Running frequency and IM training

What poster above suggests for volume is that which a coaching group Q2T suggests. It is tough to pick out part of their philosophy and not read and do it all. How many training for IM can do that volume?

First IM I did 3 runs a week, second mostly 4x a week, and last year was doing 5x a week until knee injury due to Lymes.

For me my best IM run I was running mostly 4x a week sometimes 5, but I was using a coach and he was guiding my training. When I only ran 3x a week and long run was huge percentage of my run volume I didn't recover or absorb the running. Last year I was running mostly 5x a week until I had unrelated to running knee injury. Prior to my injury I had my best HIM run with slight negative split with the 5x a week training.

Reality training needs to fit into our lives. How much can you train?

Getting that extra run into your week can you be creative, like do it right after a swim or after a bike not for brick training but more for training time efficiency.

She is correct, I forgot to mention that. Great point Kathy, that is the philosophy my coach uses who is a coach for qt2 systems

Scott

I may just hit him up.  We discussed run volume a few months ago before my last injury but I may have to hit him up again.

That volume seems pretty high, my biggest factor is showing up to the line healthy; that's not to say I don't want to get optimal results but injury has always been what has held me back and I'd rather have a lower but consistent block than something that may put me out.

What ship did you become a shellback? 

USS Juneau, circa 1997

The volume is high and gnerally you slowly progress to it.  Also note that the vast majority of the volume is completed at aerobic endurance pace (Z1 heart rate) so its at very low intensity.  If you want to see what it looks like 18 weeks out from an IM, check out my training log. 

Also lots of people do not hit critical volume for an IM -- generally 2/3 of critical volume is conisdered "safe" for racing the event.

I actually did my undergrad at Massachusetts Maritime Academy, I crossed then in 1998. 

I agree that volume is large, but that's what they expect you at least to reach 2/3 of that volume or recommend not doing the IM if you can't meet it. 

Scott

Need to clarify something though, QT2 Z1 is not your typical Z1 though, Qt2 Z1 is more of a Z2-Z3 on a 5 zones. Qt2 Utilizes three zones ZR (Recovery) Z1 , Z2 and BST

Scott

My biggest limiter is my on call schedule.  I'm on call 50% of the time, and it really only means no racing during that time and more boring loops on my long stuff.

I have no children and my wife travels 75% of the time, so I probably could train 25 hours a week!

Thanks for the advice Kathy.  I'm leaning towards five, with  5,3,8,16,3 with the only the 5 being an up tempo intensity run.  The long run wouldn't always be 16, but a gradual build up to either a long of 18 or 20.

I'm also toying around with getting a coach, but to be honest, making the training plan is part of the fun of it for me.

Training load is a function of your own needs and limitations and not based on some preconceived formula or 'system'.

There is evidence people adapt different to training load based on volume, frequency and intensity, but also based on what your specific needs are. To state that one need to log certain arbitrary volume is not only mislead but also it just addresses one variable of what constitutes training load.

It would be nice if all athletes would present the same needs and adapt at the same rate to any training load, but physiologically speaking we just don't work that way.

OP - I would keep doing what you are doing and see how your body can cope with the total load (including the increase in biking and swimming) plus your daily life priorities and see if it is manageable or not. If you need to cut down frequency you'll have to adjust based on your own limitations. You might find out keeping 5 run x week is doable or you might need to adjust based on your long rides, swims, etc. 

Maybe ever other week you'll have a longer ride and in between a mid distance ride; in those week you might be able to do 5x runs and on the long ride weeks do 4x runs. There are many ways to accommodated to match your needs, it just takes some experimenting and listening to your body.

Thanks for the input Jorge, I am leaning towards a rotation of 4x one week then 5x the next. 

Your methods make sense that training load is specific to the individual; in the past I've listened to people insisting I have to hit a certain number by a certain time and it hasn't worked out.  That's not to say the advice provided above isn't valued.  Right now I'm looking at maxing out at somewhere around 40-45 mpw, and I'm still not too sure on the bike but at least 200+ mpw. 

Its do-able, it just requires a wide base and regular higher volume training during the base and build phases prior to the critical volume weeks.  Obviously you can't just tack that kind of volume onto the end of a plan based on 10-15 hours/week of training.

Generally the bike and run overload weeks do not take place during the same week.  The bike will be 4 weeks-ish out and the run 3. 

That's the thing with this arbitrary volume guidelines; while they might apply to some, it doesn't apply to everyone. I know plenty FOP or even Elite athletes training much less volume than the above guideline suggest. That doesn't stop them to go very very fast. The key point to keep in mind is doing 'enough' training load (volume + intensity) to maximize your training gains. That will be a function of many variables like current fitness, genes, adaptations rate, years of endurance training, gender, age, weight, etc.

Granted, for long distance race most athletes in general will benefit from specific training which is long steady sessions (hence higher volume/lower intensity) but one can still be rather successful by making the most out of our training time availability via a wise training load management. 

I wish I could train 30+ hrs a week but besides the fact it might take time for my body to adapt to handle such load, I simply don't have the time to do and still be able to attend other life priorities like work, family, friends, etc. Still, I could train on average 12hrs per week and still perform better than someone training more hours just by the simple fact I can make my limited training more efficient and maximize my training adaptations focusing on my limitations.

You've gotten great responses from people more knowledgeable than I.

