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First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles????
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 2011-03-31 11:42 PM |
Member 19 Las Vegas |  Subject: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles????I am doing my firt IM which will be Vineman 30 Oct. I've started doing tri's last July and completed 3 Olympics, a 70.3 and a marathon. So I purchased the Gold level to build my own plan but everytime I make the plan the longest run is 16 miles. So far I've been tng myself by just swimming twice a week (swim is no problem) and running my marathon plan which was 4 days a week and then cycling 3x a week. But on my runs, there are several 15+ mile runs to include a 20 mile run. On my IM tng plan there are very few long runs. The cycling portion looks good but I'm worried that if I do this tng plan my run will fall short? Is this normal? Am I over tng by doing a full marathon plan in my IM tng? I'm really confused on why the running is such a short distance. Last, my 17 week plan starts this Sunday and the first 4 weeks is very very light tng. I'm already biking 50 mile rides, running 15 mile runs and swimming 4000 yards twice a week. Should I stop the long dist and stick with the plan or should I just continue doing my own tng until the plan reaches the level at which I'm doing now? Thank you for any words of wisdom. I'm very exctied but totally lost on whether to do the IM tng plan provided here or just continue with my own workouts. Plus my marathon tng plan peaks 5 June for a marathon so about 7 weeks early.... Rex |
 2011-04-01 6:36 AM in reply to: #3424715 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2011-04-01 7:07 AM in reply to: #3424715 |
Champion 19812    MA | Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? Many plans and coaches limit long runs for IM training to 2:30 due to benefit/risk of longer long runs as well as to recovery needed after longer runs. Other factor is what percentage of your run volume is your long run. Obviously how far different folks travel in 2:30 varies depending on their pace. How long long runs should be in IM training has many different opinions.
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| 2011-04-01 8:43 AM in reply to: #3424715 |
Master 3546  Millersville, MD | Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? Agree with the others. Just to drive home the recovery point -- if you are wiped out for 2 days after your long run, that's two days of run/bike/swimming training that will be sub par. It's all about maximizing your training load in all 3 disciplines, and IMHO truly long runs throw a monkey wrench in that by killing 1/3+ of your week on a single workout. Many (self included) have finished the run fairly high in the standings on a long run of about 2.5 hours. Whether that's best depends on what the rest of your schedule looks like, though. |
| 2011-04-01 9:06 AM in reply to: #3424715 |
| over a barrier | Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? I think there is too much discussion around the "longest" training event in IM training whether bike or run. My longest run will be in the 2:20 - 2:30 range and net 18 miles or so. That doesn't take into account that I will have about 10 of this runs at varying paces and be verging 35-45 miles for 3 months leading up to the event. |
| 2011-04-01 10:44 AM in reply to: #3424715 |
Alpharetta, Georgia Bronze member | Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? Last year my plan's longest run was set for 2:30. I am a slow runner so I upped it to 2:50 and that yielded me just over 15 miles. Did I finish the Ironman? Yes. I walked most of the last 6 miles though. |
| 2011-04-01 10:54 AM in reply to: #3424715 |
| Elite 5316 Alturas, California | Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? Um first off if you are talking the Vineman in Santa Rosa area it is at the end of July, not in October. In marathon training I try to get in 3-4 20 mile runs, but in IM training I have been fine with 17-18 mile runs. It really is a balancing act with the 6 hour bike rides and such. My IM mary was only 20 minutes off my open mary time with long runs in the 16-18 mile range, again in that 2:30 range. So yes you can run shorter for an IM mary than for an open mary, but then you will likely be running it slower as you will already have been out there 7-8 hours before you start it. As far as the training plan goes I wouldn't reduce my vollume to match the first week of the plan if your base is higher than the base of the plan. I am currenlty running 50 miles a week with a 20 long, biking 110 miles with a 60 long a week and swimming well nm swimming (shoulder issue atm). So I would just keep your current base, match the days for workouts (long med short M W S) and converge with the plan at the point where it catches up to your current training. So if you are currently doing work at the week 6 level, just keep doing that and then once the plan catches up to you, move on to week 7 and so forth. Alternatively, as your base is similar to a HIM level of fitness right now, and you have 15 weeks ish before your race, rather than starting the 17 week plan you could grab the HIM to IM bridge 12 week plan and work that instead. That way you wouldn't have those couple weeks of lower vollume to adjust for. Edited by Baowolf 2011-04-01 10:59 AM |
