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2008-10-29 6:07 PM

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Subject: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?

Was wondering if these two could coexist: strong runner and bad cyclist. I know everyone has their definition of "strong", so I'll just use a recreational strong, meaning 18ish 5k for runner strong, which would usually finish in top 10% of local road races.

I was just wondering how much overlap one can expect from run training overlapping to bike. I know there is some overlap from bike to run, but not a huge amount, as can be seen from Lance Armstrong's marathon performances. (Still good, but far, far from world-class.)

Anybody out there have REALLY disproportionately bad cycling placement times versus run times in a triathlon? (Reasonable bikes of course - not like a mtn bike in a road race.)

 



2008-10-29 6:46 PM
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Master
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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?
My problem with getting my cycling to the same level of my run is muscle mass, I believe. I'd say I'm built more like a runner, or a climber that lives in the flat lands.. Anyway, I don't build muscle mass easly, so getting a lot of power on the bike takes a bit of time for me. While my build benefits running already.

Given, it's evening out now, but cycling took a bit longer than my run to develop.
2008-10-29 7:08 PM
in reply to: #1774461

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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?
My friend who is training for her second IM really struggles with the bike. She is an accomplished runner - running over 25 marathons (she is 50) and other various running events. She switched to triathlon a few years ago and cannot seem to get speed/power on the bike. She's had a professional fit which increased her comfort but not her speed. She averages 14-16 mph on any ride. She has ridden long, done hill training, intervals you name it but she doesn't get any faster. At this point she just thinks it is a muscle thing and keep riding in hope of building better biking muscles - then she kicks it on the run In an oly this summer she averaged 17 mph on the bike and then 7/8 minute miles on the run.

I am the opposite - fast on the bike and like a turtle on the run. Maybe we should do a relay Now to find a really fast swimmer...
2008-10-29 7:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?

Count me as one of those people. When marginallly trained I can easily sustain 8-8:30miles for a run. Sprint PR is 8min/mi. Not bad for a female. My stats are very similar to the poster above me ^^. 13 marathons at various speeds, but slowwww on the bike.

However, I doubt I could keep 17mph on the bike in a tri. I'm obsurdly slow on the bike given my run times.

A coach told me when I was first making the transistion to tri's from running that some runners have a very hard time with the bike. Swimmers and cyclists see gains in the other events, runners have the least success. For me its mental as well, I can't get into the zone, I don't find the peace and enjoyment in cycling like I do running.



Edited by Comet 2008-10-29 7:26 PM
2008-10-29 7:31 PM
in reply to: #1774461

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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?

I fall into the category.  I rarely get passed on the run but I'm usually getting smoked on the bike.  For me, it is training volume.  I just love to run and it fits into my busy schedule much easier than cycling. 

But wait 'till next year.........

 

2008-10-29 7:44 PM
in reply to: #1774461

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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?
You're not a weak cyclist if you are riding 3 hours a week and running 6 hours.. ;p

Now if you're riding 8 hours a week and running 3 and still have trouble putting down good cyling times compared to your running. Then you can say you are.


2008-10-29 9:48 PM
in reply to: #1774461

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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?

Cool. Nice stories. I was curious, since as a marathoner (3:15ish PR), I was surprised to find that with minimal bike training (like, 1-2x/wk only) but LOTS of running (70+mpw), I would routinely blow by all my mtn bike buddies on the trails, and these guys only did biking, up to 5x/wk. Of course, I'm certain I trained much harder on the run since I was training for a PR, where as they are not mtn bike racers, so it's not quite a fair comparison, but for sure, on the swim, there is zero crossover for me, and I get smoked by grandmothers in the pool on a regular basis. That NEVER happens on my mtn bike, and in fact, usually lap people on the trails I ride despite my bad pedaling form previously (up-down like a runner instead of circular.

 Unfortunately, tri folks are a much more competitive group - I'd have no chance against the top 20% of my AG on the bike. 

2008-10-30 5:42 AM
in reply to: #1774829

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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?

In most cases I think that is a big "No" except when they are first starting out in the sport.  It takes a very short time for a strong athlete in ANY sport to get on the bike training and get relatively fast.

