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2015-01-29 7:45 PM
in reply to: kcarroll

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by kcarroll

Originally posted by ligersandtions

Originally posted by ChrisM I didn't know you were allowed to go under 100 w on this thread. Eye opening......

I was less than 100W a bunch this morning....pretty sure I didn't even see 200W either.  Am I going to get kicked out of SBRU?

Not to worry Nicole, I'm here to carry the lowest FTP in the group, so I'll be the first to get the boot. My recovery targets are so low they barely register. BTW, I think you're also doing the ToS. Pretty sure I'm not going to survive Stage 8. 

Yep, taking on the ToS madness again -- glad you're doing it too!  I've serious contemplated just skipping Stage 8!  I know I won't, but it's not gonna be pretty.  Sprints are not my thing (attacks are not my thing either!).  I don't think I have any of those three videos and no plans to buy them either....I'll suffer with music or a tv show or something instead!



2015-01-30 8:24 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by Hot Runner If they kick you guys out they'd probably have to kick me out too. Let's put it this way, if I'm "supposed to" be "recovering" at 60% FTP I'd barely be breaking 100 watts. If I'm seeing 200 watts, I'm probably seeing puke on the floor (or perhaps hallucinating). Maybe we should be talking watts/kg. Pretty sure some of us lightweight women could bust some big-dude butt on an alpine climb.

For sure, I don't think I would get along well with  mountain.  

What are these mountains you speak of???

2015-01-30 8:31 AM
in reply to: cdban66

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Quick check in - Chris, sorry to see that another injury is plaguing you again.  Sucks, and I think we can all relate to the impact on each of us mentally (some seem much more capabale of handling it than others - I fall into the "doesn't handle it well" group"). 

Struggling to stay motivated at the moment as training is very sporadic, life with two little kids (one pretty active) has taken a toll, and this is the biggest pressure on me mentally at the moment.  I struggle to get in workouts after a full day and the clock shows 9pm and I'm facing an hour on the bike and then straight into bed and rinse and repeat - more often than not I find myself bagging the workout and just spending the hour decompressing from the day so I can start again the next day.  I used to be so so for morning workouts but have hit 0% of them as I can't get up in the morning the past few months.  Keep telling myself I'm just facing a temporary block at the moment and I'll get past it, but when the time crunch hits I throw in the towel too often and can't get past it, and then feel the guilt for missing a day/workout.  C'est la vie at the moment. [/whine]

2015-01-30 8:36 AM
in reply to: cdban66

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by cdban66

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by Hot Runner If they kick you guys out they'd probably have to kick me out too. Let's put it this way, if I'm "supposed to" be "recovering" at 60% FTP I'd barely be breaking 100 watts. If I'm seeing 200 watts, I'm probably seeing puke on the floor (or perhaps hallucinating). Maybe we should be talking watts/kg. Pretty sure some of us lightweight women could bust some big-dude butt on an alpine climb.

For sure, I don't think I would get along well with  mountain.  

What are these mountains you speak of???

Drawbridges?

2015-01-30 11:01 AM
in reply to: cdban66

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Originally posted by cdban66

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by Hot Runner If they kick you guys out they'd probably have to kick me out too. Let's put it this way, if I'm "supposed to" be "recovering" at 60% FTP I'd barely be breaking 100 watts. If I'm seeing 200 watts, I'm probably seeing puke on the floor (or perhaps hallucinating). Maybe we should be talking watts/kg. Pretty sure some of us lightweight women could bust some big-dude butt on an alpine climb.

For sure, I don't think I would get along well with  mountain.  

What are these mountains you speak of???




He's looking at the snowbanks outside
2015-01-30 11:10 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by ChrisM

Originally posted by BrotherTri Hey in Golden Cheetah is the CP number your FTP? Chris I am seeing some sort of pattern with you getting injured. Are you warmup, cool down and stretching? I know you are pretty active outside SBR but something is not right.

Not good at any of those, except warm down.

It's usually ramping up running, as it happens every off season, when I try to do that.  But it's not over use as far as I know, as I follow the plan given to me.   Lately the 2 or 3 I've had have had specific identifiable causes.

Have they zero'd in on the cuplrit, muscle or other ?