| 2011-04-01 11:03 AM in reply to: #3424715 |
| Veteran 416 | Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? I favor having several longer runs (18-22) miles during IM training, but then again I've always ran a marathon paired with a vacation/rest week during training too. Has worked pretty well me for at least. Especially being the last event, I think it's beneficial to have strong training in it. It's also a mental boost to not slow down (or as little as possible) during the run and to be able to finish it strong. |
| 2011-04-01 11:06 AM in reply to: #3424715 |
| over a barrier | Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? Another element not often discussed is when you start the marathon. An athlete starting their marathon at 6:30 on the clock (1hr swim + 5:30 bike as an example) will be much more prepared to run the entire marathon (assuming that 5:30 was paced correctly of course) than an athlete starting their marathon several hours later. The data suggests if you're coming off the bike after a 6:45+ bike split you're going to be walking regardless of run training. I think that is more a sign of overall fitness than a sign of improper run training. Triathlon training is about S/B/R and overall fitness which is why I hate answering how long is your X , Y or Z. Its usually one of the first questions, I'm asked during my sit down meetings with potential clients. I often look at results looking for outliers that say have a 7hr bike and a 3:50 marathon. Hard to find. Edited by running2far 2011-04-01 11:07 AM |
| 2011-04-01 2:23 PM in reply to: #3425319 |
| Veteran 221 | Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? running2far - 2011-04-01 11:06 AM Another element not often discussed is when you start the marathon. An athlete starting their marathon at 6:30 on the clock (1hr swim + 5:30 bike as an example) will be much more prepared to run the entire marathon (assuming that 5:30 was paced correctly of course) than an athlete starting their marathon several hours later. The data suggests if you're coming off the bike after a 6:45+ bike split you're going to be walking regardless of run training. I think that is more a sign of overall fitness than a sign of improper run training. Triathlon training is about S/B/R and overall fitness which is why I hate answering how long is your X , Y or Z. Its usually one of the first questions, I'm asked during my sit down meetings with potential clients. I often look at results looking for outliers that say have a 7hr bike and a 3:50 marathon. Hard to find.
Very interesting! Thanks for posting. |
| 2011-04-01 5:10 PM in reply to: #3424715 |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? Rex I helped a bit in the creation of the Custom Plan Creator and have written most of the plans on BT for the Gold members. Just to give you a short background on my experience: I've written the plans for our AG World Championship Teams, along with coaching and writing plans for athletes completing their first IM to those who have gone on to qualify for IM Hawaii. I only tell you this to create a 'little' credability since you don't know me. ;-) Secondly, Running2far has some great points, so listen to him. My thinking around this question is this: training for a marathon, and training for an ironman aren't even close to the same thing. During an ironman build up, you are training 15-20 hours per week, along with 3-4 hours of swimming, and 7-12 hours of cycling per week. So, with all that aerobic volume going on, you are doing more than you ever would for the marathon and we haven't even added in the running yet. A good age group athlete, and I mean a sub 11 hour ironman athlete, doesn't have to run more than 35-45 miles per week. I have plenty of athletes that I've coaches to 10.5 hour or better ironmans on LESS than 12 hours on average of training. You can run 20 miles if you like, and like others have mentioned, quite wisely I might add, the recovery is what takes it out of you. IF it takes you 2-3 days to recover from a 20 mile run, then is it worth running an extra 3-5 miles in one run? Probably not. Also, if you really want to run 20 miles, then run 16 in the morning, and 4 in the afternoon. That 2nd run will give you a good idea what the last 10k of the ironman will feel like. Mostly, with all the aerobic condition you are