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2008-01-24 6:11 PM

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Subject: Lord of the Base
I was just going to post this in my training logs but though it might be of interest to the community at large as there have been a number of threads on base building and it is that time of year.

I have been in a base building mode for the past month or so. Following Kona, I took a brief off season on unstructured training and usually ran or biked without gear and at whatever pace I felt like. As the holidays rolled around, I brought the Polar S625X back out and tried to get back into my base training. The initial results were not very encouraging. Keeping below my 148 max base HR I could barely manage an 8:00min/mile pace. I knew I had been running too hard prior and had lost a lot of that low end fitness. In fact, I wasn't sure what kind of fitness I even still had. I did see my weight increase to a steady 163-164.

So I really applied myself to a disciplined January of getting in a lot of running mileage in my aerobic 138-148 HR zone religiously and used the bike as a long duration aerobic augment. My next important race is the Boston Marathon, so the bike needs to take a bit of a backseat. Things sort of progressed along for the first 2-3 weeks, my pace began to fall into the mid to high 7's. Then last week, about the time I started logging my training info here, I noticed my weight turned around and fell back to 159 almost overnight. I saw some 7:30 and below run efforts and my HR began to fall lower.

Yesterday I ran a route with only 300 feet of climbing, 10 miles, 7:13 pace, with a 146 HR. Best to date...until today when I ran 8.7 with twice the climbing at 6:57 at the same HR. I was shocked. It was a if a switch within me had been thrown, the difference in how I felt was that dramatic. My point in all of this is that base training, as is pointed out so many times, works, it just doesn't work on your schedule. It's frustrating to train week after week and see no noticeable improvement but give your body a chance. Walk those hills if you have too, I pretty much did from time to time. Run hard on the downhills and keep in the zone, don't let yourself fall off too far, stay disciplined, the results will be there.


2008-01-24 8:38 PM
in reply to: #1174938

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base

Bryan, that's a great post about base building and with that I hope you don't mind me posting this in your thread.  This was written by Mark Allen about base building and training in an aerobic fat burning zone and how it will benefit you in the long run. 

"There are several reasons why you want to develop your body's ability to burn stored fat. First, as you probably know, your reserves of fat are huge compared to the amount of stored carbohydrate in your body. We can have as much as 50,000 calories worth of fat stored up, enough to propel someone from Los Angeles to San Francisco. However, a trained athlete only has around 2500 calories worth of carbohydrates stored up as glycogen, which is barely enough to run 25 miles. As an endurance athlete, burning as much fat as possible during competition will help spare precious glycogen. This allows the athlete to sustain a significantly higher pace than someone who does not have a highly developed aerobic (fat) burning system. There is a second reason why becoming efficient at fat burning is important. The improvements in performance you can gain from increasing your ability to utilize fat for muscle contractions are huge compared to what you can expect from increasing carbohydrate-burning efficiency. Another way to think of it is that fat burning determines the size of your internal athletic engine. The more efficient you are at tapping into and utilizing fat reserves, the bigger your engine. Increasing your ability to burn carbohydrates only fine-tunes the engine. Most athletes focus their energies on fine tuning, usually because it's the speed work (anaerobic) sessions that make you feel like you've really worked hard. Aerobic fat burning sessions, on the other hand, often leave you feeling fresher at the end of the workout than at the beginning. Not a bad deal...you feel fresher and get faster at the same time!

How do you get faster if you are training at a heart rate below your maximum? Let me explain. Let's say that to contract one muscle cell, one fat molecule has to be broken down. And let's further say it takes one fat burning enzyme one second to break down that one fat molecule. In January, suppose you only have one of these fat-burning enzymes ready for action in your body. This means that every second you will be able to contract one muscle cell. Now let's assume that over the next several months you train every workout in the aerobic heart rate ranges, which will stimulate the production of more fat-burning enzymes. By March, you find that you now have a thousand fat burning enzymes available for fat metabolism. This means that every second you can now convert a thousand fat molecules into energy that in turn contract a thousand muscle cells every second. This translates into a faster athlete at the same heart rate. You have just become an enzymatic wonder! In the real world what this means is that in the beginning of the season at the high end of your aerobic heart rate range, the pace that you workout at may seem very, very slow. You might even have to walk up hills to keep your heart rate down. However, as your aerobic fitness improves, so will your pace. And so will your results! Prior to using a heart rate monitor, I was driven by the 'No Pain, No Gain' motto. I tried to go anaerobic at some point in almost every workout I did. When I first tried out a heart rate monitor, I was only able to run an 8:15 mile at my maximum aerobic heart rate of 155 beats per minute, which was almost three minutes a mile slower than I tried to average on my shorter anaerobic runs! How would it feel to you to slow down 3 minutes per mile? Probably pretty slow! I was aerobically very inefficient. But over time, my aerobic fitness improved. A year later I had increased the size of my internal engine and was running back down around 5:30 pace at the same 155 beats per minute heart rate!"

