General Discussion Triathlon Talk » And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene Rss Feed  
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2010-10-06 7:32 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
Wow, the NYC 5150 race is $245.  Maybe once, just for the novelty of racing in the city, but other than that, I'll stick to my NJ races.


2010-10-06 7:32 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
But if you were on a music forum, wouldn't you be inclined to discuss the reasons you don't like their music, and, conversely, the reasons you would buy and recommend the music of other groups?

What difference does it make (to anyone else) why I don't like their music?  Will they stop liking them because of what I say?  Should that be a goal of mine? 

My primary goals for directing the race I just did were to provide a good value for the participants and raise a little money for charity. I really don't think either of these would be found among the WTC's primary goals.

Would you do your job for nothing (this is their job)?  What I wanna know is....since when is "profit" a dirty word?  And, if you don't like what someone's selling.....what your best form of recourse/protest?  

All I'm saying is....the WTC bashing (c o n s t a n t l y) is hilarious.   

**EDIT...I might feel differently, once I've done a HIM and want to do another (non branded) race.....maybe even an OLY.  What does an OLY typically cost folks, now?  Are you getting your money's worth?  Has the WTC bought out your fav. OLY dist. tri?  What's the price increase?  Will you be getting your money's worth?

BEAR....I PROMISE you....if you RD a race that's local to me (for example) and your price is 1/2 (or 2/3, even) the cost of the WTC race.....and you put on a quality tri, I'll run your race.  Who are you really mad at in this situation?  Aren't triathletes the ones supporting the WTC?

Edited by nc452010 2010-10-06 7:41 AM
2010-10-06 7:44 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene

I'm not sure if this is a smart move on behalf of the WTC; $245 seems rediculously expensive for an oly--you can do full IM distance events for that much. Add in the fact that if it gets branded anything "iron" or "man" there will be people that will switch to other HIM and IM distance events. I think a lot of the IM and HIM racing that gets done is purely based on the brand name adding in a significantly shorter event really lowers the exclusivity of "ironman" events.

2010-10-06 7:50 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
The Wall St. Journal has an (the?) article on this today (sorry no link). The thrust of it is an expansion of the "ironman" brand to Oly distances, in an effort to make more $ for the priave equity firm which owns WTC. Some tri folks interviewed took the time to say "ironman" will always be a 140.6 race, as opposed to "Ironman" the brand which is what the article is about. Big difference, but I don't think WTC is making much of an effort to differentiate.  The guy running WTC is 42, and a 1996 Kona finisher.

Some other interesting stats from the article show triathlon is a fast growing sport, but I think folks on this site know that. In 2009, 1.2 million people in the US participated in a triathlon, with 58% of those racing an Oly, and 17% racing an ironman distance. The 1.2 million figure is up 50% from 2007.  Tri bike sales YTD (through August) are up 24% vs last year, and wetsuit sales are up 40%.
2010-10-06 7:52 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
OK to take a break from the good/bad of WTC taking over Oly's....

So Hy-Vee becomes the "US Championship"---does this mean it will be a qualifying race like Kona or Clearwater??  The announcement calls it a series but I'm ASSuming that's for the pro's mostly.  Or does Hy-Vee become two race (really three with the pro's) in one---a qualified (earned a slot at another series race) and then a general entry race (so that they can still have a big field?  Hy-Vee's website says they'll have an announcement today since registration is supposed to start today---you have to guess it's about WTC now doing the race but wonder if there will be any other details...
2010-10-06 7:58 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
nc452010 - 2010-10-06 7:32 AM But if you were on a music forum, wouldn't you be inclined to discuss the reasons you don't like their music, and, conversely, the reasons you would buy and recommend the music of other groups?

What difference does it make (to anyone else) why I don't like their music?  Will they stop liking them because of what I say?  Should that be a goal of mine? 

My primary goals for directing the race I just did were to provide a good value for the participants and raise a little money for charity. I really don't think either of these would be found among the WTC's primary goals.

Would you do your job for nothing (this is their job)?  What I wanna know is....since when is "profit" a dirty word?  And, if you don't like what someone's selling.....what your best form of recourse/protest?  

All I'm saying is....the WTC bashing (c o n s t a n t l y) is hilarious.   

**EDIT...I might feel differently, once I've done a HIM and want to do another (non branded) race.....maybe even an OLY.  What does an OLY typically cost folks, now?  Are you getting your money's worth?  Has the WTC bought out your fav. OLY dist. tri?  What's the price increase?  Will you be getting your money's worth?

BEAR....I PROMISE you....if you RD a race that's local to me (for example) and your price is 1/2 (or 2/3, even) the cost of the WTC race.....and you put on a quality tri, I'll run your race.  Who are you really mad at in this situation?  Aren't triathletes the ones supporting the WTC?


