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 2015-02-01 1:08 PM in reply to: BrotherTri |
Master 10208   Northern IL |  Subject: RE: SBR "U"Originally posted by BrotherTri Originally posted by marcag Marc the erg mode provides the load I have to maintain the watts. If it should stay at a flat line I don't know how to set it other than peddling with more force. To me what is obvious is: 1. The WU at 280w in the erg file killed me. 2. I went to hard on the 1st and 2nd intervals so pacing in a problem for me. 3. The recovery watts at 2' was way to high at 200w. Yeah I could peddle but was bogged down same as wu. 4. The goal was Vo2 max for the intervals I meet that just couldn't maintain the watts. I really appreciate all the feeback. This was one of the toughest Vo2 max workouts I have done. It gave me a real good understanding on my limits. If and this just might my opinion Vo2 should be a failing effort or just about. Now I don't want to fail at all but the body will not respond to the almost stimulus if done all the time. Keep the feedback coming its what I need to crack this egg. Ben, Nicole, Jason and Arend thank you for feedback. I am listening and trying to understand. Originally posted by BrotherTri Thanks Marc NP screen shot Sorry, I meant NP on the summary screen, where you have the value for xpower... There is something very weird in your setup. It's not normal that you are saying "ride 325 watts" in Erg mode and it's fluctuating between 338 and 300. It's not normal that you get those dips in the middle of the intervals. I don't have a CT, but are you sure that's in erg mode? Between that and the gear changing question it sounds like slope, or operating like a more basic trainer if that's not the right term. |
| 2015-02-01 1:43 PM in reply to: ligersandtions |
Master 2621  Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Thanks Nicole. I did feel that ride. Tomorrow's will be ez, Wednesday a threshold not sure what but not so much sweat spot and Friday another Vo2 max maybe a repeat of the 4x8' with the recommendation of the group. Looking forward to improving. I need to soon start doing some longer interval rides. |
| 2015-02-01 1:49 PM in reply to: 0 |
Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by BrotherTri Originally posted by marcag Marc the erg mode provides the load I have to maintain the watts. If it should stay at a flat line I don't know how to set it other than peddling with more force. To me what is obvious is: 1. The WU at 280w in the erg file killed me. 2. I went to hard on the 1st and 2nd intervals so pacing in a problem for me. 3. The recovery watts at 2' was way to high at 200w. Yeah I could peddle but was bogged down same as wu. 4. The goal was Vo2 max for the intervals I meet that just couldn't maintain the watts. I really appreciate all the feeback. This was one of the toughest Vo2 max workouts I have done. It gave me a real good understanding on my limits. If and this just might my opinion Vo2 should be a failing effort or just about. Now I don't want to fail at all but the body will not respond to the almost stimulus if done all the time. Keep the feedback coming its what I need to crack this egg. Ben, Nicole, Jason and Arend thank you for feedback. I am listening and trying to understand. Originally posted by BrotherTri Thanks Marc NP screen shot Sorry, I meant NP on the summary screen, where you have the value for xpower... There is something very weird in your setup. It's not normal that you are saying "ride 325 watts" in Erg mode and it's fluctuating between 338 and 300. It's not normal that you get those dips in the middle of the intervals. I don't have a CT, but are you sure that's in erg mode? Between that and the gear changing question it sounds like slope, or operating like a more basic trainer if that's not the right term. Ben I open the erg file in the CT coaching soft ware very 1.6. It's read the file as load a provides that but I most certainly can peddle harder or softer so it does act like slope. EDIT The bigest advantage is in this was the CT provides a constant load through the peddle cycle. Trust me I feel the difference in the two. It's particularly harder over 300 watts. In just plan CT CS mode 300w is not that hard because I provide the force. If that makes sense. Edited by BrotherTri 2015-02-01 1:56 PM |
| 2015-02-01 1:56 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by ligersandtions Originally posted by marcag first of all, congratulations on a good ride what was your erg file programmed for ? If 116% for all intervals, how did it do 338 in the first and 300 in the last ? if I run erg, I will get within 1 watt what it's programmed for. Did you adjust it mid interval ? is this measured by the CT or the PT ? your intervals are not typical of what Erg mode would give Also, turn on Normalized Power on the summary screen. A normalized power close to your FTP for 1hr is a sign :-) What sign might that be? I stand by my earlier conclusion that I think James's FTP is set lower than it actually is. Also, as Arend noted, the W' went quite negative and thinks his minimum CP is 292W, rather than 280W.
