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 2009-06-22 2:33 PM in reply to: #2234677 |
Champion  9407    Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia |  Subject: RE: How much faster?PennState - 2009-06-22 4:31 PM I believe the loss of air is most pronounced with C02 and the latex tubes. I run butyl tubes, becauise I just don't believe the latex arguement. I've never run latex tubes, but have heard the complaints on the other board about air loss. But essentially yes I was mainly joking. I'd give them a try; you might be surprised  Shane |
| 2009-06-22 2:35 PM in reply to: #2234580 |
Pro 4277 Parker, CO | Subject: RE: How much faster? the bear - 2009-06-22 1:10 PM rayd - 2009-06-22 1:58 PM I can't tell you how much faster it would make a rider because I don't have race wheels or aero helment. I ride my road bike with clip-on aerobars and pretty standard Mavic wheels. It may make people somewhat faster though or else why would they invest the money? Personally, it would not be worth it to me. I'm an older guy and can usually avg 21 - 23 in a sprint...that's passing guys that may have race wheels and an aero helmet. I get some satisfaction that I have not invested several grand in my bike and equipment and can still hang or pass many guys that have. The issue isn't that you can pass guys who do, but, of course, will you be faster with than without. I pass people with race wheels, as well as those younger than me, those lighter than me, and those who train more than me. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be faster if I were younger, lighter, and trained more. of course someone will be faster with than without! my point is I would rather spend the time training than buying more equipment...the return just isn't worth it to me to move up maybe one or to AG spots. nothing wrong if someone wants to invest the money...lots do! I'm just not one of them. |
 2009-06-22 2:36 PM in reply to: #2234684 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-06-22 2:37 PM in reply to: #2234229 |
| Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: How much faster? Just run tubulars and you'd have the best of the bunch to begin with .........  |
| 2009-06-22 2:38 PM in reply to: #2234702 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-06-22 2:41 PM in reply to: #2234697 |
| Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: How much faster? PennState - 2009-06-22 4:36 PM Call me a skeptic It reminds me of an old Sesame street episode... Ernie is holding a banana to his ear. Bert asks him "why are you doing that?" Ernie says " It keeps vampires away" Bert says "That's crazy" Ernie says "do you see any vampires?" I prefer rocks that keep tigers at bay Shane |
| 2009-06-22 2:41 PM in reply to: #2234710 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: How much faster? PennState - 2009-06-22 3:38 PM Daremo - 2009-06-22 3:37 PM Just run tubulars and you'd have the best of the bunch to begin with ......... Yeah, but what about the Crr? Shockingly (or not so), the best tubulars use latex. |
| 2009-06-22 2:44 PM in reply to: #2234710 |
| Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: How much faster? PennState - 2009-06-22 3:38 PM Yeah, but what about the Crr? Once Al started gluing them right, all of the sudden they started putting up the numbers that all the old school cyclists have been saying for years ........ ie, tubulars are faster!!  |
| 2009-06-22 2:44 PM in reply to: #2234229 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-06-22 2:45 PM in reply to: #2234720 |
Elite 4564 Boise | Subject: RE: How much faster? gsmacleod - 2009-06-22 1:41 PM PennState - 2009-06-22 4:36 PM Call me a skeptic It reminds me of an old Sesame street episode... Ernie is holding a banana to his ear. Bert asks him "why are you doing that?" Ernie says " It keeps vampires away" Bert says "That's crazy" Ernie says "do you see any vampires?" I prefer rocks that keep tigers at bay Shane I'd like to purchase your tiger rock |
| 2009-06-22 2:47 PM in reply to: #2234229 |
| Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: How much faster? Of course the engine it IS the most important thing to work on; at races and in training I always get to see a lot of Ferrari type looking bikes (IOW super expensive, fast, aero looking) with the engine of a 1980 Toyota tercel That been said, if you can afford aero goods there is no reason not to use those in addition to working on the engine as they will make you faster. You can save some energy (riding with less power) by going at the same speed or going faster at the same power. how much? It will depend on the investment which of course that's another thing to conider. Is it a good ROI? well, that depends for each person I guess. You can get a great aero bang for your back without spending too much $$$, the key things IMO are: 1) Bike fit; your body acounts for up to 60-70% of the total drag when riding. Having a proper bike fit will allow you ride comfortable, generate power and slice through the air. 2) Low Crr Tires; something like Bontrager xxx lite, TT wings or Michellin Pro with latex tubes can offer great time savings. Tubies also work but the Crr can be great or bad depending on the glue and to maximize low Crr you pretty much have to glue them very well which can create a problem if you flat on a race. Pick whatever you prefer. 3) Aero wheels; you can get good deals on ebay/craig list and you don't need much. A 60+ mm front (or tri spoke) plus a deep rim back with an aero cover or a regular wheel w/ disc cover. This combo should suit most racing needs. 4) Aero Helmet; having a helmet that complements your bike fit can help diminish your CdA even more. Work on the engine, work on the things above (if you can/want) and you should be faster... |
