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FLandis USADA trial to start
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Yes (guilty as sin)17 Votes - [21.52%]
No (innocent victim of circumstances outside of his control)62 Votes - [78.48%]

2006-12-12 8:07 AM

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Subject: FLandis USADA trial to start

The roosters are finally coming home to roost and, hopefully, we will finally find out the outcome of the 2006 Tour de France when the USADA doping trial concludes. As the trial starts sometime next month, Floyd Landis has been quoted as saying that he would quit the sport if he received a long enough suspension in his doping trial.

"I wasn't the highest-paid cyclist and it's looking like this might cost me $500,000. I think the authorities know I'll run out of money. They've said they'll appeal if they lose the hearing and that might take another year.

"If I'm banned for four years and stripped of my title and prize-money, I'll never race again. My desire for it would have been obliterated."

The American was verbally stripped of his title by Tour organisers and denied his prize money after testing positive for excessive testosterone levels during his astonishing stage 17 come from behind victory.

[ http://www.eurosport.com/cycling/pro-tour/2006-2007/sport_sto1029664.shtml]

While the trial may get complicated, the question is simple: did he take synthetic-T prior to his epic Stage 17 comeback or not? If no, then how did the synthetic-T show up in his test results? If yes, then how does one days worth of synthetic-T make a difference (thought that it had to be a series of 'treatments' in order to garner the beneficial effects - and previous tests did not show abnormal results).



2006-12-12 8:28 AM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start
brian - 2006-12-12 8:07 AM

The roosters are finally coming home to roost and, hopefully, we will finally find out the outcome of the 1996 Tour de France when the USADA doping trial concludes. As the trial starts sometime next month, Floyd Landis has been quoted as saying that he would quit the sport if he received a long enough suspension in his doping trial.

 I know who won the 1996 Tour de France, it was Bjarne Riis. Do I get a prize?

2006-12-12 8:31 AM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start
this is one touchy subject I hope he didnt do it
2006-12-12 8:40 AM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start
For those vote yes, I hope that you're doing that based on a strong hunch because the current publicly released information is certainly not conclusive and brings up more questions than answers.
2006-12-12 9:01 AM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start
After listening to both the orignal and new on line presenations of the defense, if what the Landis team is reporting is accurate. Not only did he get hosed, but I wouldn't want the Lab doing any work on me....let alone determining the future outcome of any atheletic event.
2006-12-12 9:07 AM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start
From what I understand no proof of synthetic t was ever released. All we ever heard about that was a leak that isn't always accurate. Also from what I understand his t levels were NORMAL. Another chemical in his body was low so the RATIO of that to T was off, which was against regs.

Again just what I've gathered from what I've read.

Edit:
Also, why is it that the doping agency can screw athletes and if they're wrong, no action can be taken. They had it out for Lance, and after finally dropping it years later all they could do is release a very small and under-published press release. The doping agency broke a ton of their own rules, including releasing any information before a B test was sampled. Doesn't Landis have the right to have his own lab test the samples? Doesn't he have the right to sue these idiots for ruining his racing career and his life if they're proven wrong AND negligent? Sad..very sad.

Edited by bradword 2006-12-12 9:11 AM


2006-12-12 9:08 AM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start

I know nothing about the science of all this.  I do know that (just like all of us) I would love for him to be found innocent.  It is such a fabulous story but one that rings of being too good to be true.  I do however not discount the possibility that there is more going on here.  The French it seems hated the fact that Lance dominated this sport for so many years and just when they get rid of him, another American comes along and wins.  Yes this sounds conspiracy based but based on what Lance went through and as hard as they tried to "catch" him cheating, it seems that they might have tried even harder in this case.

2006-12-12 9:13 AM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start
triingforsept07 - 2006-12-12 8:08 AM

I know nothing about the science of all this. I do know that (just like all of us) I would love for him to be found innocent. It is such a fabulous story but one that rings of being too good to be true. I do however not discount the possibility that there is more going on here. The French it seems hated the fact that Lance dominated this sport for so many years and just when they get rid of him, another American comes along and wins. Yes this sounds conspiracy based but based on what Lance went through and as hard as they tried to "catch" him cheating, it seems that they might have tried even harder in this case.



