SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN (Page 105)
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Fred D I had an idea I would start with something very reachable for the first 20'. I aimed for a HR below 150 and power around 260. I ended up getting more to 270 watts and then just kept going at it. Uphill rollers were over 300 and downhills more in the lower 200s but I made a conscious effort to quickly pedal harder on the downhills and ended up getting closer to the 270 goal after the first creating so to speak of the hill. I would say I had numbers in mind, but I knew that keeping the HR closer to 150 was more sustainable so it was my primary guide.... Nice going Fred! I've been using HR as a strong guide as well as I pick things back up. Power helps to start things off, then HR & RPE make sure I'm not doing something nuts as I sustain it. |
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![]() Originally posted by Fred D The only time I'm willing to do this is during a 40k TT or duing the bike portion of an Oly. Otherwise it's just not safe to do so outdoors on a training ride, and I'm pretty sure I'm not doing it on a trainer. But much of my winter/spring cycling will be focusing on the 40k, so it's definitely something I will be trying to work on.Originally posted by brigby1
Nice going Fred! I've been using HR as a strong guide as well as I pick things back up. Power helps to start things off, then HR & RPE make sure I'm not doing something nuts as I sustain it. Agree. The mistake I made with power in the past was a belief that it trumped RPE and HR. Power is a neat metric that has some plusses over the other two, but it has limits. I am challenging the SBRers here to see if they can try a full on 1 hour effort. THIS IS NOT to brag power numbers (to be honest I was not set up 2 hrs into a ride, and after working all night to achieve maximum power numbers).... but to challenge us all to see if you can actually do the exercise. It's much more of an exercise in pacing and determination than anything else. Anyone else in? |
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![]() Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by Fred D The only time I'm willing to do this is during a 40k TT or duing the bike portion of an Oly. Otherwise it's just not safe to do so outdoors on a training ride, and I'm pretty sure I'm not doing it on a trainer. But much of my winter/spring cycling will be focusing on the 40k, so it's definitely something I will be trying to work on. Originally posted by brigby1
Nice going Fred! I've been using HR as a strong guide as well as I pick things back up. Power helps to start things off, then HR & RPE make sure I'm not doing something nuts as I sustain it. Agree. The mistake I made with power in the past was a belief that it trumped RPE and HR. Power is a neat metric that has some plusses over the other two, but it has limits. I am challenging the SBRers here to see if they can try a full on 1 hour effort. THIS IS NOT to brag power numbers (to be honest I was not set up 2 hrs into a ride, and after working all night to achieve maximum power numbers).... but to challenge us all to see if you can actually do the exercise. It's much more of an exercise in pacing and determination than anything else. Anyone else in? This. I have a 40K TT series near me that I may do this off season, and could do it there. And, not to take anything away fred, but doesn't the hill skew the numbers? I can hold 250 for a half hour climbing without too much destruction, but on the flats it takes much more work. |
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![]() This user's post has been ignored. Edited by Fred D 2013-10-15 3:46 PM |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Chris, not really especially on rollers. He is quoting avg watts and not normalized power which would be the most skewed on hard roller efforts. Should be pretty close. I see what you are saying but it is mental and what you can do for an hour is pretty much the same. On shorter climbs it just makes it much easier to put out the watts since gravity forces your hand. On rollers it can actually be harder for me than on the flats because you are shifting as you crest and trying to pick it up on the downhills etc so it is harder to get in the rythm and just turn over that big gear nice and steady. Regarding NP, as an example, just yesterday on a regular ride my NP was 50 watts higher than my AW since I attacked in a couple of places on a ride that was otherwise pretty steady and only about an hour long. I don't really trust when people use NP over rolling terrain. Fred, I may do this again at somepoint but I argue that my February 1hr on the trainer is valid for a full year so maybe in a few months? |
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Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Fred D I am challenging the SBRers here to see if they can try a full on 1 hour effort. THIS IS NOT to brag power numbers (to be honest I was not set up 2 hrs into a ride, and after working all night to achieve maximum power numbers).... but to challenge us all to see if you can actually do the exercise. It's much more of an exercise in pacing and determination than anything else. Anyone else in? I did 37 minutes of basically as hard as I could in my last sprint -- NP was 2W higher than my then-FTP. I was pretty proud of my effort....but realized it should probably have been higher, given that it wasn't a full 60 minutes. I think I may be one of the rare ones whose power output is higher on the trainer than outdoors. Though it may be as Chris says in that I just don't feel it'd be safe for me to really crush myself on the street, where I'm not being artificially held upright! Would love to find a 40k TT locally, but they seem few and far between (or well-kept secrets). Maybe if/when I move back to CA, I can get in on the one Chris mentioned. |