already doing with the swim and bike, there really is no need to 20 miles. If you have run a marathon, then you KNOW you can finish a marathon, so really you don't have anything to prove to yourself. If you want to see what it's like to run long after a long ride, then ride for 6 hours and go run for 2 hours. Then go hike or walk fast for another 2-3 hours. That's a long day, but you'll get to know very quickly what your body needs to get through a 10-17 hour race. What you can do, and I have seen guys who run close to 3 hours off the bike do this, is use the run/walk method. Try something like 8' run / 2' walk and see how that feels. I have had great success using this method with my athletes. Mostly, it's up to you, but the costs far outweigh the benefits of running 20 miles in ironman training. I hope this helps a bit. |
| 2011-04-01 5:13 PM in reply to: #3425275 |
| 8763 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? lisac957 - 2011-04-01 9:44 AM Last year my plan's longest run was set for 2:30. I am a slow runner so I upped it to 2:50 and that yielded me just over 15 miles. Did I finish the Ironman? Yes. I walked most of the last 6 miles though. What was your longest bike ride for IM training? What was your bike time at IM? |
| 2011-04-01 6:15 PM in reply to: #3425319 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2011-04-01 8:31 PM in reply to: #3426017 |
| Champion 5312 Calgary | Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? Fred Doucette - 2011-04-01 5:15 PM running2far - 2011-04-01 12:06 PM Another element not often discussed is when you start the marathon. An athlete starting their marathon at 6:30 on the clock (1hr swim + 5:30 bike as an example) will be much more prepared to run the entire marathon (assuming that 5:30 was paced correctly of course) than an athlete starting their marathon several hours later. The data suggests if you're coming off the bike after a 6:45+ bike split you're going to be walking regardless of run training. I think that is more a sign of overall fitness than a sign of improper run training. Triathlon training is about S/B/R and overall fitness which is why I hate answering how long is your X , Y or Z. Its usually one of the first questions, I'm asked during my sit down meetings with potential clients. I often look at results looking for outliers that say have a 7hr bike and a 3:50 marathon. Hard to find.
The bolded is a great point! Ultimately triathlon is one sport even though it seems like 3. ie; it is a sustained effort of on your system involving SBR. Lack of fitness in swim/bike and pacing beyond the said fitness is far more responsible for run failures than a lack of long training runs. I ran a 4:04 at IMLP in 2009 on very minimal running mileage (several months in the 20 total mile range and only 1 month in the year leading up that was 100 miles (happened to be the month of the race which included the 26.2 mile race). I was battling an injury but was able to bike and swim. The run was possible because I had very good swim and bike fitness and it helped me into the marathon in the best position despite a complete lack of running prior. Took 20 min off that run in 2010 as I was able to run a lot more. Ultimately the run is mainly about fitness in the swim and bike. It is also about run fitness, but regardless of run fitness it won't go well if swim or bike are not trained for, paced and raced smartly. well, it is also true that the run will not go well even if the swim and bike are well paced if you don't have the run fitness. Running is something that a lot of people take for granted because they have been recreational runners. They have the specific fitness in their legs to be able to run. (oh I have just noted you said this in your first post, guess we are really on the same side) It is remarkable to me that you ran a 4:04 marathon on 20 miles a month training when I trained for an open marathon last year averaging better than 70k a month and only managed a 4:18 (don't feel bad for me, I just started running back then and I am going to break that b*tch this year, lol). To the OP, dude, run as much as you can while sticking to the rest of the plan. Kick some butt! |
| 2011-04-02 7:47 AM in reply to: #3424715 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2011-04-02 10:17 AM in reply to: #3424715 |
| Elite 3658 Roswell, GA | Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? I wonder how much of that 4:04 marathon time was due to your last 3-4 years of solid endurance training? I've read that the number of years you have been going long has a big impact on race day performance. |
| 2011-04-02 10:24 AM in reply to: #3426466 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2011-04-02 2:26 PM in reply to: #3425297 |