If someone has the aerobic and anaerobic ability to excel at running, then they have all the potential to do it on the bike.  Whether they are putting in the training to do that is a different story.

I train almost 1/3 less time on the bike than I do run.  In fact, I've gone stretches off the bike with no more than one or two rides each month and gotten on the bike and put up huge splits.  It certainly isn't because I'm riding a lot!

2008-10-30 6:28 AM
in reply to: #1775020

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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?
Daremo - 2008-10-30 6:42 AM

In most cases I think that is a big "No" except when they are first starting out in the sport.  It takes a very short time for a strong athlete in ANY sport to get on the bike training and get relatively fast.

Dead on.  I've been a strong runner for many years.  Just got into tri's two years ago.  During my first race (a sprint)  I averaged just 16 mph!!  A year later I average over 20 mph for a HIM.

When I started, biking was by far my weakest event.  Today, I'd consider my bike stronger than my swim.

2008-10-30 7:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?

Me!..I can place in my age group (which is old btw) in most 5k's and came into tris with running being my primary sport. The only advice given to me was get on the bike more. Alot of running does not make a good biker. Alot of biking doesn't hurt a good runner. I also feel that women runners in particular have a harder time getting up to "speed" in the biking segment, than males who have the same problem.



Edited by trirific10 2008-10-30 7:59 AM
2008-10-30 8:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?
agarose2000 - 2008-10-29 9:48 PM

Cool. Nice stories. I was curious, since as a marathoner (3:15ish PR), I was surprised to find that with minimal bike training (like, 1-2x/wk only) but LOTS of running (70+mpw), I would routinely blow by all my mtn bike buddies on the trails, and these guys only did biking, up to 5x/wk. Of course, I'm certain I trained much harder on the run since I was training for a PR, where as they are not mtn bike racers, so it's not quite a fair comparison, but for sure, on the swim, there is zero crossover for me, and I get smoked by grandmothers in the pool on a regular basis. That NEVER happens on my mtn bike, and in fact, usually lap people on the trails I ride despite my bad pedaling form previously (up-down like a runner instead of circular.

 Unfortunately, tri folks are a much more competitive group - I'd have no chance against the top 20% of my AG on the bike unless I actually get on my bike and ride lots!

Fixed

Cool



2008-10-30 8:33 AM
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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?
Completely the opposite here. I can hold an av speed over 20 on a flat bike course relatively easy, my training rides usually av around 18.4 in a pretty hilly area.

Runs suck for me. av 5K time is around 26 or 27 min. I am lucky to run 10 min miles on longer races.

Lot of muscle mass for me, hard to move all of that on the run. Seems to help on the swim and bike though.
2008-10-30 10:09 AM
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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?

While I don’t think I am a weak cyclist, it is my weakest link for sure. For some reason running comes natural to me and with little running and good cardiovascular fitness I can run at a nice pace. Biking on the other hand is been tougher for me to get to the same level for one main reason: I haven't ride lots  

On 2007 which I considerably increased my cycling from previous years was my best year racing. I was able to hold a decent power but I was also able to run faster of the bike cuz of that. This past year the focus was going to be all about the bike but I had bad luck with illness and injuries. So I am hoping to the same for 2009; I will work on the winter to increase my functional threshold power and as the weather improves, I will work on my endurance so I can hold a higher power over time.

I personally don't believe there is much transfer from one sport to another in terms of specific fitness. But if you improve just a little on your weakest sport your strong sport will seem stronger because you have now more fitness to push you power at a greater level.

For those who think you need muscle to become a better/strong rider, that's not accurate. As mentioned above, you have to focus on power and not strength (muscle). Chrissie Wellington is a slim gal who can't out bike many many musclely guys. It is all about power baby, and Bear is been always correct, it is about riding lots

 

2008-10-30 10:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?
Completely the opposite here. I can hold an av speed over 20 on a flat bike course relatively easy, my training rides usually av around 18.4 in a pretty hilly area.

Runs suck for me. av 5K time is around 26 or 27 min. I am lucky to run 10 min miles on longer races.

Lot of muscle mass for me, hard to move all of that on the run. Seems to help on the swim and bike though.


X2. I am a great biker and crappy runner. I guess I am glad, because you gain the most time by being good in the bike. I haven't given up hope on getting my run to a good place, tho. I am always tri-ing to improve.