| 2009-06-22 2:47 PM in reply to: #2234693 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: How much faster? rayd - 2009-06-22 2:35 PM the bear - 2009-06-22 1:10 PM rayd - 2009-06-22 1:58 PM I can't tell you how much faster it would make a rider because I don't have race wheels or aero helment. I ride my road bike with clip-on aerobars and pretty standard Mavic wheels. It may make people somewhat faster though or else why would they invest the money? Personally, it would not be worth it to me. I'm an older guy and can usually avg 21 - 23 in a sprint...that's passing guys that may have race wheels and an aero helmet. I get some satisfaction that I have not invested several grand in my bike and equipment and can still hang or pass many guys that have. The issue isn't that you can pass guys who do, but, of course, will you be faster with than without. I pass people with race wheels, as well as those younger than me, those lighter than me, and those who train more than me. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be faster if I were younger, lighter, and trained more. of course someone will be faster with than without! my point is I would rather spend the time training than buying more equipment...the return just isn't worth it to me to move up maybe one or to AG spots. nothing wrong if someone wants to invest the money...lots do! I'm just not one of them. And my point is that your "satisfaction" is at best misplaced. |
| 2009-06-22 2:52 PM in reply to: #2234589 |
| Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: How much faster? PennState - 2009-06-22 2:11 PM I use bonti x lite tires with michelin latex tubes; I did a 5+ hr ride earlier this year and the next day when I pumped my tires before another ride (I do that every time I ride whether using latex or butyl) the PSI was almost the same.gsmacleod - 2009-06-22 3:09 PM newleaf - 2009-06-22 4:07 PM ah. darnit. already have ProRace3s. Was hoping for a quick and dirty upgrade. Latex tubes... Shane Unless you are doing an IM and care about the amount of air that escapes |
| 2009-06-22 2:55 PM in reply to: #2234728 |
| Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: How much faster? Daremo - 2009-06-22 2:44 PM how many coats of glue was that again?PennState - 2009-06-22 3:38 PM Yeah, but what about the Crr? Once Al started gluing them right, all of the sudden they started putting up the numbers that all the old school cyclists have been saying for years ........ ie, tubulars are faster!! |
| 2009-06-22 2:57 PM in reply to: #2234728 |
| Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: How much faster? Daremo - 2009-06-22 3:44 PM PennState - 2009-06-22 3:38 PM Yeah, but what about the Crr? Once Al started gluing them right, all of the sudden they started putting up the numbers that all the old school cyclists have been saying for years ........ ie, tubulars are faster!! But then they're not faster to change in a race. And the top ones happen to be very flat prone so you may have to. The fact is that GOOD tubulars (glued VERY well) and GOOD clinchers (with latex tubes akin to the material in the good tubulars) both roll very well. You can make your own decision on which will work better for you. Can't believe this turned into this, but I'm a little surprised at you Fred since your views appear inconsistent (unless you want some slow tubulars--to "hold" air better--glued to make them even slower--for fast flat removal). |
| 2009-06-22 2:58 PM in reply to: #2234229 |
| Master 2355 Houston, TX | Subject: RE: How much faster? Try to fix swap out tubulars with the glue he used.. good luck! Having said that.. I ride tubulars. |
| 2009-06-22 3:01 PM in reply to: #2234788 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by PennState 2009-06-22 3:02 PM |
| 2009-06-22 3:03 PM in reply to: #2234693 |
| Expert 2555 Colorado Springs, Colorado | Subject: RE: How much faster? rayd - 2009-06-22 1:35 PM the bear - 2009-06-22 1:10 PM rayd - 2009-06-22 1:58 PM I can't tell you how much faster it would make a rider because I don't have race wheels or aero helment. I ride my road bike with clip-on aerobars and pretty standard Mavic wheels. It may make people somewhat faster though or else why would they invest the money? Personally, it would not be worth it to me. I'm an older guy and can usually avg 21 - 23 in a sprint...that's passing guys that may have race wheels and an aero helmet. I get some satisfaction that I have not invested several grand in my bike and equipment and can still hang or pass many guys that have. The issue isn't that you can pass guys who do, but, of course, will you be faster with than without. I pass people with race wheels, as well as those younger than me, those lighter than me, and those who train more than me. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be faster if I were younger, lighter, and trained more. of course someone will be faster with than without! my point is I would rather spend the time training than buying more equipment...the return just isn't worth it to me to move up maybe one or to AG spots. nothing wrong if someone wants to invest the money...lots do! I'm just not one of them. rayd, you and I are fairly similar in ability. The reason I have a tri-bike now is a tri club friend was getting rid of his bike for a low price. I'm not totally convinced I'm any faster. However, my road bike is so old now that getting parts is difficult. I did the 5430 sprint yesterday and I passed a bunch of people just like always, but it seemed like everyone who passed me had a disc and an aero helmet. I was also a bit sore from a 10K the day before so both my bike and run weren't as fast as they should have been. No doubt that most of the people passing me also trained much more so the fact they all seemed to have disc and aero helmets was just coincidence. It seems like a bunch of people also are using some sort of power meter. Again, no doubt it would be nice to have, but well beyond what I'm willing to pay. Speaking of bike computers, the one I have is mounted on the top of the stem and when I'm riding aero it's under my chest where I can't even see it. Where are people mounting these things where they can be easily seen when riding aero? |
| 2009-06-22 3:03 PM in reply to: #2234817 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-06-22 3:03 PM in reply to: #2234817 |
| Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: How much faster? PennState - 2009-06-22 4:01 PM Can't believe this turned into this, but I'm a little surprised at you Fred since your views appear inconsistent (unless you want some slow tubulars--to "hold" air better--glued to make them even slower--for fast flat removal). I'm tired, my mind is quite 'fuzzy' today, and I've been holding a banana in my ear for some time... thus the inconsistency You're more likely to need a rock where you live. |
| 2009-06-22 3:05 PM in reply to: #2234831 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-06-22 3:08 PM in reply to: #2234795 |
| Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: How much faster? I'm a short course guy now. So if I get a flat, my race is over, so who cares how long it takes to change them out. I'll still do it, but at that point I'm out of the race anyway for placing. When it comes to speed, you go for what makes you faster and NOT what might be faster if you should have a problem!! |
| 2009-06-22 3:13 PM in reply to: #2234743 |
| Expert 2555 Colorado Springs, Colorado | Subject: RE: How much faster? JorgeM - 2009-06-22 1:47 PM Of course the engine it IS the most important thing to work on; at races and in training I always get to see a lot of Ferrari type looking bikes (IOW super expensive, fast, aero looking) with the engine of a 1980 Toyota tercel That been said, if you can afford aero goods there is no reason not to use those in addition to working on the engine as they will make you faster. You can save some energy (riding with less power) by going at the same speed or going faster at the same power. how much? It will depend on the investment which of course that's another thing to conider. Is it a good ROI? well, that depends for each person I guess. You can get a great aero bang for your back without spending too much $$$, the key things IMO are: 1) Bike fit; your body acounts for up to 60-70% of the total drag when riding. Having a proper bike fit will allow you ride comfortable, generate power and slice through the air. 2) Low Crr Tires; something like Bontrager xxx lite, TT wings or Michellin Pro with latex tubes can offer great time savings. Tubies also work but the Crr can be great or bad depending on the glue and to maximize low Crr you pretty much have to glue them very well which can create a problem if you flat on a race. Pick whatever you prefer. 3) Aero wheels; you can get good deals on ebay/craig list and you don't need much. A 60+ mm front (or tri spoke) plus a deep rim back with an aero cover or a regular wheel w/ disc cover. This combo should suit most racing needs. 4) Aero Helmet; having a helmet that complements your bike fit can help diminish your CdA even more. Work on the engine, work on the things above (if you can/want) and you should be faster... Thanks for the tips. I've already had my bike professionally fit. The other things I have not done. So assuming I get low Crr tires, a disc cover and an aero helmet - how much faster? On my old road bike there was a huge gain by simply adding aerobars - easily 2-3 MPH. All these other things cost substantially more, yet I'm getting the sense they don't have such a dramatic benefit. |
| 2009-06-22 3:15 PM in reply to: #2234853 |
| Champion 7595 Columbia, South Carolina | Subject: RE: How much faster? Daremo - 2009-06-22 4:08 PM ... When it comes to speed, you go for what makes you faster and NOT what might be faster if you should have a problem!! You guys know 110% more about this than I do, but I would have thought that the probability of a problem is relevant here. I mean, suppose (for the sake of argument) that a tubular is faster 'if there's no problem' but has a 50% chance of flatting, while the clincher has a 1% chance of flatting. I'd go with the clincher in that case. Obviously the numbers are made up and exaggerated, but the point is that it is a kind of expected value calculation, it seems to me -- depends on how much faster they are versus what increased risk one takes by using them. |
| 2009-06-22 3:17 PM in reply to: #2234889 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
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