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2010-03-30 12:33 PM

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Subject: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
I posted a thread on this on ST. While I was at the ZOOT camp. I heard from a pro who raced Oceanside that the Wtaer Rover issue cam up again and there is a possibility it might be banned Sept 1st for North American IM events. The thread generated this response from De Soto as to the current situation and procedures:


Hey Bryan, Chuck Cates here with De Soto. This is the latest:

Ironman is wetsuit legal
Written by: Dan Empfield
Date: Tue Feb 09 2010 After a flurry of hand-ringing posts on the Slowtwitch reader forum in response to new rules posted on the Oceanside 70.3 website, Ironman has dropped its prohibition of wetsuits and swimskins that appeared overnight on the Ironman California portal.
Wetsuits that exceed 5mm in thickness will be legal at Ironman events that are wetsuit-legal, as will so-called fastskins or swimskins at all Ironman events.
Ironman's Steve Meckfessel stressed that there is no ban in place on either style of garment, and, no date when any such ban is currently contemplated. Any rule changes will depend on the discussions on rule dispensations between Ironman and USA Triathlon.
At the start of the day today, the Ironman California website had updated its rules to contain these two new swim-specific directives:
Swim Course Rules and Instructions 7. Wetsuits must be 5mm thick or less.
Concerns were several. Most obvious were dozens or hundreds of competitors registered at wetsuit-legal Ironman events that had invested six-hundred dollars or more in De Soto's Water Rover, a wetsuit that featured panels exceeding the 5mm max rule thickness.
The other concern, voiced by two executives at USAT, is whether Ironman had followed its own stated policy—and USAT's requirement—to apply for and be granted a dispensation from USAT's rules. USA Triathlon has no rule prohibiting wetsuit thickness or against the use of swimskins in swim events, so, for Ironman to ban such apparel should require a dispensation.
Ironman has not yet submitted any of its rule dispensation requests for 2010 to USAT, but, Meckfessel maintains that most or all dispensation topics have been discussed for months, going back to the Clearwater event in November, and Ironman and USAT have a verbal understanding on many or most of the rule variances. The submission of this list of dispensations to USAT by Ironman is imminent.
Might this prohibition on these two garment classes return? Perhaps, depending on what dispensations have been requested of USAT. In any case, neither class of garment will be prohibited until, at the earliest, September 1 of 2010, the commencement of Ironman's qualifying season, according to Meckfessel.
Asked if January 1, 2011 is another, potential, and logical, date of implementation, Meckfessel agreed.
The decision to allow both wetsuits and swimskins gives Ironman an opportunity to fine tune the crafting of these new rules, assuming such dispensations are granted. Is a 5mm wetsuit one that has any panel exceeding 5mm? Or rubber coverage that, on average, does not exceed 5mm? What about 5mm seams? Or rubber that is 5mm nominally but, during the bun-slicing process at a rubber manufacturer, has panels that vary from 4.8 to 5.5mm?


2010-03-30 3:04 PM
in reply to: #2758087

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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
This is how I interpreted that message:

Yes, we know the suit does not follow USAT rules, but there are enough loopholes present that we dont really care.
2010-03-30 3:15 PM
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
nhunter344 - 2010-03-30 3:04 PM This is how I interpreted that message:

Yes, we know the suit does not follow USAT rules, but there are enough loopholes present that we dont really care.


I interpret it differently, that USAT has no such rules but that Ironman wants to impose a rule above and beyond what USAT requires, and prohibit the suit.

"USA Triathlon has no rule prohibiting wetsuit thickness or against the use of swimskins in swim events, so, for Ironman to ban such apparel should require a dispensation. "

Edited by the bear 2010-03-30 3:16 PM
2010-03-30 3:17 PM
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
the bear - 2010-03-30 2:15 PM
I interpret it differently, that USAT has no such rules but that Ironman wants to impose a rule above and beyond what USAT requires, and prohibit the suit.


I think this is closer to the truth.
2010-03-30 3:29 PM
in reply to: #2758521

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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
10mm around your legs...

holy buoyancy batman!
2010-03-30 3:33 PM
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
the bear - 2010-03-30 4:15 PM
nhunter344 - 2010-03-30 3:04 PM This is how I interpreted that message:

Yes, we know the suit does not follow USAT rules, but there are enough loopholes present that we dont really care.