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![]() Originally posted by Fred D Originally posted by ChrisM . I think the 'no sleep since Sunday night' probably skewed the numbers a bit too. I see your point though..... I'm not planning on using these numbers for pacing a future event.... Just wanted to see if I could do the effort.... The hill took away the bail out option for me. Was never really out of control on effort, so not anymore unsafe than riding on the roads usually is for me.... Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by Fred D The only time I'm willing to do this is during a 40k TT or duing the bike portion of an Oly. Otherwise it's just not safe to do so outdoors on a training ride, and I'm pretty sure I'm not doing it on a trainer. But much of my winter/spring cycling will be focusing on the 40k, so it's definitely something I will be trying to work on. Originally posted by brigby1
Nice going Fred! I've been using HR as a strong guide as well as I pick things back up. Power helps to start things off, then HR & RPE make sure I'm not doing something nuts as I sustain it. Agree. The mistake I made with power in the past was a belief that it trumped RPE and HR. Power is a neat metric that has some plusses over the other two, but it has limits. I am challenging the SBRers here to see if they can try a full on 1 hour effort. THIS IS NOT to brag power numbers (to be honest I was not set up 2 hrs into a ride, and after working all night to achieve maximum power numbers).... but to challenge us all to see if you can actually do the exercise. It's much more of an exercise in pacing and determination than anything else. Anyone else in? This. I have a 40K TT series near me that I may do this off season, and could do it there. And, not to take anything away fred, but doesn't the hill skew the numbers? I can hold 250 for a half hour climbing without too much destruction, but on the flats it takes much more work. I got it, it wasn't really a test, other than "how hard can I go for an hour" that makes sense, and frankly doing that up a hill is not that much easier than doing it flat if you are going hard as you can. |
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![]() Originally posted by acumenjay Chris, not really especially on rollers. He is quoting avg watts and not normalized power which would be the most skewed on hard roller efforts. Should be pretty close. I see what you are saying but it is mental and what you can do for an hour is pretty much the same. On shorter climbs it just makes it much easier to put out the watts since gravity forces your hand. On rollers it can actually be harder for me than on the flats because you are shifting as you crest and trying to pick it up on the downhills etc so it is harder to get in the rythm and just turn over that big gear nice and steady. Regarding NP, as an example, just yesterday on a regular ride my NP was 50 watts higher than my AW since I attacked in a couple of places on a ride that was otherwise pretty steady and only about an hour long. I don't really trust when people use NP over rolling terrain. Fred, I may do this again at somepoint but I argue that my February 1hr on the trainer is valid for a full year so maybe in a few months? I didn't mean the rollers, but the :20 climb. I was shocked when I fisrt got power how easy it was to get a very high number pretty quickly on a climb (and how low the numbers were relatively). I agree that rollers are harder to hold power, that has always been my problem and the reason why my VI often exceeds 1.10 |
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![]() ! Would love to find a 40k TT locally, but they seem few and far between (or well-kept secrets). Maybe if/when I move back to CA, I can get in on the one Chris mentioned. http://www.uncletren.com/Piru.html Monthly 20K and 40K races. I've always been too afraid to show up to these. But may try to work these in this season to track progress. And then I found this... lots more TTs http://www.socalttseries.com/p/faq.html Edited by ChrisM 2013-10-15 4:51 PM |
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![]() Originally posted by Fred D On second thought, never mind. I have very quiet roads, and what I can do on them is probably different than others can due to traffic etc. challenge retracted.... If you've got a 20 or 40K course you can ride, perhaps others (like me) have organized events, we can still have a challenge, maybe not for power, but like the ST 40K challenge. It would get me motivated to actually do one. |
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Elite![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I'd love to do a 40K TT sometime and I have the roads to do it safely (as safe as any other riding I do anyway). I'm not sure I could muster the motivation to do it on my own though. I think there is an organized event that I could get to in a couple of hours of driving - maybe next summer. |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Fred D Originally posted by axteraa . Those are watts that a pro would be proud of! Sam Gyde's bike and run data: http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/4IA7KR2ERDSQFNGGMHR3A3QKX4 http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/SVK4T4RVMCLM57CWYQ5MLJQHC4 Only 278w for 4.5 hours. meh. That just sounds like one of Ben's recovery rides.... |