Also, I have huge quads. I cannot wear women's jeans because of them. I have to buy men's jeans!

Edited by keyone 2008-10-30 10:32 AM
2008-10-30 10:37 AM
in reply to: #1774461

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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?
I'm not argueing that you can't push a lot of power with pretty lean muscle (I'm doing so now). But if you think Michael Rasmussen can out ride Cancerella on a flat stage you got another thing coming. I'd be willing to be this is due to the fact that Cancerella has big ol quads and Ras has chicken legs. He just can't push out the same power as Cancerella due to not having enough muscle to do so.

Not saying having lean/skinny legs is going to hold me back on becoming a good cyclists, but I do think it's part of the reason cycling came 'slower' than running for me.

2008-10-30 10:43 AM
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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?

Parr8hed - 2008-10-30 8:33 AM Completely the opposite here. I can hold an av speed over 20 on a flat bike course relatively easy, my training rides usually av around 18.4 in a pretty hilly area. Runs suck for me. av 5K time is around 26 or 27 min. I am lucky to run 10 min miles on longer races. Lot of muscle mass for me, hard to move all of that on the run. Seems to help on the swim and bike though.

 

X3.  Very comfortable on the bike, feel like an old man with a walker on the run. I'm workin' on it, though

 



2008-10-30 11:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?

smilford - 2008-10-30 10:37 AM I'm not argueing that you can't push a lot of power with pretty lean muscle (I'm doing so now). But if you think Michael Rasmussen can out ride Cancerella on a flat stage you got another thing coming. I'd be willing to be this is due to the fact that Cancerella has big ol quads and Ras has chicken legs. He just can't push out the same power as Cancerella due to not having enough muscle to do so. Not saying having lean/skinny legs is going to hold me back on becoming a good cyclists, but I do think it's part of the reason cycling came 'slower' than running for me.

Yes and no. While FC can push more power than Ras and will have a bit of advantage on a flat TT what matters is power:weight ratio and the specific training adaptations. Who do you think produces more power going up to Alp D'huez? FC for sure but Ras has a better power to weight ratio hence he can out ride anyone going up. Someone like LA had a great power: weight ratio and trained specifically to be able to sustain max power over a TT. (Also for TTs you have to consider aerodynamics)

Anyway probably next week I will start a thread about focusing to increase your power threshold over the winter. You can do this by 2-3x sessions a week 45-60 min each (on the trainer or outside). I’ll post a periodirized plan including different cycles (or phases), tests, sessions and anyone with a power meter, HR or even training by RPE will be welcome to play :)



Edited by amiine 2008-10-30 11:28 AM
2008-10-30 11:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?
I tend to agree with Jorge's first post. I don't know that I'm a "strong" runner by the terms the OP set out. Definitely not an 18 min. 5K runner; I'm 20-flat for 5K and 6-flat for a mile on the track (I'm in my late 40s, for whatever that's worth), but I pretty consistently finish in the top 5-8% of the field in road races at every distance and have been passed by a total of exactly one person during the runs in my last three tris under HIM distance. But I've been consistent at logging miles on the bike month after month for almost two years and I'm still only marginally over 20 mph on a flat Oly course. Definitely a disparity, even after a ton of biking the last year training for my first HIM. Yet I went out last March with an injury and after a bit of an enforced reduction in running miles and still put up a marathon PR. Running just seems to come easier.

And, for that matter, due to time constraints, I virtually never swim more than once a week (average maybe 2200 yds a week), but my swimming is no worse than my biking (generally a bit better).

For those in this thread who've talked about fairly rapid cycling improvements: Did you upgrade your bike along with putting in the miles (or was it all about upgrading the "engine")?
2008-10-30 11:51 AM
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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?

I'm not as fast as you've mentioned, but I'm routinely right at 50% or below of my AG (35-39 women) on the bike and top 1-3 people on the run.  NatNegativeSplit is the same way only faster than me on the run.  We started as runners, though, so I've always attributed it to that.  You could also attribute it to other people's lack of run fitness.

Edited to add, the high run placements I mentioned above are in small local races.  And, I just read through all of the other comments and I do agree with what other posters have said.  My bike fitness (or lack thereof) is definitely a function of me not having as much of a bike base as I do on run/swim. 