Confirming talking about the hamstring.....    I did not go to any treatment for it as (IMO) it is a pretty standard grade 1 hamstring strain.  Just treated with ice, compression, rolling etc.

I do get some sort of injury every Dec through Jan it seems, as I concentrate on running.   Don't believe it's overuse as I am following Shane's mileage, or at least it's not ramping up too much as an issue.   I don't ever seem to get injured during triathlon season though, when the sports are more evenly balanced.



2015-01-30 1:17 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Marc,

Can you briefly explain to me again what the "calibration" or zero offset numbers mean again.  I haven't been good at doing offset before each ride, but much better about back pedaling several times in the middle of the ride.  It seems though the times I do check, the offset number is growing.  When I first changed my chainrings (older 975 quarq), it read in the -560 range.  Then it started creeping up to the -590 range.  I figured it was settling in...and a few weeks later it was around -660 to -680.  Yesterday I checked in the middle of a ride because I felt like it was under reporting and saw -717.  Not sure what to make of all this.  Maybe I just need to check the bolts to see if they are tightened properly? 

2015-01-30 1:53 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Originally posted by Jason N

Marc,

Can you briefly explain to me again what the "calibration" or zero offset numbers mean again.  I haven't been good at doing offset before each ride, but much better about back pedaling several times in the middle of the ride.  It seems though the times I do check, the offset number is growing.  When I first changed my chainrings (older 975 quarq), it read in the -560 range.  Then it started creeping up to the -590 range.  I figured it was settling in...and a few weeks later it was around -660 to -680.  Yesterday I checked in the middle of a ride because I felt like it was under reporting and saw -717.  Not sure what to make of all this.  Maybe I just need to check the bolts to see if they are tightened properly? 




My understanding may be off. But this is how I understand it

'Calibrating" is like setting your bathroom scale to 0. The scale may "see" some weight, but you adjust it make that look like 0
The PM is the same. It samples the PM, sees how much torque is applied at uses that as the 0. I would be curious to see if it would read much different with the chain removed for example. Position of the pedal is important. If they are at 3'oclock, that's not the same torque applied at 6 o'clock.

As long as the start and end values are not drifting too much (less tha 50) and as long as it's in -1000 to +1000 range, they say it's ok.

Another interesting thing to do is calibrate and as soon as it returns a value, back pedal 5 times and see if the value changes considerably. If so, there could be some wrong in your drivetrain. If not, you know that back pedalling does a good job of resetting to 0.

I would retorque your bolts now and then

Edited by marcag 2015-01-30 2:10 PM
2015-01-30 5:00 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by marcag
Originally posted by Jason N

Marc,

Can you briefly explain to me again what the "calibration" or zero offset numbers mean again.  I haven't been good at doing offset before each ride, but much better about back pedaling several times in the middle of the ride.  It seems though the times I do check, the offset number is growing.  When I first changed my chainrings (older 975 quarq), it read in the -560 range.  Then it started creeping up to the -590 range.  I figured it was settling in...and a few weeks later it was around -660 to -680.  Yesterday I checked in the middle of a ride because I felt like it was under reporting and saw -717.  Not sure what to make of all this.  Maybe I just need to check the bolts to see if they are tightened properly? 

My understanding may be off. But this is how I understand it 'Calibrating" is like setting your bathroom scale to 0. The scale may "see" some weight, but you adjust it make that look like 0 The PM is the same. It samples the PM, sees how much torque is applied at uses that as the 0. I would be curious to see if it would read much different with the chain removed for example. Position of the pedal is important. If they are at 3'oclock, that's not the same torque applied at 6 o'clock. As long as the start and end values are not drifting too much (less tha 50) and as long as it's in -1000 to +1000 range, they say it's ok. Another interesting thing to do is calibrate and as soon as it returns a value, back pedal 5 times and see if the value changes considerably. If so, there could be some wrong in your drivetrain. If not, you know that back pedalling does a good job of resetting to 0. I would retorque your bolts now and then

Sounds dirty. 

2015-01-30 5:33 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Marc, can you remind me what the drift means?  I know that the difference between the starting reading and the final reading divided by three is the number of watts difference, but I can't remember which way it works.  For example, on one of my last rides, the initial reading was 50 and the final reading war 65.  That's a differential of 15, which equates to 5W.