I interpret it differently, that USAT has no such rules but that Ironman wants to impose a rule above and beyond what USAT requires, and prohibit the suit.

"USA Triathlon has no rule prohibiting wetsuit thickness or against the use of swimskins in swim events, so, for Ironman to ban such apparel should require a dispensation. "


oops. Meant Ironman rules.


2010-03-30 3:48 PM
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
I don't know much about the wetsuit, but I will tell you that two very prominant companies are dragging their feet about manufacturing and sending me the tri swim skins. They are basically in a wait and see mode right now.  After watching the mess that banning the full body suits made in the world of swimming, I am sure they are not willing (or financially able) to take a bath like that again. (Speedo, who is publically traded said they lost 3.6 million on the rule change.) So instead of selling the suits and coming up with some sort of return policy for the retailers and customers, it sounds to me like they are just not going to sell (many) suits until everything is final. I would be willing to bet though that this is the last year for the skin if you are doing an Ironman.
2010-03-30 4:07 PM
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
It seems to me that a little foresight would go a long ways, here.  Sure, they could institute some sort of 5mm rule (whether that be max, average, or whatever).  Then 3 years from now someone will come up with a material that is <5mm but has the buoyancy of 10mm and they'll have a new problem on their hands.  Assuming that the issue here is buoyancy (i.e., that they want to keep it to some reasonable maximum) then why not use some measure of total buoyancy and set a maximum?
2010-03-30 4:20 PM
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
camaleon - 2010-03-30 4:29 PM 10mm around your legs...

holy buoyancy batman!


seriously?  10mms?  why not just allow pull buoys and water wings.
2010-03-30 4:27 PM
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
jsklarz - 2010-03-30 4:20 PM
camaleon - 2010-03-30 4:29 PM 10mm around your legs...

holy buoyancy batman!


seriously?  10mms?  why not just allow pull buoys and water wings.


x2. Everything has to have a limit, and IMO 5mm is a descent level.

but we have the same issue with the bikes...
2010-03-30 5:13 PM
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy

A steady diet of beer for three weeks leading up to your IM will certainly provide you additional buoyancy far beyond anything a wetsuit can offer.



2010-03-30 5:49 PM
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2010-03-30 5:56 PM
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
IMO this issue is the result of the USAT lack of a definitive rule.  The ITU and most other NGB's have rules that specify the maximum thickness at any point of 5mm.  Granted, I have never seen this measured but at least the rule is on the booksas opposed to leaving it wide open.

Shane
2010-03-30 5:57 PM
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2010-03-30 6:01 PM
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
PennState - 2010-03-30 7:57 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the lack of a definitive rule that led to the fiasco in competetive swimming and the speed suits? Now that they have ruled against the suits, it will be a long time before any records are broken again.


I think the big problem in competitive swimming was that when Speedo designed their suit, the checked with FINA every step of the way and had their suit approved.  Then, when their suit was demonstrably faster, everyone started doing the same thing and FINA decided to retroactively ban all the new suits.

This is similar to what the ICU has done on several occasions (most notably with TT bikes) where they interpret a rule differently than they had in the past and suddenly a bike that was legal (or bars, or position, or ...) is then deemed illegal and athletes, teams and companies are left scrambling.

Shane
2010-03-31 8:49 AM
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
PennState - 2010-03-30 6:49 PM so what's the next limit? 12mm? 15mm? 20mm? Sort of sad, as swimming is the event that is the biggest challenge for many triathletes, which I think is a good thing. (ie; good to face and improve our limiters in life). However the technology may obviate the need to improve much at swimming. I'm probably exaggerating, but look at what the speed suits did to the sport of competetive swimming.


I couldn't agree more.  Swimming was by far the biggest IM challenge for me and the journey would have been far less interesting (for me -- others have their own limiters and challenges) if I hadn't been somewhat scared of the swim for most of that time.


2010-03-31 9:14 AM
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
To me the root, underlying question is how much can your equipment - be it a swim "device", a bike, a pair of shoes, whatever - assist you in completing the individual leg of a triathlon?