Strong ride, James! Those power numbers are mind boggling It looks, and may be very wrong like it was an absolute sufferfest. Look at cadence.You can see power dropping, cadence dropping, you know the CT was adding load and I bet it felt like you were climbing a 20% grade hill. It looks like you were suffering during those intervals. Cadence is dropping all over. You drop down to 55. The last one looks like you just gave it all on the 2nd half of the interval. Power, cadence and of course HR went up. Knowing how a CT behaves, this looks painful. NP of 275 for a 1hr. VI of 1.08....it sounds like it was close to threshold I would definitely try to figure out a few things. First, why in Erg mode are you fluctuating so much. It's either that really slow cadence at times or the two power meters are off. 338 to 300w at the same erg setting is not normal. IMO, and this is a very personal opinion, these intervals were too hard and while you survived them you didn't execute them as well as you should even if it means backing off on the power and building up workout to workout. Edited by marcag 2015-02-01 2:25 PM |
| 2015-02-01 2:50 PM in reply to: marcag |
| Subject: RE: SBR "U" Before my ride this morning...the offset number was -759. Re torqued the bolts, and even though none of them really moved, the offset rose to -622. Back pedaled and went to -616 and stayed there. 30 minutes in, offset was at -674. 50 minutes in it was -689. But then it stayed there for almost 2 hours after that as I checked 3 more times. I also back pedaled many times throughout and my power numbers seemed much more reasonable. It was just a z2 ride, so hard to say for sure, but holding 190-210 watts was much easier than my warmup yesterday. I did do a 6.5 minute effort at 265 at the end of today's ride and even though I was already a bit fatigued 2 hours in, my hr was 10-12 bum lower than yesterday's effort. We'll see how it holds up on a harder interval workout, but the -680 range was the last offset number i remember where I didn't question my numbers. |
| 2015-02-01 2:58 PM in reply to: axteraa |
Veteran 2842 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by axteraa No? Yes, it gives a formula, but not really the nuts and bolts (just the general categories, I think). I suppose I could try to figure out how they do it by trying different speed measurements and such (m/s or mph or such) and other inputs to come up with an integer value for VO2max, but I'm not THAT interested. this http://www.firstbeat.com/userData/firstbeat/download/white_paper_VO2max_11-11-2014.pdf had some other description, but I don't see the actual algorithm. Of course, I just got back from a suffery ride/run, so maybe I'm just missing it. I'll look again later after I FEED. And Marc, I haven't raced in so long that I no longer know what my Vdot is. I was just curious how Garmin approached this in a more academic sense... Thanks. |
| 2015-02-01 5:59 PM in reply to: marcag |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Also wondering if the culprit could be a few exercises I've added to my strength routine to mix things up a bit. They shouldn't be straining those muscles but maybe I'm not doing them properly. I'm ridiculously busy this week and am sacrificing anything requiring the gym, so should be able to see if one of those is the cause. It shouldn't be running per se--one would think my body'd be used to that by now! |
| 2015-02-02 8:05 AM in reply to: Hot Runner |
Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by Hot Runner Geez...Maybe I'm lucky I don't have a power meter. All I'd do would be agonize about it. Right now all RPE until I can pick up a new HR monitor strap when I go home in a few weeks. (Maybe will take a look at low-end meters in the bike shops and Craigslist as well--I MIGHT be willing to go to $500 on one.) I have just been doing the bike workouts in Shane's plan by RPE, but for the third workout doing either Jorge's long ride or a modified version of the "sweet spot" ride with more easy/moderate riding at the start. Feel like I need to get in that time on my bike, and also adapt to the gradually increasing heat and humidity. I've ridden my road bike for the last two rides, in running shoes, as the tri bike doesn't have a computer on it and I want to re-accustom myself for a few weeks to riding on the road (I didn't July-December) before taking it out. My old pedals don't fit with the new cleats on my tri shoes (that now fit with the Cervelo's pedals) and my other shoes are in the US--kind of a mess. That being said, has anyone had the experience of tight/sore low back/hamstrings/glutes after starting to ride a tri bike? No sure what to attribute this to. I rode the P2 maybe five times before winter break, all on the