Nailing the IRONMAN Marathon..
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Very interesting article on the IM run. Some parts I agree with, like the reason IM runs go south is ultimately due to poor run fitness as opposed to over pacing the bike. Other parts I don't agree with, like some of the claimed benefits of Transition runs and not doing as much speed work, but a good read none the less and worthy of discussion. http://triathlon.competitor.com/2009/12/training/how-to-nail-the-ir... |
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Melon Presser ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I misread the Subject and got all excited! I thought perhaps it was an offer from you? ![]() It seems mainly to address higher-end Ironman racers, but did a pretty good job of addressing a wider Ironman crowd in the specific tips (key cycling distances and scheduling, same for the run). I would imagine those are decent tips even for first-time Ironman contenders. I don't know about going up to 26.2 for the long run, but ... here's my random and completely unsubstantiated thoughts (since I've never done an Ironman, I mean, well, not myself, I mean, not, you know, the race. Ahem.) Marathon training (low-mileage, emphasis on long runs) was a significant part of base training for my first half-iron (and did a marathon in the early part of the half-iron training). It just worked out that way; can't say I recommend it or don't. But I do feel that kind of run training allowed me to do an evenly-paced half-iron run split that was exactly the race pace I'd trained for. This was after a hilly, windy cycle I did on an upright bike with cruiser bars and three gears. But my stupidity, lack of decent bike, or secretly trying to brag really are not the point. The run training is. |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() It's just his opinion. I'm a bit tired of reading articles by Matt Fitzgerald in every tri and running magazine and on line I see. I don't agree don't run a lot but run long. I did that to train for my first IM and it didn't work so great. I think running more often to build durability is key for me. If it was as easy as following 5 steps to run a good IM run as he implies, there wouldn't be so many opinions and articles on how to do it. |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Bryan, What do you think about his idea of the "metric" IM 4 or 5 weeks out? Also curious what your thoughts are on this strategy for a HIM? My "A" race in 2010 is a HIM in September and it will be my first HIM so I'm trying to take in as much info as I can on training strategies from different sources. Thanks for any input you have. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() It all depends on what works for you ... |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Thanks for posting that article and it was definitely an interesting read. I don't think it would be fair for me to put in my input seeing how I haven't completed an IM yet, but a lot of his arguments seem to make a lot of sense and I am going to consider during my IM training. |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I'm not going to touch the issue of whether short brick runs 'train the transition to running'. I will say two things: (1) I've never had trouble getting my legs to turn over at a good pace after the bike. If anything, I tend to go out too fast, not too slow. (2) Still, I find that doing a short run after a bike is a good way to get in some extra miles running. After all, I'm already dressed for it and warmed up and ready to go. If anything, I use 'brick runs' as an opportunity to get in some convenient miles on the run -- miles that I probably just wouldn't get otherwise. I think there's a benefit to that, in my case. |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() TriBoilermaker - 2009-12-23 10:34 AM Bryan, What do you think about his idea of the "metric" IM 4 or 5 weeks out? Also curious what your thoughts are on this strategy for a HIM? My "A" race in 2010 is a HIM in September and it will be my first HIM so I'm trying to take in as much info as I can on training strategies from different sources. Thanks for any input you have. I think doing a Half IM 2 months or so out or a long training day which might have a long bike followed by a long run is better than that idea. I don't think a lot of what he is advising is applicable to Half IM training where you certainly need more speed work oon both bike and run. |
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The Original ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Interesting. I agree with some points and others...notsomuch. I do think that if you have a strong running background you can get away with running less during IM training and having fresher legs to train for the bike. That is something that I struggled with training for IM Cozumel. My legs would always be so trashed when it came time to bike that all my rides were SLOW- regardless of the distance. And guess what happened on race day? I had a slow, miserable bike. I had some issues on the run but was still where I predicted I'd be. So...training for IM CDA my goal is to have fresher legs for my bike sessions so that I can push the pace and get my legs used to riding faster. And gain some cycling strength. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I read the article with interest, as someone who didn't do a lot of running during Ironman training (relatively speaking). My training was very bike focused and I questioned my coach many times as to why I wasn't running more. He told me not to worry, that my run would be there because I was training for an Ironman and not a marathon. I had a couple of running injuries in the year leading up to IMAZ, so that was another reason to limit the runs. In the end, my run was good. Next time around I look forward to having a much better run base going into IM training. IMHO, there's no one-size-fits-all approach to nailing the run. There seems to be a lot of trial and error amoung the athletes I train with, hopefully the more IMs I do, the more I'll figure what works for me personally. Until then, articles such as Friels and threads such as this are very helpful! |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Having never done and ironman this is another interesting read that I will incorporate into my training this year for IM Wisconsin 2010. |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() after you have the race fitness, which is not a given for all, i think dialing in nutrition tightly is so very important. i had the fitness, and thought i had the nutrition dialed in, but in reality i didn't and i suffered in the middle of the run until i got that broth in me. guess what>? im dialing the nutrition in better this time and i think thats a point that alot of people miss. |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() My 2 cents: A strong marathon comes down to correct pacing on the bike and nutrition. I did a 90 mileish ride and a 9 mile run to test my nutrition and pacing a maybe 2 months out. I felt great, but new I was a bit behind on my nutrition as I started running. I figured being a bottle short of fluid and 300 calories light was no big deal. It was about 6 miles into the run that the wheels fell off, and I limped home. I did a similar workout 2 or 3 more times so that I would not make the same mistake on race day. I know folks on here aren't big fans off long bricks, but I think they are very important for dialing in nutrition and pacing. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I sure hope he's right about getting strong(er) on the bike. I've just gone through a run buidup that has left me with a stress fracture and no running for 5 more weeks. I'm using the next 5 weeks to ramp big miles on the bike while I try to maintain the run fitness I had by doing eliptical work. I do believe that if you have the appropriate base running mileage then getting stronger on the bike will be a huge benefit. As age groupers big bike volume just isn't as easy as bigger run volume simply because of time constraints. I do find short 3-4 mile brick runs after long rides beneficial for the purpose of testing nutrition and fine tuning pacing. Most people go to hard off the bike and 3-4 miles is enough to make sure you get into a good run rhythm without going out too fast. You should also be able to tell within the first 4 miles if your nutrition is right. Too much and your stomach will feel it. Too little and you'll start to feel light headed. |
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Regular ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Hey guys, of course, I was looking for something else and came across this thread.. Article is great, whether you agree or not on a few, some or all points... as far as bricks go, there is a couple different reasons to do them at different lengths, which will help anyone... First, the reason MOST people come off the bike and run too fast is because they have their legs spinning at 90+ on their cadence... try holding that on your run and NOT going to fast. SHORT bricks are a great way to learn to control this. Also they are a great way to get used to the feeling of blood re-distribution to your running muscles and understanding what feels "normal" as you try to maintain YOUR race pace or strategy pace. ** comment to the guy who said he's never had issue with bike run transition... you should go pro. Every pro I've had the opportunity to speak to has indicated that this was a difficulty you never overcome completely but you learn to handle how you allow it to affect you. It affects them every time, but to different degrees. Second, the gentleman that indicated long bricks for nutrition checks.... he was right on... but of course in addition to that you can gauge your own fitness level, Heart rate drift..required efforts, etc.. just my .02... see you in Louisville '10, that's where the rubber meets the road... |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Boat_mon - 2009-12-28 5:46 PM First, the reason MOST people come off the bike and run too fast is because they have their legs spinning at 90+ on their cadence... try holding that on your run and NOT going to fast. SHORT bricks are a great way to learn to control this. Also they are a great way to get used to the feeling of blood re-distribution to your running muscles and understanding what feels "normal" as you try to maintain YOUR race pace or strategy pace. ** comment to the guy who said he's never had issue with bike run transition... you should go pro. Every pro I've had the opportunity to speak to has indicated that this was a difficulty you never overcome completely but you learn to handle how you allow it to affect you. It affects them every time, but to different degrees. First time I have ever heard the cadence argument. I'm sorry but I don't think there is any evidence that that is the case, but it's interesting! I agree about the "feel" concept, but really that's where brick efficacy ends and longer bricks simply become MORE run volume. And like Experior, I have never had an issue running of the bike. Pro's race a very different race than most AG'er's, even one's like me. I'm sure after riding at 90%+ of FT they have trouble running, so would I. Take a bit off that pace and you might have a different story. |