Now does that mean that what I stared reading at 200W at the start of my ride is equivalent to 205W or 195W (when still reading 200W) at the end of the ride?

I think (can't remember for sure) that in summer temperatures, my drift is the other way (e.g. would start at 65 and end at 50).

And if you back pedal throughout the ride, does this negate the need to worry about the drift (i.e. 200W at the start would be 200W at the end)? 

2015-01-30 6:00 PM
in reply to: ligersandtions

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Originally posted by ligersandtions

Marc, can you remind me what the drift means?  I know that the difference between the starting reading and the final reading divided by three is the number of watts difference, but I can't remember which way it works.  For example, on one of my last rides, the initial reading was 50 and the final reading war 65.  That's a differential of 15, which equates to 5W.

Now does that mean that what I stared reading at 200W at the start of my ride is equivalent to 205W or 195W (when still reading 200W) at the end of the ride?

I think (can't remember for sure) that in summer temperatures, my drift is the other way (e.g. would start at 65 and end at 50).

And if you back pedal throughout the ride, does this negate the need to worry about the drift (i.e. 200W at the start would be 200W at the end)? 





That is correct. If you got 65, rode 200w and at the end got a 50, in fact you ended the ride at 195w. Probability is you were areally t 195w 10-15 minutes after the start of the ride. But it would have been reading 200

Yes, back pedalling makes it read properly for the whole ride.

If you do an initial calibration and it says 65, stop after 10-15min, do it again, it will probably read close to 50 and at the end 50. This was my experience last summer. There seems to be a 10 minute settle in and then it stays pretty stable unless a bit change in temperature. Try it on the trainer for example.

it typically goes 65 to 50 ..... 25 to 10......-520 to -535

Jordan R has it written on his Garmin to remind him to zero


2015-01-30 7:25 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
So I did the 5' test at 329w then 2 days later did the 20' test at 288w. I put those in GC and my CP is 274 and my W' 16 but what is my FTP?

This is a 2x20' Threshold ride (90-95% FTP estimated 280w) I did tonight. Is there a way to see the average W in each of the 20' intervals? I there a way to grid 10w increments in the grid. Thanks







(2x250x20.png)



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2x250x20.png (62KB - 2 downloads)
2015-01-30 7:34 PM
in reply to: BrotherTri

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
oK according to this I averaged 268w for both those 20'





(2x250x20 data.jpg)



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2x250x20 data.jpg (94KB - 3 downloads)
2015-01-30 8:01 PM
in reply to: BrotherTri

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Marc I use this erg file

[COURSE HEADER]
VERSION = 2
UNITS = ENGLISH
DESCRIPTION = golden cheetah
FILE NAME = 2x250x20.erg
MINUTES WATTS
[END COURSE HEADER]
[COURSE DATA]
0 150
5 150
5 200
15 200
15 250
35 250
35 150
40 150
40 250
60 250
60 150
65 150
[END COURSE DATA]


150w is WAY to ez. The file gave me a good load to push against so I was happy.
2015-01-31 4:37 AM
in reply to: BrotherTri

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by BrotherTri So I did the 5' test at 329w then 2 days later did the 20' test at 288w. I put those in GC and my CP is 274 and my W' 16 but what is my FTP? This is a 2x20' Threshold ride (90-95% FTP estimated 280w) I did tonight. Is there a way to see the average W in each of the 20' intervals? I there a way to grid 10w increments in the grid. Thanks

I don't know of a way to set the grid in 10w increments but you can adjust the scale.  Along the left where it shows the units for watts, if you just click on it it will isolate the graph to just watts and a slider should appear at the top and bottom and you can slide it up and down to narrow down what you are seeing.

For the intervals - while that ride plot is up do you have the sidebar open on the left (see attached pic)?  It should show rides, intervals etc.  If not, click View then show left sidebar.  Then, along the bottom of the left sidebar are a few small buttons - one of them is for intervals, click that to show interval data in the sidebar (if it wasn't there already).  That should show you all of your laps.  You can either click on them in the list or as you hover your mouse over them in the ride plot they will show the data.  To change what data is displayed there, click Tools - Options then select metrics along the top and then the intervals tab.  You can adjust the fields there.  There is also the Summary tab there that lets you change what you see on the ride summary screen (the other screenshot you posted with the lap data).