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![]() This user's post has been ignored. Edited by Fred D 2013-10-15 6:10 PM |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Fred D On second thought, never mind. I have very quiet roads, and what I can do on them is probably different than others can due to traffic etc. challenge retracted.... Hey Fred - I actually have an explicit agreement with my coach that I will ignore all internet training challenges and group goal setting if you can believe that. That said I am thinking about doing a ride this weekend that I don't get to do very often, it has a lot of great climbing and smack in the middle of it is a 9 mile sustained climb that usually takes me right at an hour to summit. It is about 2500' and has a 2 mile stretch in the middle that is a steady 10% grade. I would be kinda interested to attack it and see where I am mentally. I am coming to the end of my "just have fun" training block so I maybe it would be OK. I am not in my peak physical shape, but like you said the mental aspect of it is really the interesting part. Both holding back and building through the beginning AND then not cracking before the end. I really should be working on my running though..... |
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![]() This user's post has been ignored. Edited by Fred D 2013-10-15 6:34 PM |
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![]() Originally posted by Fred D Good stuff Rusty. Yes the mental game is a great discussion. I've done a few 20' indoor trainer tests and in full disclosure I bailed on at least 50% of them. I bailed because I told myself 'I wasn't feeling it', or it just hurt too much. Do you think most of my bailouts occurred in the first 5', the second 5', the 3rd or the 4th? Hint, they all happened in the same quarter.... IMO, it's easier to bail on an indoor ride (for me). Although I've considered it, I have yet to bail on a 20' test, though I've wanted to many times. (I'm gonna guess first 5). One of my issues is that I train differently indoors than out. I ride ERG most of the time indoors, and obviously outdoor is ... not ERG, whatever the name for that is. But 20' tests are not in Erg mode. I have done sustained balls out efforts for about 20-25 minutes outdoors, on a climb when I first got the PM and wanted to see what an all out effort was on a local 5 mile climb. I got a PR on the climb was was utterly shattered at the top The next week went back and dialed back 20-30 watts, took me 1:30 longer and I felt pretty good at the top. It was a good lesson Edited by ChrisM 2013-10-15 6:38 PM |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Fred D 2. Do people include zero's in their data or not when doing their average power? Long way from a Guru, but it depends. Usually no, except maybe when in the mountains where you have long sustained climbs followed by long descents. But even then I hit laps at the bottom and top of each climb, so it makes it easy to isolate the work. And that is really only useful if for some reason you need an unskewed number while you are actually riding. For example, I watch 3 second power and average power - I find it useful to watch how average power trends over time in my experience rides with long climbs and descents tend to really skew the power number in a way that does not really accurately reflect the work and recovery load. But in the end as you know these are just numbers, and as long as you are consistent in how they are collected and you pay attention to what they mean for you then it doesn't really matter what they are. I have never really thought about it (and you didn't ask), but for post-ride analysis purposes in Training Peaks it might actually be better to record data without zeros (at least in some instances), because a) it is easy to add them back in, but I don't think there is a way to take them out and b) It appears that TP calculates VI, TSS, etc using the zeros no matter what. |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Fred D Good stuff Rusty. Yes the mental game is a great discussion. I've done a few 20' indoor trainer tests and in full disclosure I bailed on at least 50% of them. I bailed because I told myself 'I wasn't feeling it', or it just hurt too much. Do you think most of my bailouts occurred in the first 5', the second 5', the 3rd or the 4th? Hint, they all happened in the same quarter.... I am going to guess in the second quarter based simply on my own demonstrated lack of fortitude. |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by Fred D Good stuff Rusty. Yes the mental game is a great discussion. I've done a few 20' indoor trainer tests and in full disclosure I bailed on at least 50% of them. I bailed because I told myself 'I wasn't feeling it', or it just hurt too much. Do you think most of my bailouts occurred in the first 5', the second 5', the 3rd or the 4th? Hint, they all happened in the same quarter.... Can't decide between 1st or 2nd. I don't know on your CP per GC question, but yes on the AP. It's not nearly the same thing. My AP can go noticeably over NP if I drop them. Including stops in the time & average is another, though related, question. |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Originally posted by TankBoy Originally posted by Fred D Originally posted by axteraa . Those are watts that a pro would be proud of! Sam Gyde's bike and run data: http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/4IA7KR2ERDSQFNGGMHR3A3QKX4 http://www.trainingpeaks.com/av/SVK4T4RVMCLM57CWYQ5MLJQHC4 Only 278w for 4.5 hours. meh. That just sounds like one of Ben's recovery rides.... I do have one where the NP wasn't far off from his at that time point, but AP was noticeably below as there were a number of rather sharp ups and downs. Although going more than 100 ft without the bike at the end would have been a considerable challenge (~5:40 total ride). Edited by brigby1 2013-10-15 6:51 PM |
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