Almost as unbelievable as a cancer surviver winning it 7 times in a row ;-)
2006-12-12 9:20 AM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start
I base my suspicions on the assumption that there is no conspiracy in the lab. I think Armstrong's belief that the lab and the French had it in for him was self-serving. Claiming a conspiracy is a handy tool for those who are predisposed to believe in the innocence of somebody or the guilt of somebody else. The idea that the French have an ongoing conspiracy against American cyclists is ridiculous. If they did, I don't think that Armstrong would have been able to win 7 tours.

I don't know if Landis is guilty. I do know that that his epic stage was called "impossible" by Bob Roll. I know that cycling is rotten with doping. I know that a clean athlete winning in a sport where many athletes are not clean seems counter-intuitive. I know that some people love their heroes and cannot allow themselves to imagine that they may be idolizing somebody who is dirty.

Edited by Opus 2006-12-12 9:21 AM
2006-12-12 9:25 AM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start
Didn't he test after this and come up clean, If I remember correctly, it takes a while for the stuff to leave your system
2006-12-12 9:26 AM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start

What about the facts regarding the actual test and circumstances surrounding it?  Lots of circumstantial evidence in your post but nothing that speaks to the actual event in question.

Opus - 2006-12-12 9:20 AM I base my suspicions on the assumption that there is no conspiracy in the lab. I think Armstrong's belief that the lab and the French had it in for him was self-serving. Claiming a conspiracy is a handy tool for those who are predisposed to believe in the innocence of somebody or the guilt of somebody else. The idea that the French have an ongoing conspiracy against American cyclists is ridiculous. If they did, I don't think that Armstrong would have been able to win 7 tours. I don't know if Landis is guilty. I do know that that his epic stage was called "impossible" by Bob Roll. I know that cycling is rotten with doping. I know that a clean athlete winning in a sport where many athletes are not clean seems counter-intuitive. I know that some people love their heroes and cannot allow themselves to imagine that they may be idolizing somebody who is dirty.



2006-12-12 9:28 AM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start
The biggest problem I have with the lab is the inability to produce the same result twice. They did numerous test (specifics I've sense forgotten) but the jest of the issue is the testing. As the defense put in its like saying in one test you weight 150 lbs and the next you weigh 225lbs....they couldn't product the same results more than once. I believe a postive was needed in four different measurable variables and Landis had three negatives and one positive which was even labled a lab error but the leak was still made to the press he was positive.

I encourage anyone to go and listen/download the presentation - it last over an hr if I remember.

The media hase focused the defense on lableing and sample errors...which is part of the defense but I have a feeling the Landis team is going after the results of the test and not trying to slide in the back door by sample error codes (which is still an issue).

2006-12-12 9:29 AM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start
"Didn't he test after this and come up clean, If I remember correctly, it takes a while for the stuff to leave your system"

All other tests and blood work was clean....I can't remember the actual number but he was tested numerous times during the tour including before the start and after the victory...all clean.
2006-12-12 9:32 AM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start
The most compelling information for me was something provided by some doctors after the news broke, saying that he tested clean before stage 17 and then again after stage 17 and even if he had taken this substance or used it in some way, he would have had to be taking if for a long period of time to register the amount that the test revealed.

Something is fishy here...I believe him and I believe in the sport. I just hope he gets a fair shake.
2006-12-12 9:51 AM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start

Who can say with any amount of certainty that Floyd is innocent or guilty at this point.  We, the public, are not privy to all the evidence or counter-arguments. 

I agree with Opus that any conspiracy theroy is ludicrous.  The idea that the French have an ongoing conspiracy against American cyclists is ridiculous in light of the fact that Armstrong has won 7 Tours.  If anything, I believe that there is an ongoing conspiracy by the cycling world against Canada because we have not had one Canadian win the Tour, not even one stage!?! 

2006-12-12 10:45 AM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start
Landis isnt any guiltier than the rest of the guys out there.  There seems to be big problems following procedures at this lab so hopefully the test results will be tossed.  I know one thing, if I had to get lab work that would not be the place that I would do it.


2006-12-12 10:47 AM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start
No matter what the verdict is, his career has been stomped on.

IMO, the real question is did he knowingly take whatever drugs in question. Only he knows the answer to this.

I wonder how easy it would be to put drugs in someone's food or drink during the Tour?

Can the drugs in question be administered orally or do they have to be injected?