I would just add my personal experience that running 4-6x/week (averaging 5) during HIM and IM training works well for me.  I find myself to be less injury prone if I run more frequently.

I have arrived, but I have nothing to add that Jorge didn't already say.  For me, that 6-9xWK run plan made sense... based on my backgroun, strengths, race execution plans, injury history, etc.  It allowed me to get super fit for the run, stay injury free, and stay fresh enough to get in solid bike work too.

I remember one stretch of time in the IMLP "official thread" where I was being criticized pretty vocally by some IM vets for doing too much run training, and Jorge basically stepped in and said "maybe so, maybe not... it depends entirely on Josh as an individual, and we don't have all that info."  I had all that info and had carefully decided on my strategy... and it worked.  I didn't have the consistent running base that is the foundation to endurance running, and I decided this approach was the best way to build it.  And by the way I think MOST beginning IM atheletes try to shortcut or skip that base to their detriment.

All that said, if you decide that high frequency running is right for you, here are some strategies to make it more doable:

1. it sounds like you have time.  Moderate the effort of the runs (and build at an appropriate pace in the coming months) so that your legs feel fresh.  If you trash your legs 6x a week it's not going to work out.  The philosophy behind the approach is that you will make adaptations in fitness, running economy, and connective tissues in a low-risk environment.

2. don't poo poo the frequent short runs that feel like they don't do anything.

3. get up 45 minutes early and squeeze in that run several times a week.  It's also not a bad idea to throw a 30 minute run before or after a bike ride (I prefer before, generally).

4. separate your long ride and long run (don't do them on saturday/sunday).  As has been pointed out, they are two of your key weekly workouts... they deserve fresh legs.

5. don't feel like you need to run as long as most people in your long run.  You are building to a large weekly volume and you will get fit even if you don't do those 18+ mile runs advocated by most marathon plans.  A 3 hour run is likely to require more recovery time, and therefore compromised workouts on the following day(s), than it's worth.  Doing a truly long run while in the "run frequency" style plan is like trying to cram the hardest parts of two separate plans together.

6. doubles are your friend on recovery days.  When I was exceeding 50mpw in IM training I would often have 6 mile recovery runs, and would sometimes break them up into an AM and PM easy jog.  I usually felt amazing the next day.

7. bike commuting is your friend.  It kills two birds with one stone, and leaves more available time for running while still working on your fitness.  This presupposes that you have the base to do lots of biking and running, but are short on time.  I had a 45 mile commute I did 2-4 times per week on the bike (one way -- took transit the other), and that was all of my weekly bike riding except for a long ride on saturday.  It left all non-commuting time open for runs/swims.

8. run commuting is your friend.  In my case, that sometimes meant 2 miles to the pool and 2 miles home from the pool with a swim in between.  Again, this is about saving time and assumes you have the base fitness to do the extra miles.

Feel free to look at my logs in the March-June 2010 range to see some examples.

Wow Josh, for nothing to add you sure added alot

I've already taken a look at your and a few other peoples build during their big weeks to get a rough idea of where I need to get.

I feel like my optimal training is running 3 days, 1 day off, 3 days, 1 day off but scheduling that would be difficult even in a run only enviroment so the plan is M WT SS, with the a fast effort on Thurs and a long every other Sat.  The weeks of my lower distance running I'm putting in a long 100 mile ride on Sunday.  Below you can see a ballpark of what I'm looking at for my big run weeks:

Two a days worry me as I tore my achilles on my 2nd run of the day.  I still may give it a try. 

I've been putting in a lot of thought into my long run and the one principle I keep hearing is not to go over 3 hours.  If I average a 10min/pace that puts me at 18 miles.  I have no idea what my pace will be by September, I did have a base at one point but after taking huge chunks of time off last year I've lost most of it.

I'd like to commute but the big issue no shower facilities.  I'm in the desert and only 3 miles from work, but its 100 heat on some days.   I used to run to the pool and may start doing that again, its 6 miles away.

Thanks for the advice, and feel free to check up on me every few weeks or so.

I tend to agree with Jorge's philosophy. This is an individual decision. Although I'm not an expert in triathlon, I used to be a fairly competitive runner. Past tense...that's why I'm doing triathlons now. After two surgeries on the same knee I decided that my 7 day 60+ mile training weeks were a thing of the past.

Now I'm doing 3 runs a week in preparation for IMLP. However each run has a purpose. Long run, tempo run, interval run. The other stuff are junk miles.

A final observation, running of the three disciplines causes your joints to endure a lot more trauma than swimming or biking. But then again,some people can run forever and never have a problem.

Good luck whichever path you choose.

I'm currently running 5-6x (shoot for 6x but doesn't always happen) week for IMLP.  Granted, I HAVE been slacking on swimming and biking but can comfortably ride 110+.  Getting ready to start upping the biking/swimming real soon.  I've been running frequently to eliminate running as SUCH a weakness of mine and it appears to be working. 

Last year's 10 mile race: 1:36.xx 

Same 10 mile race this year: 1:14.xx  

Personally, I think the most important thing while running 4-5+ times a week for IM training is to make sure that MOST of your runs are VERY easy.  All my recovery runs are done at a ridiculously slow pace, based on HR.  It's often very frustrating to run @ such a slow pace, but the recent 10-mile race gave me confidence that it is paying off.  How it will play out in July for Placid?  Only time will tell.  If my legs start feeling trashed I'll back off, if not I'll continue 5-6x.    

Hawaii or Hospital!