I do this job (RD) for nothing.

Personally I'm not "mad" at anyone. I've never done a WTC race, maybe I'll do an IM of theirs one day, but I can't ever see paying $250 for a HIM.

My race was $45. Talk to my participants to see what value they got from it.My business model is that the race fees from participants go to paying for the race and participant amenities, monies raised from sponsors go to our designated charities.

 Apparently the ones who do WTC races get good perceived value as well. People who pay >$2,000 for a Zipp wheel get good perceived value. Neither is for me.


2010-10-06 8:04 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
I don't disagree with anything you said, Bear.

But, where's the rub?  Is your race going away?  If so, WHY?
2010-10-06 8:12 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
I'm still a Tri newbie... WTC, ITU, USAT = Alphabet Soup to me. It sounds to me like the Tri community isn't happy with WTC over this latest 5150 race. Is it due to Triathlete's feeling the 5150 race diminishes the value of "Ironman" races?
2010-10-06 8:15 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene

I just saw that NYC is now a lottery. Glad I got that one in before that happens.  I wonder how much longer till St. A's becomes one too...glad I got THAT one done!

sheesh.  I thought having to register the day of for an oly was bad enough...this is getting depressing.

 

 

2010-10-06 8:19 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
Yeah, some people on FB were saying that a "5150" is a police call for dealing with someone with a mental illness.


I think the number is stupid. I don't get it. But hey, if it gets more people out exercising... then it's a good thing.


2010-10-06 8:19 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
L1011 - 2010-10-06 9:12 AM I'm still a Tri newbie... WTC, ITU, USAT = Alphabet Soup to me. It sounds to me like the Tri community isn't happy with WTC over this latest 5150 race. Is it due to Triathlete's feeling the 5150 race diminishes the value of "Ironman" races?


WTC tends to jack up the prices of races they run while not really providing anything extra other than their name.  Also IM branded races tend to bring more people thus making races more crowded.

Also Not sure it has been brought up over here but they are negotiating contracts with the cities where they hold their races to have "blackouts" on race venue's so some local established races that use the same lake as the IM branded races are not getting their contracts renewed.  Not sure if they would do that with these races or not but seems like their M.O.

All-in-all it's kind of like walmart moving into the area and knocking smaller businesses out.




Edited by dalessit 2010-10-06 8:20 AM


2010-10-06 8:25 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
L1011 - 2010-10-06 9:12 AM

I'm still a Tri newbie... WTC, ITU, USAT = Alphabet Soup to me. It sounds to me like the Tri community isn't happy with WTC over this latest 5150 race. Is it due to Triathlete's feeling the 5150 race diminishes the value of "Ironman" races?


WTC = "World Triathlon Corp"; AKA "Ironman" branded events.
ITU = International Triathlon Union
USAT - USA Triathlon

People are upset about WTC co-opting the Olympic distance events (now calling them "5150" races) because they tend to jack up prices, and because they because they have lots of advertising dollars, they can tend to out-compete smaller events and potentially drive some of them out of business. $245 for an olympic distance race sounds a little (well, more than a little!) beyond reason, to me.....
2010-10-06 8:30 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
This year the inaugural Syracuse 70.3 took place the same day as the traditional "season-closer" in upstate NY, The Finger Lakes Triathlon.  Even though the FLT consists of Sprint and Oly races, there was some worry in these parts that the WTC race would eat into the registrations for the established race which is the main fundraisers for an important local charity.

It didn't. Despite the 2200 registrations for the 70.3, the FLT added 100 slots and still sold out. The races were about 70 miles apart by car. There were approximately 3000 people racing in three different triathlons in upstate NY on that day, all within an hour and a half drive of each other.

Since Providence bought WTC this expansion has been inevitable. I fully expect to see this series expand over the next few years and for them to start including Sprints too.  I don't see this as a "take over" of triathlon. I see it as an expansion.  They're going to do a lot of marketing around this. And I would think that it's in their interest to be seen as the best of the bunch rather than the whole bunch. 

Now if it starts to limit the choices available for triathletes and drive prices up artificially because they buy out or squeeze out other races, that's a different story.  They have been known to present RD's of extant races with "deals they couldn't refuse." 

Should they start to expand to the point where they affect existing races, they need to be careful about the charity races.  If they come into a market and a local charity suddenly is out money because of it, they're in trouble. Still, these guys seem too smart for that. They're aggressive but not stupidly so.  St. A's seems to be an experiment with this area. I'd like to know what the deal was there. The race didn't need the rebranding, it was wildly successful already. How does this make more money for the hospital?