trainer at low-moderate effort, and don't recall any issues then. If anything, the one or two brick runs I did went really well. But since coming back I've been suffering on my runs, especially long ones. This started on a few short beach runs I did on vacation (after a 12-day bike tour on a hybrid that felt pretty comfortable while riding, but wasn't my own bike) and has persisted now that I'm back and doing tri training. Except for the long rides, that's all been with the P2 on the trainer. I stay in aero most of the time. My long rides have either been MTB rides (on my own bike) or with the road bike on the road. Again, with the latter, I'm in aero probably 75-80% of the time, wherever it's safe. I've ridden a road bike with aerobars for several years and had very few issues with back, neck, or other soreness. But maybe position on a tri bike is different? How long should I try to get used to it before I take it back to the fitter? (I did have a professional fit, as much as is possible locally--no fancy equipment but the guy is a certified fitter and we took about three hours tweaking everything; it included lots of measurements, testing strength balance of different muscles, trying out different positions of the bars, different saddles, etc.) I can't think of anything else I've changed about training except maybe doing more intensity on the bike. I always do a lot of stretching for those areas, as well as strength/core work recommended by a PT, as I suffered from chronic hamstring/piriformis injuries for years. This isn't at that level, at least yet, but it worries me. Hot Runner I can't remember your name it's not in your signature. I trained with RPE for a very long time. Nothing wrong with that. I tried training with HR for a short time and it really did not fit me. Then I adopted a hybrid method of RPE with HR as a limiter. So if the workout was (run) was suppose to be tempo and I feel good running looking at the avg HR was to high I would just slow done. Same on the other side speed up unless HR will not increase. Hope you get my point. I only went power this year hopefully to take my bike to another level. It's a big investment. I went with a Powertap G3 (PT) hub and had built in a wheel I had. Cost $725. I had a Garmin 910XT which will read the PT so if you don't have a head unit you are going to pay several hundred dollar for that. Now I will most likely buy another head unit so I can have a dedicated unit working on the bike. Then I will most likely buy another hub PT G3 to mount in my race wheels so another $725. All done I could have 2k invested just in power. Granted you can cut that cost in half for only one set on PT wheels. Your back gluts hamstring issue. Sure it can take me a month to get right on the areo bike again. Really depending how long I've been out of that position and how long I need to stay in that position. Do not forget it is usually the odd things in life that injuries occur. Such a day later you tight from a workout you reach into the back seat of the car and bam you pulled a muscle. So my suggestion to all; continuous stretching throughout the day, proper warm up and cool down and stretching after exercising. Also if so workout in a gym do not forget leg curls and glut machine. Two of the most neglected muscle areas worked. I am assuming you bike fit is correct? Also sometines if off the bike for a long time it help to relax the overall fit. |
| 2015-02-02 9:00 AM in reply to: Hot Runner |
Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by Hot Runner Also wondering if the culprit could be a few exercises I've added to my strength routine to mix things up a bit. They shouldn't be straining those muscles but maybe I'm not doing them properly. I'm ridiculously busy this week and am sacrificing anything requiring the gym, so should be able to see if one of those is the cause. It shouldn't be running per se--one would think my body'd be used to that by now! Hey Karen, remember recovery needs to happen. So if you are doing to much then rest and light stretching. What are the few exercises are you suspecting? |
| 2015-02-02 9:20 AM in reply to: BrotherTri |
Veteran 2842 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Along the lines of James' post on stretching during the day and such, does anyone here use a standing desk at work? I went to one a couple months ago and quite like it. I am not only standing, but fidgeting and moving a whole lot more, as well (keeping things moving makes standing less brutal for me). I do, however, notice that the first month or so - and now on days when I'm standing for long periods and a good portion of the day - my backside tightens and gets sore (lower back, piriformis/hip girdle mainly). I'll switch it up and sit a few times during the day - and sometimes for more of it than others (as in when my legs are toasty!). Curious if anyone else uses one and if you've found it helpful, as well as if it's made you tight in different areas. Matt