The spirit of competition is that it is you against your opponent (with your opponent either a different athlete, yourself, time, whatever).  When you add the variable of outside assistance such as wetsuit with 10mm calf coverings that essentially act as pull-buoy then you are not on a slippery slope but already sliding down it.

There is no question that most athletes have one leg of the race that they excel at better than the others - and that swimming is typically the sport that most athletes suffer through as the weakest link in their race.  This means that wetsuits help poor swimmers to the detriment of fishes in the sport . The question is how much do you disadvantage others to gain that advantage?

Note: I am not a fish by any means and am thankful for a wetsuit in longer distance races ... but I also readiliy admit that it provides an advantage in the water (which is one reason why I did not compain about the swim at USAT Nationals and instead thought it was poetic justice for the fishes out there).

Bottom line is that you have to draw the line somewhere about "outside assistance" and how much your equipment can artificially assist your efforts.
2010-03-31 9:15 AM
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Master
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy

As someone who still has fears of swimming (note, I swim a 1:30-1:40 100 and have competed at nationals), I don't see any problem with the suits.  As for those who throw out the 5mm limit, this is an arbitrary number that has been floated in posts around the web.  There is no 5mm rule.  And there are several other suits that alread exceed 5mm in the chest area. 

The problem that we will face is that unless you have a way to enforce the rule (measure all suits or provide a list of acceptable suits), you are essentially banning the suit if it says Water Rover on it.  That is not right.

 

2010-03-31 9:24 AM
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
velocomp - 2010-03-31 11:15 AM

As for those who throw out the 5mm limit, this is an arbitrary number that has been floated in posts around the web.  There is no 5mm rule.  And there are several other suits that alread exceed 5mm in the chest area. 



From the ITU rules which many NGB's simply adopt:

Illegal Equipment: 

(i) Athletes must not use:

 

·Wetsuits with thickness exceeding 5mm;

Shane



Edited by gsmacleod 2010-03-31 9:25 AM
2010-03-31 10:16 AM
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Master
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy

gsmacleod - 2010-03-31 8:24 AM
velocomp - 2010-03-31 11:15 AM

 

As for those who throw out the 5mm limit, this is an arbitrary number that has been floated in posts around the web.  There is no 5mm rule.  And there are several other suits that alread exceed 5mm in the chest area. 



From the ITU rules which many NGB's simply adopt:

Illegal Equipment: 

(i) Athletes must not use:

 

 

 

 

 

·Wetsuits with thickness exceeding 5mm;

Shane

 

 

You are correct.  I should have said, USAT has no such rule.  And of course being in the US, I only care about their rules.   I forget that people outside of the US and USAT race also.  Maybe we could stop that?

 

2010-03-31 10:56 AM
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
SevenZulu - 2010-03-30 5:13 PM

A steady diet of beer for three weeks leading up to your IM will certainly provide you additional buoyancy far beyond anything a wetsuit can offer.



I think I need to update my training plan.Tongue out

Edited by cornchexs 2010-03-31 10:59 AM


2010-03-31 12:59 PM
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
Update, as per another thread on ST form Dave, H2Ofun, who spoke with Skip directly:

"So, let me try again. I just talked with Charlie and Skip from USAT, and Skip has approved rule changes for WTC that he will be sending me today, that I will post when I get them.

The couple we talked about.

1). 5mm thickness max has been approved.
2). water temp cutoff lowering to like 76.2 has been approved.

Skip did not remember a shoe clip in rule, so will be looking into that and letting me know. "

So no more Water Rover.

2010-03-31 1:31 PM
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Master
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
I never would of purchased it, the 5mm cap is used in quite a few places and I always thought it was a rule here. It just seemed like it was going to get banned, just too much suit.


I'd like to see them lower the temp for wetsuits down to 74 anyway.
2010-03-31 1:44 PM
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
bryancd - 2010-03-31 12:59 PM  So no more Water Rover.


In WTC races.
2010-03-31 1:45 PM
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Subject: RE: The latest on the Water Rover controvesy
the bear - 2010-03-31 12:44 PM

bryancd - 2010-03-31 12:59 PM  So no more Water Rover.


In WTC races.



Correct. Question is, will Desoto be able to sell enough to make it economically viable without WTC.

Edited by bryancd 2010-03-31 1:46 PM
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