ETA: There is absolutely no way that I would pay that kind of money to do that distance race.  Not happening. There are International distance races making money in this area with registration prices 1/3 of that.
2010-10-06 8:33 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
same price as last year.   sold out in 6 minutes.  3180 slots.











2010-10-06 8:34 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
marmadaddy - 2010-10-06 9:30 AM This year the inaugural Syracuse 70.3 took place the same day as the traditional "season-closer" in upstate NY, The Finger Lakes Triathlon.  Even though the FLT consists of Sprint and Oly races, there was some worry in these parts that the WTC race would eat into the registrations for the established race which is the main fundraisers for an important local charity.

It didn't. Despite the 2200 registrations for the 70.3, the FLT added 100 slots and still sold out. The races were about 70 miles apart by car. There were approximately 3000 people racing in three different triathlons in upstate NY on that day, all within an hour and a half drive of each other.

Since Providence bought WTC this expansion has been inevitable. I fully expect to see this series expand over the next few years and for them to start including Sprints too.  I don't see this as a "take over" of triathlon. I see it as an expansion.  They're going to do a lot of marketing around this. And I would think that it's in their interest to be seen as the best of the bunch rather than the whole bunch. 

Now if it starts to limit the choices available for triathletes and drive prices up artificially because they buy out or squeeze out other races, that's a different story.  They have been known to present RD's of extant races with "deals they couldn't refuse." 

Should they start to expand to the point where they affect existing races, they need to be careful about the charity races.  If they come into a market and a local charity suddenly is out money because of it, they're in trouble. Still, these guys seem too smart for that. They're aggressive but not stupidly so.  St. A's seems to be an experiment with this area. I'd like to know what the deal was there. The race didn't need the rebranding, it was wildly successful already. How does this make more money for the hospital?


That's pretty much the same for quite a few races they bought, Bouder, Mooseman, Lone Star, all were popular races before WTC.  I assume someone is making money with the move else why do it?
2010-10-06 8:36 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
dalessit - 2010-10-06 9:34 AM
marmadaddy - 2010-10-06 9:30 AM
....

Should they start to expand to the point where they affect existing races, they need to be careful about the charity races.  If they come into a market and a local charity suddenly is out money because of it, they're in trouble. Still, these guys seem too smart for that. They're aggressive but not stupidly so.  St. A's seems to be an experiment with this area. I'd like to know what the deal was there. The race didn't need the rebranding, it was wildly successful already. How does this make more money for the hospital?


That's pretty much the same for quite a few races they bought, Bouder, Mooseman, Lone Star, all were popular races before WTC.  I assume someone is making money with the move else why do it?


Not quite correct. Mooseman and LoneStar are owned and produced by Endorfun. They pay a licensing fee to WTC to use the brandname/logo etc.

ETA:  Also, the races you name are for profit. They're not fundraisers. It's my understanding that the races that have chosen to license the 70.3 brand are satisfied with the return they've received for the licensing fee.


2010-10-06 8:37 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
Mike_D - 2010-10-06 7:50 AM The Wall St. Journal has an (the?) article on this today (sorry no link).


Here is the link for those interested. Both Mark Allen and Simon Whitfield chime in.
2010-10-06 8:43 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
JollyRoger - 2010-10-06 7:04 PM From Urban Dictionary.....

police code for crazy one on the loose. Danger to property, danger to others, and danger to themselves...

You better call the cops before she goes 5150 on your !!


and....

California code for a legal involuntary 72 hour psychiatric hold...

We 5150'd him against his will and sent him over to the inpatient facility.


It kinda makes sense, though, 5150 for people willing to pay ~$250 for an Oly.
2010-10-06 8:43 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
Just for clarification, EndorFUN Sports does not own Lone Star nor Mooseman anymore. WTC does.

We own and produce Big Lake Half Marathon, Black Fly Tri Fest, and Seawall Half Marathon.
2010-10-06 8:45 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
KEJ - 2010-10-06 9:43 AM Just for clarification, EndorFUN Sports does not own Lone Star nor Mooseman anymore. WTC does. We own and produce Big Lake Half Marathon, Black Fly Tri Fest, and Seawall Half Marathon.


No one tells me anything anymore.....
2010-10-06 8:54 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene

WTC tends to jack up the prices of races they run while not really providing anything extra other than their name.  Also IM branded races tend to bring more people thus making races more crowded.

Also Not sure it has been brought up over here but they are negotiating contracts with the cities where they hold their races to have "blackouts" on race venue's so some local established races that use the same lake as the IM branded races are not getting their contracts renewed.  Not sure if they would do that with these races or not but seems like their M.O.