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| 2015-02-02 9:28 AM in reply to: mcmanusclan5 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 Along the lines of James' post on stretching during the day and such, does anyone here use a standing desk at work? I went to one a couple months ago and quite like it. I am not only standing, but fidgeting and moving a whole lot more, as well (keeping things moving makes standing less brutal for me). I do, however, notice that the first month or so - and now on days when I'm standing for long periods and a good portion of the day - my backside tightens and gets sore (lower back, piriformis/hip girdle mainly). I'll switch it up and sit a few times during the day - and sometimes for more of it than others (as in when my legs are toasty!). Curious if anyone else uses one and if you've found it helpful, as well as if it's made you tight in different areas. Matt
I've thought about it and would like to have one but haven't gone through the process of getting one as it would have to go through a bunch of layers of evaluation, approval etc (I work for the Government, what else would you expect?) that would be a PITA. |
| 2015-02-02 3:17 PM in reply to: mcmanusclan5 |
Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Matt I've been lucky not to have a desk job most of my life. Well I guess that's not totally true. When I was in IT as Sever Admin/Network Engineer/DR specialist In PA. I had a desk but was out of it well over half of the time. The only time I was at the desk is checking email or doing paper work. I spent most of the time in the data center standing at severs or installing them at clients sites. I was the guy that did most of the physical work. Today was a slow ez slushy run this morning for me. I am at 57 runs of 100/100 and going strong. I was going to do 1.5 hours on the trainer this afternoon. I got very poor sleep last night and that pushed me into a relentless fatigue zone. It happens form time to time. I got home pulled into the drive and sat looking at the garage door wondering how I got there. So I ended up taken a nap with the dogs. What did everybody else get done today? |
| 2015-02-02 3:20 PM in reply to: mcmanusclan5 |
| Seattle | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 Along the lines of James' post on stretching during the day and such, does anyone here use a standing desk at work? I went to one a couple months ago and quite like it. I am not only standing, but fidgeting and moving a whole lot more, as well (keeping things moving makes standing less brutal for me). I do, however, notice that the first month or so - and now on days when I'm standing for long periods and a good portion of the day - my backside tightens and gets sore (lower back, piriformis/hip girdle mainly). I'll switch it up and sit a few times during the day - and sometimes for more of it than others (as in when my legs are toasty!). Curious if anyone else uses one and if you've found it helpful, as well as if it's made you tight in different areas. Matt
Yeah, I've got one that's flexible. Although I almost never stand. I'm too tired! |
| 2015-02-02 3:38 PM in reply to: Asalzwed |
| Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 Along the lines of James' post on stretching during the day and such, does anyone here use a standing desk at work? I went to one a couple months ago and quite like it. I am not only standing, but fidgeting and moving a whole lot more, as well (keeping things moving makes standing less brutal for me). I do, however, notice that the first month or so - and now on days when I'm standing for long periods and a good portion of the day - my backside tightens and gets sore (lower back, piriformis/hip girdle mainly). I'll switch it up and sit a few times during the day - and sometimes for more of it than others (as in when my legs are toasty!). Curious if anyone else uses one and if you've found it helpful, as well as if it's made you tight in different areas. Matt
Yeah, I've got one that's flexible. Although I almost never stand. I'm too tired! This is approximately my work posture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uv1PxInJnY
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| 2015-02-03 7:21 AM in reply to: spudone |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Gotta love how I keep getting 3rd every week for climbing in our Strava group even though I'm entirely on the trainer totaling 0ft. |