Edited by Mrs. brown_dog_us 2008-10-30 11:58 AM
2008-10-30 12:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?
amiine - 2008-10-30 11:27 AM

Yes and no. While FC can push more power than Ras and will have a bit of advantage on a flat TT what matters is power:weight ratio and the specific training adaptations. Who do you think produces more power going up to Alp D'huez? FC for sure but Ras has a better power to weight ratio hence he can out ride anyone going up. Someone like LA had a great power: weight ratio and trained specifically to be able to sustain max power over a TT. (Also for TTs you have to consider aerodynamics)

Anyway probably next week I will start a thread about focusing to increase your power threshold over the winter. You can do this by 2-3x sessions a week 45-60 min each (on the trainer or outside). I’ll post a periodirized plan including different cycles (or phases), tests, sessions and anyone with a power meter, HR or even training by RPE will be welcome to play



I agree with all that. I've always said power to weight ratio is what is important.

But my point was that for someone, lets use me as a example, who is thin and naturally lean. Will probably get fast in running before they do in cycling. I live in the flats, given on the few climbs around I could ride with guys who were a level or 2 above me on the flats, so in races my bike splits were usually a bit behind my run. Then there is the run.. I got down into the 17s pretty quickly, while cycling it took me awhile to see the same growth. Given I'd call my running/cycling fairly close now, hard work certainly works in the long run. It's just going to take longer than if you're someone like Bryancd for example who has big ol quads.

So while it's not a limiting factor in the long run. I think when someone is starting out, how their body develops can certainly make them think that they are just a bad cyclists.
2008-10-30 6:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?
Does it count if you are terrible at both running and bicycling?

Edited by amyro1234 2008-10-30 6:59 PM


2008-10-30 9:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?

My strengths lie in the Swim/Run.  I kill on the swim, I die on the bike, I take my placings back on the run!  I run a 1:25 HM, and the last 5k I ran last year was just under 18.

I've been putting in a TON more bike hours in, then last season, and I'm beginning to see some real improvement.  This is IN SPITE of having skinny legs and an overall swimmers body!  To compare body types (in many cases) is a moot point.  I'd say if I did a race RIGHT NOW I would average between 20-21 mph., considering my training speeds!

It's definitely been tough getting my a$$ kicked on the bike at every tri, but I think this year will be my breakthrough year on the bike!  

2008-10-31 12:29 AM
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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?
I probably fall into the strong runner average to bad cyclist. Raced 8K two weeks ago in 27:56(age 43). Fastest tri bike split 22.8mph. Fall off the back of the main pack during bike road races. Middle of the pack in lowest division of cyclocross. I think the roadies take great pleasure in making me hurt when I bike with them which isn't very often but it does help my riding.

Biking seems to help with my running but the running doesn't seem to help with the biking. The pace and intensity level seems to vary so much during a bike race and I haven't really adjusted to it yet.

Older brother ran a sub 18 5K running, one 5 mile session of fartlek once week with 140 miles of biking per week. I think he ran a couple years of track(hurdles) in High School but no distance running so I'm assuming the biking was helping his running.
2008-10-31 8:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?
amiine - 2008-10-30 12:27 PM Anyway probably next week I will start a thread about focusing to increase your power threshold over the winter. You can do this by 2-3x sessions a week 45-60 min each (on the trainer or outside). I’ll post a periodirized plan including different cycles (or phases), tests, sessions and anyone with a power meter, HR or even training by RPE will be welcome to play

I'll be really interested when you post this.  Need all the help I can get on the bike (not riding enough is one issue).  Like others, I started Tri's with no background in any discipline, but being light and lean, the run has come easier so far - even though it wasn't fun at the beginning - but the bike has me below MOP.  Want to improve that for next year.

2008-10-31 10:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Any strong runners out there who are bad cyclists?

Pollywog - 2008-10-31 1:29 AM I probably fall into the strong runner average to bad cyclist. Raced 8K two weeks ago in 27:56(age 43). Fastest tri bike split 22.8mph.

Which probably put you in the top 10% for bike splits in the race ......... don't see why you say it isn't crossing over.

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