All-in-all it's kind of like walmart moving into the area and knocking smaller businesses out.



I know the feeling all to well.  With the new Muncie70.3 the news of the "blackout" leaked out and has caused quite a stir.  I really don't see a need for a blackout of shorter local races other than to suffocate the competition.  



2010-10-06 8:56 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
Skippy74 - 2010-10-06 7:52 AM OK to take a break from the good/bad of WTC taking over Oly's....

So Hy-Vee becomes the "US Championship"---does this mean it will be a qualifying race like Kona or Clearwater??  The announcement calls it a series but I'm ASSuming that's for the pro's mostly.  Or does Hy-Vee become two race (really three with the pro's) in one---a qualified (earned a slot at another series race) and then a general entry race (so that they can still have a big field?  Hy-Vee's website says they'll have an announcement today since registration is supposed to start today---you have to guess it's about WTC now doing the race but wonder if there will be any other details...


This is one of my bigger issues.  If making the HyVee race a US Champiosnship makes it a race that you have to qualify for, then the big boom that Iowa has seen due to the HyVee triathlon (one of the most well presented races I have ever been in or to) is basically over.  It will also be the end of the only "big time" triathlon event in Iowa of the International distance (of any distance really - nobody comes close in swag, pomp, or crowd strength - let alone participation). 

Last year we paid $125.  I think the price will be at least $200, but I am guessing $250.  I guess last year was the last Hy-Vee triathlon I will do. 
2010-10-06 9:02 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
jdwright56 - 2010-10-06 9:56 PM
Skippy74 - 2010-10-06 7:52 AM OK to take a break from the good/bad of WTC taking over Oly's....

So Hy-Vee becomes the "US Championship"---does this mean it will be a qualifying race like Kona or Clearwater??  The announcement calls it a series but I'm ASSuming that's for the pro's mostly.  Or does Hy-Vee become two race (really three with the pro's) in one---a qualified (earned a slot at another series race) and then a general entry race (so that they can still have a big field?  Hy-Vee's website says they'll have an announcement today since registration is supposed to start today---you have to guess it's about WTC now doing the race but wonder if there will be any other details...


This is one of my bigger issues.  If making the HyVee race a US Champiosnship makes it a race that you have to qualify for, then the big boom that Iowa has seen due to the HyVee triathlon (one of the most well presented races I have ever been in or to) is basically over.  It will also be the end of the only "big time" triathlon event in Iowa of the International distance (of any distance really - nobody comes close in swag, pomp, or crowd strength - let alone participation). 

Last year we paid $125.  I think the price will be at least $200, but I am guessing $250.  I guess last year was the last Hy-Vee triathlon I will do. 


This makes me haz all kinds of sad. For Iowa, for HyVee, and John ... you're an icon of triathlon to so many people in the state and out.
2010-10-06 9:11 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
TriAya - 2010-10-06 9:02 AM
jdwright56 - 2010-10-06 9:56 PM
Skippy74 - 2010-10-06 7:52 AM OK to take a break from the good/bad of WTC taking over Oly's....

So Hy-Vee becomes the "US Championship"---does this mean it will be a qualifying race like Kona or Clearwater??  The announcement calls it a series but I'm ASSuming that's for the pro's mostly.  Or does Hy-Vee become two race (really three with the pro's) in one---a qualified (earned a slot at another series race) and then a general entry race (so that they can still have a big field?  Hy-Vee's website says they'll have an announcement today since registration is supposed to start today---you have to guess it's about WTC now doing the race but wonder if there will be any other details...


This is one of my bigger issues.  If making the HyVee race a US Champiosnship makes it a race that you have to qualify for, then the big boom that Iowa has seen due to the HyVee triathlon (one of the most well presented races I have ever been in or to) is basically over.  It will also be the end of the only "big time" triathlon event in Iowa of the International distance (of any distance really - nobody comes close in swag, pomp, or crowd strength - let alone participation). 

Last year we paid $125.  I think the price will be at least $200, but I am guessing $250.  I guess last year was the last Hy-Vee triathlon I will do. 


This makes me haz all kinds of sad. For Iowa, for HyVee, and John ... you're an icon of triathlon to so many people in the state and out.

Ahhhhh, but I am a slow moving icon, and really, there are so many more well-respected triathletes in this state than I.  I just tend to speak louder and carry the largest stick.    

Funny that you might mention it, but I just got a call from someone at Hy-Vee tri (I noted my dissatisfaction on both HyVee's Facebook page and my own).  I have not called back as of yet. 
2010-10-06 9:27 AM
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Subject: RE: And there we go...WTC breaks into the Olympic Distance scene
Hm, so I wonder how much St. Anthony's is going to go up this year...
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