| 2015-02-03 7:56 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by brigby1 Gotta love how I keep getting 3rd every week for climbing in our Strava group even though I'm entirely on the trainer totaling 0ft. Climbing block? We are completely buried in snow here today. I can't remember ever having this much snow come down in a single storm. |
| 2015-02-03 8:00 AM in reply to: Asalzwed |
Master 8247 Eugene, Oregon Bronze member | Subject: RE: SBR "U" OMG would any of you desk-job folks like MY job? It's pretty normal for me to work a ten hour day and only sit down for a few minutes two or three times. Just finished a day where I was on my feet without any major break from 4:45 AM to 7:45 PM ( morning run, get to school, teach with no break from 7:45 to 11:45, bus to track meet, coach at meet from 1 PM-6:15 PM, back on bus, make sure all kids are picked up, stop at store on way home..... ) My only down time was sitting on the bus, where I'm still partly responsible for kids' behavior and safety. What is this thing called recovery? I do easy days in training, but the reality is that my only true recovery is sleep! Pretty much every day is a marathon that leaves me crawling to bed by 9 PM.I would never dream of asking for a standing desk. Now, if there was one where you could lie down, I'd be interested! |
| 2015-02-03 8:02 AM in reply to: Hot Runner |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by Hot Runner OMG would any of you desk-job folks like MY job? It's pretty normal for me to work a ten hour day and only sit down for a few minutes two or three times. Just finished a day where I was on my feet without any major break from 4:45 AM to 7:45 PM ( morning run, get to school, teach with no break from 7:45 to 11:45, bus to track meet, coach at meet from 1 PM-6:15 PM, back on bus, make sure all kids are picked up, stop at store on way home..... ) My only down time was sitting on the bus, where I'm still partly responsible for kids' behavior and safety. What is this thing called recovery? I do easy days in training, but the reality is that my only true recovery is sleep! Pretty much every day is a marathon that leaves me crawling to bed by 9 PM.I would never dream of asking for a standing desk. Now, if there was one where you could lie down, I'd be interested! Hmm, no thanks! |
| 2015-02-03 8:15 AM in reply to: axteraa |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by axteraa Originally posted by brigby1 Gotta love how I keep getting 3rd every week for climbing in our Strava group even though I'm entirely on the trainer totaling 0ft. Climbing block? We are completely buried in snow here today. I can't remember ever having this much snow come down in a single storm. Am I at a higher altitude than the others? Apparently the weekend storm was more than I thought. I went out several times during the day and roads were decent for being in a storm. Usually covered, but just a little bit on them. Down by the city seems to be saying one of the biggest in history. Never struck me as bad at any point during the day, seems more that the snowfall just lasted so long, falling strong from beyond dawn to dusk. The storm a couple years ago was worse for us. Everyone mostly threw their hands up until the heaviest part passed. Only time I can remember where the roads officially closed. |
| 2015-02-03 8:18 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR "U" I'll stand at work quite a bit when actually doing testing (I work in a lab), but when I'm doing more traditional desk work I want to sit. |
| 2015-02-03 8:37 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by axteraa Originally posted by brigby1 Gotta love how I keep getting 3rd every week for climbing in our Strava group even though I'm entirely on the trainer totaling 0ft. Climbing block? We are completely buried in snow here today. I can't remember ever having this much snow come down in a single storm. Am I at a higher altitude than the others? Apparently the weekend storm was more than I thought. I went out several times during the day and roads were decent for being in a storm. Usually covered, but just a little bit on them. Down by the city seems to be saying one of the biggest in history. Never struck me as bad at any point during the day, seems more that the snowfall just lasted so long, falling strong from beyond dawn to dusk. The storm a couple years ago was worse for us. Everyone mostly threw their hands up until the heaviest part passed. Only time I can remember where the roads officially closed. wow - I completely forgot we even HAD a Strava group, thanks for the reminder, Ben. Looks like I am generally doing OK. I think we should secretly coordinate an attack on Jason though and knock him off the top of the podium one of these weeks - what do you say? No snow here, but it was 23 degrees F (-5c) and dark at the start of this mornings ride, and my water bottle froze solid, so I had that going for me. I had a 15/10/5 minute set of intervals and managed to hold 4.1w/kg on the last 5 minute effort. So I still have a ways to go, but the weight and the watts are going in the (good) opposite direction from each other. Happy about that as I had a couple of busted workouts last week that had me a little discouraged. |