2008-01-24 9:50 PM
in reply to: #1174938

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base

do you believe you got faster because you just run at 'x' HR or because you just ran more?

while I think it is important to train at a workload that allows you to to do more over time and consistent week in week out I don't believe in the whole 'base' training approach in which you limit your training intensity to one zone. i.e. I've been on a running cycle running and my easy pace (for those with HR is around zone 1) has dropped from 7 min/mile to 6:48 min/mile but I've been adding some intensity in the form of short threshold pace runs (zone 4), Tempo runs (zone 3) and I don't walk on hills . I know I've improved not necessarly because I've run at x or y pace; Ive improved because I've been running more than normal = more strain on my body producing more fitness

2008-01-25 2:58 AM
in reply to: #1174938

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base
I'm really interested in this thread because I have found recently that my running seems so be slower than its ever been. I am training for my first marathon in May, and have 10k's, half marys etc lined up between now and then

I ran a half mary in oct in 1:59 so around a 9 min mile pace, and when I did that I was a quite under-trained because I had misjudged training distances and couldn't have ran more than 8 mile max before the event

So now I am running around a 10 min mile on most runs, my coach is asking me to keep my HR under 160 on my long runs (11 miles at the moment once per week) so I expect to be a bit slower than usual but this seems really low to me.

I'd like to know, if I am doing a long, low zone distance run once per week, with hill and tempo work mixed in over a couple of other times a week. Is it expected that my speed will increase as my body gets more efficient at working in a low zone over time.

Basically I guess I'd like to know how do I run a marathon at 8:30 min mile pace when I'm running 10 min mile pace at 160bpm HR??
2008-01-25 7:26 AM
in reply to: #1175347

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base

jessicadawn - 2008-01-25 2:58 AM I'm really interested in this thread because I have found recently that my running seems so be slower than its ever been. I am training for my first marathon in May, and have 10k's, half marys etc lined up between now and then I ran a half mary in oct in 1:59 so around a 9 min mile pace, and when I did that I was a quite under-trained because I had misjudged training distances and couldn't have ran more than 8 mile max before the event So now I am running around a 10 min mile on most runs, my coach is asking me to keep my HR under 160 on my long runs (11 miles at the moment once per week) so I expect to be a bit slower than usual but this seems really low to me. I'd like to know, if I am doing a long, low zone distance run once per week, with hill and tempo work mixed in over a couple of other times a week. Is it expected that my speed will increase as my body gets more efficient at working in a low zone over time. Basically I guess I'd like to know how do I run a marathon at 8:30 min mile pace when I'm running 10 min mile pace at 160bpm HR??
Short answer you need to run more. It takes time for your body to adapt and grow fitter. The more you stress you place on your body and allow it to recover the more you can expect gains. For the regular AGer this = to years of training as we can't exclusively train. If you are running avg 16 mpw 2-3x per week it will take you longer of course...

Edit - I forgot to post: you need to do run at marathon pace as well. Many plans advice to do long runs at a lower pace/HR is because it is a quality run (places more strain in the body) hence you want to stress the body but not that much to the point that you’ll need several days to recover from ONE session. In theory you have your long runs plus another 3-5 runs on the same week (one of those another quality sessions) hence the total workload of all those runs should stress your body in different ways. If you do all your runs at ‘x’ HR/pace you can expect to run somehow faster during your race (with proper training) because by then you should be fitter and rested. But if you never trained at the pace you expect to race it will be more challenging and even hard to achieve.



Edited by amiine 2008-01-25 7:48 AM
2008-01-25 7:26 AM
in reply to: #1175180

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base
amiine - 2008-01-24 9:50 PM

do you believe you got faster because you just run at 'x' HR or because you just ran more?

while I think it is important to train at a workload that allows you to to do more over time and consistent week in week out I don't believe in the whole 'base' training approach in which you limit your training intensity to one zone. i.e. I've been on a running cycle running and my easy pace (for those with HR is around zone 1) has dropped from 7 min/mile to 6:48 min/mile but I've been adding some intensity in the form of short threshold pace runs (zone 4), Tempo runs (zone 3) and I don't walk on hills . I know I've improved not necessarly because I've run at x or y pace; Ive improved because I've been running more than normal = more strain on my body producing more fitness



I think it's both. I think for a someone just beginning to train that base work offers an opportunity to acces the volume without the risks that more intensity might bring. Because there are so many factors which effect perfromance and results, sometimes a simple early season plan like base work can allow someone with limited time and fitness to maximize their mileage and return on that mileage.
After all, if The Grip agree's, who are we to argue?


