathlete (or at least the best one can be within our own time constraints and goals) . If your goal is to be a better father, husband, uncle, painter, Chirunner grammar teacher, Lost critic, tree harvester, etc and you train only as a way to keep a healthy lifestyle, good for you!

The OP asked: “should I keep 1 ST a week or focus on s/b/r..” and among the many replies what *I* suggested was that on the context of tri-training nothing will yield better ROI than s/b/r, in particular since one ST session a week won’t really provide any tri or ST benefits. I also mentioned that for those who believe on ST as an important part of their training because it makes them feel/look good, it is fun, etc the GO NUTS! Is that better or should I try to explain it again?  



2007-03-01 5:30 PM
in reply to: #708193

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Champion
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Menomonee Falls, WI
Subject: RE: One day Weight Training?
Now that this thread appears to be finally done, I need to go visit the "Post Training Beer" thread.
2007-03-01 5:42 PM
in reply to: #708193

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Master
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Northern California
Subject: RE: One day Weight Training?

amiine - 2007-03-01 1:55 PM coachese - you keep repeating the word faster... I don't think I've used that word on any of my posts and if I did I certainly was referring to be a better triathlete (or at least the best one can be within our own time constraints and goals) . If your goal is to be a better father, husband, uncle, painter, Chirunner grammar teacher, Lost critic, tree harvester, etc and you train only as a way to keep a healthy lifestyle, good for you!

 

Gotcha, and by better triathlete do you mean better looking? 'cause in a race better = faster. Semantics. 

 

Where is that beer thread....? 

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