| Member 19 Las Vegas | Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? Baowolf, You are correct. It is 30 July. Not sure what I was thinking. Your plan of doing the HIM bridge to IM sounds good. I'll look at that and see what it has. Everyone's comments on running no more than about 2:30-50 sounds ideal. I keep thinking if I run 20 miles it is going to be hard to recover right away to do a long bike ride. I've been taking many ice baths to help save my joints. I'm 214lbs so my legs take a beating if I run too many long runs. Thanks to everyone for the advice! My going in gameplan is too get well trained on the bike to shoot for about a 6:30 split and then on the run I'm going to walk through every water station for 1'. I've been trying this on some of my long runs and I've noticed I don't lose as much time as I thought I would and my legs feel stronger through out. Thanks to all again! Rex
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| 2011-04-02 3:01 PM in reply to: #3425963 |
| Member 19 Las Vegas | Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? Mike, Thank you for telling me the assumptions behing the BT program. I really think the program is great I just wasn't sure if I was missing something. BT is a great website for new people like me that have so many questions but so few friends that do Tri's or have much tri experience. So your words as well as everyone elses are much appreciated and taken seriously. I think what you wrote is right on inregards to marathon vs IM tng. I need to refocus my efforts. My focus is going to switch from the run to the bike now. I have always done well on the bike during the few Tri's I've done but because I push so hard on the bike my run always suffers. So maybe instead of trying to focus on improving my run by running more, maybe I just need to get into better shape on the bike. I completed the Silverman HIM in 6:03 and my bike split was 3:08 but when I got to the run it fell apart at the end. Mostly due to my nutrition but I was also gassed coming off the bike because I was pushing so hard. (The elevation at Silverman was eye opening for my first HIM.)My marathon pace is about 3:50 but I'm hoping my run split on my first IM will be around 4:30-5:00. Not fast, I know. I'm going to do your run-walk method. I generally will run without walking now but when I'm doing my long run's I'm training myself to run for 10' and then walk 1'. So hopefully I can just walk through the water stations. Thanks again for the support and I think I'm going to look at the bridge from HIM to IM because of where my baseline currently is. Or should I just do the one which was created by the program and this will be a chance for my body to recover? Cheers.
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| 2011-04-02 8:47 PM in reply to: #3426336 |
| Champion 5312 Calgary | Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? Fred Doucette - 2011-04-02 6:47 AM Darren, here is the full disclosure of my 2009 IMLP 'build' I posted this in my mentor group as well, as we are discussing it. I really believe you do need run fitness to run a good IM marathon, but that is not the key factor. The key is bike/swim fitness/pacing.
I got injured in late January. I raced an olympic in May, Eagleman in June and IMLP July 26th?. Again the July includes the race, so it was really a 75 mile month. Longest run was the Eagleman 13.1. Next longest I believe was about 9 miles. I was hurting too much to do more. The IM marathon was ridiculously painful. I was under-trained and the 2nd half I contemplated quitting constantly. Funny thing is that after it all it was probably my most satisfying moment in triathon. I didn't under-train because I was lazy or to see if I could get away with it. I did it because I wasn't able to run. I would not recommend this approach, but the point of all of this was to prove that you can run 'decent' despite poor run training if you swim and bike fitness are excellent, which mine was. Other disclosures**** I'm a pretty decent runner and had a good base before 2009. Again, what I think this shows is that on very low miles you can run a reasonable IM marathon with good bike and swim fitness/pacing. 4:04 is not really an IM mary time that I would be happy with in a non-injury year, but I was sure pleased with it in 2009! Right. Okay. I mean, I have only one done one IM, I did it after having no stand alone marathon, 2 HM and one 50k ultra (7 hours on a flat course). I read, don't worry about the run, worry about the bike. I biked lots. When it came to the IM I did okay on the bike, felt good for the first 13 miles on the run and then, well, I felt good, I mean I had the cardio to do the run I just didn't have the legs, because of completly no run fitness (went from 10k (64 min 10k) to IM in 22 months). Someone posted in the other run thread here about lots of people ignoring base training, which I think was basically my experience, although not really ignoring it as I only had so much time to train. So, I guess that has nothing to do with how long a long run in an IM plan has to be, now that I think about it. But as I typed it, I will now post it. |