2008-01-25 7:35 AM
in reply to: #1175431

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base
amiine - 2008-01-25 7:26 AM

jessicadawn - 2008-01-25 2:58 AM I'm really interested in this thread because I have found recently that my running seems so be slower than its ever been. I am training for my first marathon in May, and have 10k's, half marys etc lined up between now and then I ran a half mary in oct in 1:59 so around a 9 min mile pace, and when I did that I was a quite under-trained because I had misjudged training distances and couldn't have ran more than 8 mile max before the event So now I am running around a 10 min mile on most runs, my coach is asking me to keep my HR under 160 on my long runs (11 miles at the moment once per week) so I expect to be a bit slower than usual but this seems really low to me. I'd like to know, if I am doing a long, low zone distance run once per week, with hill and tempo work mixed in over a couple of other times a week. Is it expected that my speed will increase as my body gets more efficient at working in a low zone over time. Basically I guess I'd like to know how do I run a marathon at 8:30 min mile pace when I'm running 10 min mile pace at 160bpm HR??
Short answer you need to run more. It takes time for your body to adapt and grow fitter. The more you stress you place on your body and allow it to recover the more you can expect gains. For the regular AGer this = to years of training as we can't exclusively train. If you are running avg 16 mpw 2-3x per week it will take you longer of course...


You also will go into your Marathon properly tapered and your coach will likely adjust your HR zone for the race higher than your base aerobic training zone. In my case, my base training zone is 138-148 but I ran my open marathon averaging 160 with a 162 cap. Your coach will help you define your race zone based on your achieved level of fitness and anticipated duration of the event.
2008-01-25 9:07 AM
in reply to: #1175450

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base

I really peaked with my running in the early part of last year and don't think I got any of "it" back after Boston until much later in the year.  It took me probably 6 months to get back down to a reasonable long run pace compared to where I was in March of last year.

But since ramping it up again in December I'm definitely back!!  Hitting my long runs in the low - mid 7's and today's tempo was a 6:32 average.

I'm following a very specific and structured marathon plan though, so it is not so much about base work for me as it is just shear volume and workout types.  Hell, I'm already over 200 miles this month and still have a week to go ........

2008-01-25 9:16 AM
in reply to: #1175433

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base

bryancd - 2008-01-25 7:26 AM

I think for a someone just beginning to train that base work offers an opportunity to acces the volume without the risks that more intensity might bring. Because there are so many factors which effect perfromance and results, sometimes a simple early season plan like base work can allow someone with limited time and fitness to maximize their mileage and return on that mileage. After all, if The Grip agree's, who are we to argue?

'Base' does not necessarily equal low intensity/HR.  But it is certainly a good way rebuild volume after a layoff as it poses less risks.  And certainly for somebody with limited fitness.  But if you are limited by time, rather than fitness, then well-planned intensity may very well be a good addition to your base work.

2008-01-25 9:29 AM
in reply to: #1175450

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base
bryancd - 2008-01-25 1:35 PM

amiine - 2008-01-25 7:26 AM

jessicadawn - 2008-01-25 2:58 AM I'm really interested in this thread because I have found recently that my running seems so be slower than its ever been. I am training for my first marathon in May, and have 10k's, half marys etc lined up between now and then I ran a half mary in oct in 1:59 so around a 9 min mile pace, and when I did that I was a quite under-trained because I had misjudged training distances and couldn't have ran more than 8 mile max before the event So now I am running around a 10 min mile on most runs, my coach is asking me to keep my HR under 160 on my long runs (11 miles at the moment once per week) so I expect to be a bit slower than usual but this seems really low to me. I'd like to know, if I am doing a long, low zone distance run once per week, with hill and tempo work mixed in over a couple of other times a week. Is it expected that my speed will increase as my body gets more efficient at working in a low zone over time. Basically I guess I'd like to know how do I run a marathon at 8:30 min mile pace when I'm running 10 min mile pace at 160bpm HR??
Short answer you need to run more. It takes time for your body to adapt and grow fitter. The more you stress you place on your body and allow it to recover the more you can expect gains. For the regular AGer this = to years of training as we can't exclusively train. If you are running avg 16 mpw 2-3x per week it will take you longer of course...