 





(GC-sidebar.JPG)



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2015-01-31 4:44 AM
in reply to: BrotherTri

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by BrotherTri So I did the 5' test at 329w then 2 days later did the 20' test at 288w. I put those in GC and my CP is 274 and my W' 16 but what is my FTP?  

For the purposes of training, FTP and CP are essentially the same thing.  They have slightly different definitions (I might not get this quite right, correct me if I'm wrong).  FTP is the power that you could sustain for an hour while CP is the power that you could sustain for a long time (and thus Marc's comment that it is a few watts lower than FTP).  

If your workout says 90% of FTP, you can do 90% of CP.



2015-01-31 8:07 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Thanks Arend! The scale adjustment is perfect. Those hidden buttons and features are getting frustrating.



2015-01-31 8:11 AM
in reply to: BrotherTri

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by BrotherTri Thanks Arend! The scale adjustment is perfect. Those hidden buttons and features are getting frustrating.

There is so much GC can do if you go digging around.  It's unfortunate that you have to and some things aren't obvious at all but they are probably there somewhere.  If you find yourself wishing it would do X, it probably can!  

I've learned a lot about it just by subscribing to their email list.  https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/golden-cheetah-users

 

2015-01-31 8:58 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by BrotherTri So I did the 5' test at 329w then 2 days later did the 20' test at 288w. I put those in GC and my CP is 274 and my W' 16 but what is my FTP?  

For the purposes of training, FTP and CP are essentially the same thing.  They have slightly different definitions (I might not get this quite right, correct me if I'm wrong).  FTP is the power that you could sustain for an hour while CP is the power that you could sustain for a long time (and thus Marc's comment that it is a few watts lower than FTP).  

If your workout says 90% of FTP, you can do 90% of CP.




So here is the thing......

The 3 protocols I know for FTP number are:

20' test only take 92% of the 20' = FTP
5' blowout recover then 20' test take 95% of the 20' = FTP
1hr test = FTP

I did the "Power Thread" 5' & 20' on two different days. So if I take the 20' test 288w @92% then my FTP is 265w. If I do workouts @ 90% of that (FTP 265) would be 90% = 238w. That would be way to ez and not challenging at all. Can you see my confusion?

Right now I am do stuff at estimate FTP 280. Even the 2x20' yesterday at 90-95% 280 FTP was on the Threshold scale but seamed more Tempo. I even averaged 268w per each 20'. Very confused.......

I going to do a Vo2 trainer session tomorrow AM that will include 6x4' @325w w/2' ri or for the % it would be 6x4' @116% w/2' ri (based on 280 FTP).


2015-01-31 11:01 AM
in reply to: BrotherTri

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Originally posted by BrotherTri
I going to do a Vo2 trainer session tomorrow AM that will include 6x4' @325w w/2' ri or for the % it would be 6x4' @116% w/2' ri (based on 280 FTP).


That will be a tough workout but if you make it through I can guarantee your FTP is over 265 :-)
2015-01-31 12:01 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by BrotherTri
I going to do a Vo2 trainer session tomorrow AM that will include 6x4' @325w w/2' ri or for the % it would be 6x4' @116% w/2' ri (based on 280 FTP).


That will be a tough workout but if you make it through I can guarantee your FTP is over 265 :-)


I think the thing will make this tough is the 2' ri. I am making a erg file for it. The GC lap feature does not work for my CS ver 1.6. Any suggestions on the build. I was thinking 10' wu 5x30s max then 10' tempo'ish going into 6x4' @325w w/2' ri and hold on.....

any thoughts?



2015-01-31 12:29 PM
in reply to: BrotherTri

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by BrotherTri  I was thinking 10' wu 5x30s max then 10' tempo'ish going into 6x4' @325w w/2' ri and hold on..... any thoughts?

If Shane gives me a VO2max workout like that, the WU will never have 30s hard efforts in it but rather something like 5' @ 90% - so 10 ez, 5' @ 90%, 5' ez then the main set.  For a threshold type workout, it will be the opposite.  10 ez, 5x30s hard/30s ez, 5' ez and then the main set.