| 2011-04-03 4:44 AM in reply to: #3424715 |
| Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? My longest run for B2B full last year was 18 miles. I ran that a few times. I also beat my planned time by an hour. I was really happily surprised to run as much of the run as I did and had as much energy during the run as I did. I have all intention of making a 2:30-2:45 my longest runs again this year for IMFL. I'll just do quite a few of them. Somewhere near 25 MPW seems to be a magic number for me and it's not how long the longest run is. |
| 2011-04-03 5:54 AM in reply to: #3427029 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2011-04-04 10:28 AM in reply to: #3424715 |
| Master 3546 Millersville, MD | Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? This has been a great discussion! Just to drive home one point that is lurking in the shadows of some other posts, for those who limited your long runs to 2.5 hours but then felt you didn't have the necessary run fitness on race day, I suggest to you that the best way to increase that fitness while still maintaining a balanced SBR training regimen would NOT have been to extend your long run. It would have been to run more volume during your other runs... or even better by adding additional runs to your plan. You could play with intensity to increase your run training load too, but imho both recovery and injury risk go up when doing that. Extending that 15 miler to a 20 miler would (assuming you didn't get injured) increase run fitness. But adding (building to over a few weeks) 10 extra run miles spread through the week (let's just say an easy 6 mile run after a swim one day, and then extending two of your medium distance runs by 2 miles) would do far more for your run fitness, and would have a fraction of the recovery cost (meaning you could train the day after the 15 miler far better than you could the day after the 20 miler). Edited by JoshKaptur 2011-04-04 10:34 AM |
| 2011-04-04 10:45 AM in reply to: #3425319 |
| Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? running2far - 2011-04-01 12:06 PM Another element not often discussed is when you start the marathon. An athlete starting their marathon at 6:30 on the clock (1hr swim + 5:30 bike as an example) will be much more prepared to run the entire marathon (assuming that 5:30 was paced correctly of course) than an athlete starting their marathon several hours later. The data suggests if you're coming off the bike after a 6:45+ bike split you're going to be walking regardless of run training.
Does the 6:45+ bike split include the swim as you noted in the first bolded part? |
| 2011-04-04 12:03 PM in reply to: #3424715 |
| Champion 19812 MA | Subject: RE: First IM tng plan and longest run is 16 miles???? I'm slow in IMs and get out on the run in the 8:45-10:30 range depending on the course. First IM I did 3 runs a week, with long run huge percentage of my run volume...I did 18-20 mile runs. In hindsight they gave me false confidence and really beat me up so I wasn't able to do the rest of my training as well. I had a high level of fatigue which changed the way my coach tapered me and I think I actually lost fitness during the taper. Second IM, I ran 4x sometimes 5x a week. I did a bunch of 14-16 mile runs, 1 18 mile run and a day with a 14 and 4 mile run. My overall run volume was higher and my body handled the run training including the long runs better. I worked with a different coach and did a 16 mile long run 10 days before the race and felt great next day. Biggest week I did 40 miles in my run. On race day, I was sick on the bike, threw up for ~ 4 hours, so was way down on calories and fluid, but went on to have my best IM run and ran last 3 miles fastest of the whole day. I wonder if I had not gotten sick on the bike how my run time might have turned out. Third IM, I was running 5x a week until I got Lymes and a knee injury and surgery. I did a HIM prior to getting injured/sick and had the best HIM run I've ever done....very even pace with a slight negative split. After being injured my running suffered greatly and still I'm not 100%. I trained the best I could with the injury and issues I had. I was able to execute my run/walk plan and not mentally cave in which I think bodes well for future IMs if I can get more consistent run training in. If I was healthy and able to train without limitations, I would do like Josh suggested more frequency and mileage and not worry about my long run distance. My plan for #3 and this year's 2 IMs was to max out long runs at 2.5 hours. I start to see significant improvements in my running when I get to or above 25 mpw. |
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