You also will go into your Marathon properly tapered and your coach will likely adjust your HR zone for the race higher than your base aerobic training zone. In my case, my base training zone is 138-148 but I ran my open marathon averaging 160 with a 162 cap. Your coach will help you define your race zone based on your achieved level of fitness and anticipated duration of the event.



Thank you and apologies if this is a thread hijack but hopefully it is along the lines of what you started off Bryan.

So, can I check my understanding that by 'run more' do you mean I need to do more run sessions per week and over time I'll improve. Or, do you mean that as i get more experience, i.e running consistently over many months and years I'll start to find my speed lowers. Or maybe its a combination of both???

(BTW I'm not entirely new to running, I returned after an knee operation in Oct 06 and have been building up very slowly but I've never examined my pace etc before)





2008-01-25 9:37 AM
in reply to: #1174938

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base

Great advice and often easier said then done.

Last week I ran w/ a friend who is just faster than me. He's willing to hold back for the most part. When we came to the big climb (1/2 mile STEEP incline) I told him I was going to walk it. He kept going. That was fine.  Spiking my HR for that long was not the objective. 

Keep your eye on the prize. 

 

bryancd - 2008-01-24 7:11 PM  Walk those hills if you have too

stay disciplined, the results will be there.



2008-01-25 9:41 AM
in reply to: #1175696

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base

jessicadawn - 2008-01-25 10:29 AM So, can I check my understanding that by 'run more' do you mean I need to do more run sessions per week and over time I'll improve. Or, do you mean that as i get more experience, i.e running consistently over many months and years I'll start to find my speed lowers. Or maybe its a combination of both??? 

Both .......

The "accepted" standard is 3 quality runs a week to maintain, 4+ to improve.  And yes, the more consistent you are, the better over the long haul.

Fake legal disclaimer: "Results not typical for all participants.  Your results may vary."

2008-01-25 9:41 AM
in reply to: #1175696

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base


Thank you and apologies if this is a thread hijack but hopefully it is along the lines of what you started off Bryan.

So, can I check my understanding that by 'run more' do you mean I need to do more run sessions per week and over time I'll improve. Or, do you mean that as i get more experience, i.e running consistently over many months and years I'll start to find my speed lowers. Or maybe its a combination of both???

(BTW I'm not entirely new to running, I returned after an knee operation in Oct 06 and have been building up very slowly but I've never examined my pace etc before)



It's both, or both are the same thing. Either way consistency is everything, atleast that's what I say.

If you slowly raise your weekly mileage over a long period of time. Your body will get comfortable with your current pace and you will be running a faster pace at the same effort. this is without really tossing any speed work(tempo/track). Like already stated your constantly putting more stress on your body week to week, month to month from steadly raising your mileage. Doing this will make you faster. Then when you can't really add more mileage(schedule or your body will kick in) is a good time to start doing some speed work to get more out of your mileage.

2008-01-25 10:04 AM
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2008-01-25 10:08 AM
in reply to: #1175651

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base
JohnnyKay - 2008-01-25 9:16 AM

'Base' does not necessarily equal low intensity/HR.  But it is certainly a good way rebuild volume after a layoff as it poses less risks.  And certainly for somebody with limited fitness.  But if you are limited by time, rather than fitness, then well-planned intensity may very well be a good addition to your base work.

Right on! Btw, I've been trying to find a definition for this 'base' work everyone talks about without much luck. I know Friel, Allen, Gordo and others preach about it but they can't properly define it. Are they talking about fitness? If so how do you quantify this base? How much is too much? And for how long we need to do this base? When is ok to train other than this base? is the base period the same for a sprint or a IM athlete?

I’ll post a follow up to this but I want to see what others think and because I need to go running ;)



Edited by amiine 2008-01-25 10:10 AM
2008-01-25 10:16 AM
in reply to: #1174938

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base

From a marathoning standpoint (going by Pfitzinger-Douglas) your "base" can be thought of as the Phase I training where you are doing higher volumes at long run paces.  There will still be a day of tempo or stride work, but the focus of the phase is on big volume runs.  I've had 13 - 15 milers in the middle of the week with another long run on the weekend from 17 - 20.  Add in another 8 - 11 mile day for the tempo/stride stuff and you are already well above 40 miles in just 3 workouts.

As the training phases move on, those mid-week runs come down to more reasonable level and the focus becomes more on the higher intensity stuff but still have a decent long run on the weekend.

So for me, the "base" is really just the higher volume that you get in the early phases of training.  Having long runs basically forces you to run a slightly lower pace of course.