| 2015-02-03 8:43 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: SBR "U" I too am fortunate enough not to be teathered to a desk all day - I have one of those jobs where I go to everyone else and am generally on my feet all day as well. I am outside on construction sites for a large part of my work, or inside in one of our shops. Our "classrooms" (we call them studios) are more like production shops with large standing desks where the students are generally making models and prototypes of the things they are designing. For those unfamiliar with the design/build education format, I always describe the studio as being a lot like Santa's workshop just before Christmas. Except the elves are slightly more surly. |
| 2015-02-03 12:59 PM in reply to: TankBoy |
Veteran 2842 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: SBR "U" My job does have a fair amount of desk or meeting time, unfortunately. I have, however, brought in the standing desks as an option for anyone that wants one and also the "sitting-ball-for-a-seat" chairs (forgot what they're called) and have one on order myself. We kicked off a wellness initiative just after I joined this summer and it's really been fun, as I'm also seeing people doing walking meetings (the IT group introduced that one at our last company meeting wellness segment with a time-lapse video of an actual meeting where they walked around the building with a laptop - goofy but pretty funny) and we've brought in some healthier food options and other elements. One of the nicer parts is that now that I'm running from work up to a couple times a week, I've also noticed a lot of other folks starting to run, walk, use the gym etc. during their breaks. And productivity has only gone up... Good times! Anywho, was just wondering if anyone else got tight from standing at a desk (rather than standing and moving all day - as some of you are clearly doing!). Seems better than sitting (Arend, I hear you on the back thing). Hope you can all stay healthy at work! (and don't rub it in James that your work is, in part, staying healthy!). Matt |
| 2015-02-03 1:01 PM in reply to: TankBoy |
Veteran 2842 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: SBR "U" Originally posted by TankBoy Originally posted by brigby1 Originally posted by axteraa Originally posted by brigby1 Gotta love how I keep getting 3rd every week for climbing in our Strava group even though I'm entirely on the trainer totaling 0ft. Climbing block? We are completely buried in snow here today. I can't remember ever having this much snow come down in a single storm. Am I at a higher altitude than the others? Apparently the weekend storm was more than I thought. I went out several times during the day and roads were decent for being in a storm. Usually covered, but just a little bit on them. Down by the city seems to be saying one of the biggest in history. Never struck me as bad at any point during the day, seems more that the snowfall just lasted so long, falling strong from beyond dawn to dusk. The storm a couple years ago was worse for us. Everyone mostly threw their hands up until the heaviest part passed. Only time I can remember where the roads officially closed. wow - I completely forgot we even HAD a Strava group, thanks for the reminder, Ben. Looks like I am generally doing OK. I think we should secretly coordinate an attack on Jason though and knock him off the top of the podium one of these weeks - what do you say? No snow here, but it was 23 degrees F (-5c) and dark at the start of this mornings ride, and my water bottle froze solid, so I had that going for me. I had a 15/10/5 minute set of intervals and managed to hold 4.1w/kg on the last 5 minute effort. So I still have a ways to go, but the weight and the watts are going in the (good) opposite direction from each other. Happy about that as I had a couple of busted workouts last week that had me a little discouraged. There's an SBR Strava group? Uh oh - I can see that leading to some very bad decisions for this Stravaholic. Actually, I'm afraid to see what the leaderboard even looks like with this group! Matt |
| 2015-02-03 1:09 PM in reply to: mcmanusclan5 |
| Subject: RE: SBR "U" I believe it's can't remember the exact name, but it's one of these BT Mentor Strava Group |
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