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Regular ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() excellent point.. the lower the force used in your cycling would make the run transition easier... quick example, you probably all did this as a kid.. stand next to the wall, 3 to 4" away, and with the back of your hand that is down at your side, push against the wall as hard as you possible can for a full minute..PUSH HARD, sustain your force.... after the minute.. step away. You'll quickly see, just because you stop pushing, doesn't mean your muscles do your arm will lift like a feather. Like the bike, great force, over and over, pressing downwards, then transition to running is a change in that force your trying to generate... going more forward, not downward ... but I don't mean for this to get into cycling bio-mechanics ;-) but like I said above, great point... |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() ^^ Once again, a very original concept....although completely unrelated to the actual physiology... ![]() |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() i never understood the whole argument of running off the bike being difficult for the common triathlete. but it is apparently. as noted above, for me and many others the problem is the other way around, namely running too fast off the bike and learning to reign that in. i think the brick can help that Doug. also, what seems to help me is to shorten my stride and pace myself properly. having said that, i still need to figure out how to nail that IM marathon. i think it begins with dialing nutrition in, but the more i read the more i think it has so much to do with cycling fitness. thus, with Shanks help, im figuring ways to ride long and hard more this year. swim and run volume may drop proportionately but i think the payoff may be worth it.... |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Interesting thing about articles like this is the wide range of opinions available even from the experts. I'm sure most of it is useful advice, but I was really surprised by |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() phatknot - 2009-12-29 7:19 AM i never understood the whole argument of running off the bike being difficult for the common triathlete. but it is apparently. Interesting. I've always assumed the b/r transition was difficult for everyone. It's certainly always been a struggle for me. When I start running of the bike, it takes a lot of mental effort to turn my legs over at the rate I'd like. |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() brown_dog_us - 2009-12-24 8:09 AM My 2 cents: A strong marathon comes down to correct pacing on the bike and nutrition. I did a 90 mileish ride and a 9 mile run to test my nutrition and pacing a maybe 2 months out. I felt great, but new I was a bit behind on my nutrition as I started running. I figured being a bottle short of fluid and 300 calories light was no big deal. It was about 6 miles into the run that the wheels fell off, and I limped home. I did a similar workout 2 or 3 more times so that I would not make the same mistake on race day. I know folks on here aren't big fans off long bricks, but I think they are very important for dialing in nutrition and pacing. EXACTLY!! I did a bunch of 75-80 mile bikes with 3-4 mile runs and thought i had my nutrition dialed in. But that just isn't long enough to know if what you ate on the bike, and when you ate it, is going to work. I think some of the most important workouts should be at least a few LONG bricks. 70-90 mile bike and at LEAST 10 miles on the run. If you do that you will know if your nutrition will work. I had nutrition issues and it hit me about mile 8 when my stomach was totally full of fluid and nothing would go down until it all came up. |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() ballyard7 ![]() i did those long bricks, at least 3 of em. and i still didnt know what kind of world of hurt i was in for when i hit the 11-12 mile mark of the mary..... i really am not sure you can replicate the IM but you can learn your pacing and nutrition best you can and hope for the best. |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() ballyard7 - 2009-12-29 12:01 PM EXACTLY!! I did a bunch of 75-80 mile bikes with 3-4 mile runs and thought i had my nutrition dialed in. But that just isn't long enough to know if what you ate on the bike, and when you ate it, is going to work. I think some of the most important workouts should be at least a few LONG bricks. 70-90 mile bike and at LEAST 10 miles on the run. If you do that you will know if your nutrition will work. I had nutrition issues and it hit me about mile 8 when my stomach was totally full of fluid and nothing would go down until it all came up. Sounds good in theory but adding extra mileage will not solve your nutrition issue nor will it bring it to light. |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() bryancd - 2009-12-29 11:43 AM ballyard7 - 2009-12-29 12:01 PM EXACTLY!! I did a bunch of 75-80 mile bikes with 3-4 mile runs and thought i had my nutrition dialed in. But that just isn't long enough to know if what you ate on the bike, and when you ate it, is going to work. I think some of the most important workouts should be at least a few LONG bricks. 70-90 mile bike and at LEAST 10 miles on the run. If you do that you will know if your nutrition will work. I had nutrition issues and it hit me about mile 8 when my stomach was totally full of fluid and nothing would go down until it all came up. Sounds good in theory but adding extra mileage will not solve your nutrition issue nor will it bring it to light.X2 |
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