2008-01-25 10:34 AM
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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base
Yeah, that's a good question and probably one with no specific answer. Sometimes generic langauge will be vague and open to interpretation of the individual. My coach used the term base to identify a training effort which would mirror my Ironman race intensity. That became the language we could communicate in. Base aerobic training meant training at IM race intensity for me entirely based on heart rate.
2008-01-25 10:51 AM
in reply to: #1174938

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base

What about defining "base" as the "base" fitness required to jump into a race specific training period.

What I mean is to jump into week 1 of the Beginner IM plan here on BT you MUST have the "Base" to (at least with relative ease) complete 40 minute swim, 1.5 hour run, and 1.5 hour bike.

That has been my objective over the winter, to maintain that ability. Have not been real interested in gains. With that said, I did do some run intensity stuff to PR a 5 miler on New Years Day.

Thats my relatively inexperienced view.

2008-01-25 10:58 AM
in reply to: #1175786

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base

amiine - 2008-01-25 12:08 PM

Right on! Btw, I've been trying to find a definition for this 'base' work everyone talks about without much luck. I know Friel, Allen, Gordo and others preach about it but they can't properly define it. Are they talking about fitness? If so how do you quantify this base? How much is too much? And for how long we need to do this base? When is ok to train other than this base? is the base period the same for a sprint or a IM athlete?

I’ll post a follow up to this but I want to see what others think and because I need to go running

I think you can find the definition in the same spot as "muscular endurance" Wink

Shane

2008-01-25 11:08 AM
in reply to: #1174938

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base

I think that too often people probably correlate their "base" with what really would be their "maintenance."

Articles/books always talk about improving and building the "base" over the winter, but really what most people are trying to do is just maintain their level of fitness from the previous season in my opinion.  And they think that occassional low intensity stuff will do that.

I like to think of the "base" as what I mentioned in my last post - the "base" is that higher volume focused work you do early in a training cycle.  Yes, most of it is lower intensity, but there is also a LOT of it, so your body is really pushed to the extreme from that perspective and by nature it cannot be in the higher intensity range and be sustained without the risk of injury.

What is that volume level for someone??  Totally varies based on their fitness and abilities, it will be different for everyone.  For me it means 50+ mile weeks for running and 300+ for riding (which I cannot do ...... it is either one or the other based on time constraints).  For others it would be different.

That's my take on what "base" means and how I approach it.  Not right, not wrong, just my way to utilize the word.

2008-01-25 11:54 AM
in reply to: #1174938

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base
Base Training.

I think it applies more to a pro athlete or someone who races alot. As in someone who races so much that they aren't able to get the mileage/time/intensity they would like to contantly build fitness and still be rested for races. So after their season or peak fitness passes they will go into base training. Which I think, commonly starts out as getting their mileage/time/intesity back up to where they start seeing improvements. This training period is going to be their 'base' fitness for the next racing season.

I don't think base has to do with just running low HR runs with no speed. I think that's part of it but the harder workouts that come after that mileage build up would also be part of your base for your upcoming race season.

When you do just 1 or 2 races a year.. I would think pretty much all your training is base training. Except for the last 2 weeks where you may be tapering and following recovery week(s).

This make sense to anyone else but me? that's the real question. lol

Edited by smilford 2008-01-25 11:56 AM


2008-01-25 12:22 PM
in reply to: #1175874

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base
idahodan - 2008-01-25 10:51 AM

What about defining "base" as the "base" fitness required to jump into a race specific training period.

I think that's a pretty reasonable definition, but still leaves things open to a wide variety of training. 

My current "base" work includes quite a bit of intensity on the bike.  The idea is to prepare myself to be a stronger cyclist once I start training specifically for my races.  This may mean transitioning to lower intensity and more volume if I'm preparing to race long for example. 

If I were to try to maintain a "base" simply by piling on volume, I would be forced to ride much more than is practical for me at this time of year.

"Base" training for a triathlete could also include a focused sport block.  Within that block, you may be targeting a PB which requires various levels of intensity.  But the goal for the block is to raise your "base" fitness to a higher level so that when you begin your more balanced tri-specific training, you're starting from a higher level in that sport.

Again, one type of base training may be low intensity/HR.  But there are many other ways to prepare a base to build from into your racing season.

2008-01-25 12:29 PM
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2008-01-25 12:38 PM
in reply to: #1176068

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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base

(Maybe because people who have a clue about what they are talking about are having the discussion).

2008-01-25 12:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Lord of the Base
PennState - 2008-01-25 12:29 PM

agree, agree, agree

This is rather impressive how this topic has gone so well without bickering. Usually (myself included) discussions as nebuolous as aerobic and base training lead to a fracus



Oh, yeah? We can change that real fast! Watch this!

So, today I went and did an MAF test to see what my base fitness was.......
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