2015-01-31 12:30 PM
in reply to: BrotherTri

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Originally posted by BrotherTri

Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by BrotherTri
I going to do a Vo2 trainer session tomorrow AM that will include 6x4' @325w w/2' ri or for the % it would be 6x4' @116% w/2' ri (based on 280 FTP).


That will be a tough workout but if you make it through I can guarantee your FTP is over 265 :-)


I think the thing will make this tough is the 2' ri. I am making a erg file for it. The GC lap feature does not work for my CS ver 1.6. Any suggestions on the build. I was thinking 10' wu 5x30s max then 10' tempo'ish going into 6x4' @325w w/2' ri and hold on.....

any thoughts?




I would get to those 6x4 as fresh as possible. The 5x30 is to wake up the legs, you don't need to do 400watts IMO.

2015-01-31 1:14 PM
in reply to: BrotherTri

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by BrotherTri
Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by BrotherTri So I did the 5' test at 329w then 2 days later did the 20' test at 288w. I put those in GC and my CP is 274 and my W' 16 but what is my FTP?  

For the purposes of training, FTP and CP are essentially the same thing.  They have slightly different definitions (I might not get this quite right, correct me if I'm wrong).  FTP is the power that you could sustain for an hour while CP is the power that you could sustain for a long time (and thus Marc's comment that it is a few watts lower than FTP).  

If your workout says 90% of FTP, you can do 90% of CP.

So here is the thing...... The 3 protocols I know for FTP number are: 20' test only take 92% of the 20' = FTP 5' blowout recover then 20' test take 95% of the 20' = FTP 1hr test = FTP I did the "Power Thread" 5' & 20' on two different days. So if I take the 20' test 288w @92% then my FTP is 265w. If I do workouts @ 90% of that (FTP 265) would be 90% = 238w. That would be way to ez and not challenging at all. Can you see my confusion? Right now I am do stuff at estimate FTP 280. Even the 2x20' yesterday at 90-95% 280 FTP was on the Threshold scale but seamed more Tempo. I even averaged 268w per each 20'. Very confused....... I going to do a Vo2 trainer session tomorrow AM that will include 6x4' @325w w/2' ri or for the % it would be 6x4' @116% w/2' ri (based on 280 FTP).

James, from what you post, you sound a lot like me -- you want to analyze everything and make sure your FTP is exact to the watt.  Sometimes you just can't do that.  

From some of the workouts you've posted (like the one the other day where you did 70' of riding, accumulated 110 TSS, and did 4x8' VO2 intervals with only 2' rest), I suspect your FTP is set too low.  Long(er) intervals with short(ish) rest are typically more in the threshold range....VO2 intervals tend to have rest intervals closer to 50-100% of the working interval (for an 8' VO2 interval, I would think 4' rest would be more appropriate).  

Honestly, my bet is that your FTP is probably in the 300-310W range.  If I were you, I'd probably artificially bump up my FTP (without retesting) until you start feeling like that 2x20' feels more threshold and less tempo....and an 8' VO2 interval makes you want to cry and take 4' of recovery (less than 225W!).  

Just my $0.02....and if Marc/Ben/Arend/Chris/Rusty/whoever disagrees, listen to them over me -- they have more experience training and racing with power than I do, but I've worked hard to understand what makes sense and what doesn't. 

2015-01-31 1:29 PM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: SBR "U"
Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by BrotherTri

Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by BrotherTri
I going to do a Vo2 trainer session tomorrow AM that will include 6x4' @325w w/2' ri or for the % it would be 6x4' @116% w/2' ri (based on 280 FTP).


That will be a tough workout but if you make it through I can guarantee your FTP is over 265 :-)


I think the thing will make this tough is the 2' ri. I am making a erg file for it. The GC lap feature does not work for my CS ver 1.6. Any suggestions on the build. I was thinking 10' wu 5x30s max then 10' tempo'ish going into 6x4' @325w w/2' ri and hold on.....

any thoughts?




I would get to those 6x4 as fresh as possible. The 5x30 is to wake up the legs, you don't need to do 400watts IMO.




I hear you its going to be tough. I take a bit to warm up...........so I'll make some trims....
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