Maybe someone was sick of Americans winning the Tour. I figure if someone can sneak one of the rarest elements on earth into England and kill that spy, then someone could have easily drugged Landis.

I don't mean to be all "Conspiracy Theory" but you never know.
2006-12-12 11:53 AM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start
^^^ good point
2006-12-12 11:58 AM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start
Lance should pitch in for his defense.
Just my $.02!
2006-12-12 12:06 PM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start

While the trial may get complicated, the question is simple: did he take synthetic-T prior to his epic Stage 17 comeback or not? If no, then how did the synthetic-T show up in his test results? If yes, then how does one days worth of synthetic-T make a difference (thought that it had to be a series of 'treatments' in order to garner the beneficial effects - and previous tests did not show abnormal results).

I don't know all the facts, so I have no vote as to guilty or not.

But either he didn't take a banned substance and his name should be cleared, or he took one and should be penalized.  There's no need to debate what "difference" the substance may or may not have actually been to the race outcome.  He's either right or wrong.

Unfortunately, from what facts I have seen, only Floyd (and/or someone(s) close to Floyd) probably knows the true answer.  So everyone else will just have to live with the trial's decision.

 

2006-12-12 12:29 PM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start
JohnnyKay - 2006-12-12 1:06 PM
But either he didn't take a banned substance and his name should be cleared, or he took one and should be penalized.  There's no need to debate what "difference" the substance may or may not have actually been to the race outcome.  He's either right or wrong.

The question of whether the synthetic-T has a beneficial impact has a bearing on whether it has taken willingly or "roostered" into his drink (as some people believe) ... the point being, if there is no beneficial effect for one day exposure, then why would he willingly take it?

Machiavelo - 2006-12-12 10:51 AM

Who can say with any amount of certainty that Floyd is innocent or guilty at this point.  We, the public, are not privy to all the evidence or counter-arguments. 

And that is why the trial is going to be so interesting.  Hopefully it will be open to the press and we can learn the points and counterpoints.

As seen from the problems with the test results that were leaked at ITU, the drug testing process is not exactly itself clean. (For more background, see: http://slowtwitch.com/headings/ironman.html)



2006-12-12 12:38 PM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start

brian - 2006-12-12 12:29 PM ... the point being, if there is no beneficial effect for one day exposure, then why would he willingly take it?

I certainly don't know.  Nor do I care.  Either he took a banned substance or he didn't.  Black or white.  No forgiveness if what he took happened to be ineffective at the time.  If he was "slipped a mickey", that would be different.

But, like I said, even after the trial it's not likely we'll know the answer to this so we'll just have to live with the decision.

2006-12-12 1:25 PM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start

He's not defending his use because of its lack of effects.  He's calling into question the idea that he would take something that anybody knowledgable in the slightest about those drugs would never recommend. 

In the end, you're right.  It comes down to whether or not he used them.  Given the suspicious testing results, I don't see how you can use those results alone in coming to a personal conclusion about what happened.  If it were conclusive or without serious questions, nobody would be debating this.

Intent is certainly circumstantial, but it's useful when combined with objective data (the lab results).

JohnnyKay - 2006-12-12 12:38 PM

brian - 2006-12-12 12:29 PM ... the point being, if there is no beneficial effect for one day exposure, then why would he willingly take it?

I certainly don't know.  Nor do I care.  Either he took a banned substance or he didn't.  Black or white.  No forgiveness if what he took happened to be ineffective at the time.  If he was "slipped a mickey", that would be different.

But, like I said, even after the trial it's not likely we'll know the answer to this so we'll just have to live with the decision.

2006-12-12 1:40 PM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start
DerekL - 2006-12-12 1:25 PM

He's not defending his use because of its lack of effects.  He's calling into question the idea that he would take something that anybody knowledgable in the slightest about those drugs would never recommend.

Yes, I know.  And if I were a jury member in this case, I could see many avenues that might leave "reasonable doubt".  But we don't even have all the "facts" yet, so I wouldn't even try to weigh-in. 

The verdict will be what it is.  But either he cheated or he didn't, and the verdict won't change that.  That's my stance in the "debate". 

I do hope the verdict is accurate but, of course, we probably won't ever know.  So this debate could go on endlessly. 

2006-12-12 2:02 PM
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Subject: RE: FLandis USADA trial to start
I just think this is a sad situation.
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