Cycling Program v3.0 - 2010 - 2011 (Page 26)

20min power test in the books.  Averaged 247 over the first 16min, and then from some magical place dug deep and pushed 267 for the last 4min = 252 average (up from 241 on the last test).  Really not sure how I managed to find the extra, but I had a goal of 250 in my head at the start and I think that forced me to overcome what my body was telling me I shouldn't be doing.  We'll see what the 3min test holds at the end of the week.

Mike, I would say that fighting a cold last week would raise your HR this week for a TT and since I am feeling a little ill today (the day after) I am thinking that's why my HR was jacked up during the TT as well.  After viewing the logs of those who are using power as their markers, I am going to have more faith in that despite HR and MPH my training is working.  I don't look forward to raising my HR goals again in the upcoming weeks but I suspect that's no different for those who adjust for higher watts.

For those using a power meter and who happen to track your avg HR during the TT, what have you all noticed over the 3 tests?  HR's up, the same, down??? 

Edited by smarchildon 2011-01-05 8:02 AM

yes it would. for coming weeks certainly adjust between 151-157 based on how your body feels. You want to be pushing but you want to be able to complete your sessions. When the intensity is too hard, it is ok to go a bit easier!

This really depends on different things like your fitness of course, time of the day you are testing, trainer setup, nutrition/hydration, etc.

Usually all 3 can happen, as your fitness improves you might be able to push a bit more and average a higher HR, you can push harder but since your body physiological adaptations have improved now your HR might remain the same or even decrease.

In the long run HR decrease as we age though...

A key thing for all training with either HR or Power - don't get too wrapped up on the absolute accuracy of numbers whether your Threshold Heart rate is 152 or 154 bpm or your power is 250-252 watts.

Our fitness fluctuates every day based on different variables like rest, stress, daily nutrition, time of the day, accumulated fatigue, etc. What is very important is for you to proactive at developing your perceive exertion in combination with your HR/power

What I mean is, your threshold HR or CP are estimates of where your fitness was at a given point when you tested. That estimate will allow you have an idea of your capabilities (fitness) and let you train more efficiently. Still, since the fitness changes every day, use your RPE dictate the effort and use your HR/Watts as a way to see if you are roughly on the ball park for a given session.

For instance, if your 20MP is 250 watts (or 170 bpm) then you know for the 6x4' session you should be roughly around that intensity, still different things could happen:

1. you have been doing a great job resting, eating, recovering, managing your swim/run, etc. and on the day of the session you manage to average a bit more (i.e 252w or 171bpm) even though your RPE feels like you are just pushing at your usual 20MP. IOW, at the higher intensity level, the effort level was 'easier' or, for your body it 'feels' just right yet you are able to push harder.

2. you have been doing a solid job resting, eating, recovering, managing your swim/run, etc. and during the session you average your 20MP. It means on that day based on how your body 'feels', the intensity level matched your effort level (perceived exertion)

3. you have not been doing a solid job resting, eating, recovering, managing your swim/run, etc. and during the session you can comlpete it all but at a lower intensity (i.e. 245w or 168bpm) yet for your body, the effort level 'feels' much harder. The effort level was harder of the actual intensity.

4. You have been doing a terrible job resting, eating, recovering, managing your swim/run, etc. and during the session since set #1 it 'feels' very hard though you are at or below your 20MP and by the 2nd or 3rd set you are completely cooked and are forced to stop the session. Given your body's stage all intensity levels feel much harder of what they usually are when rested hence the effort level is greater.

In the long run for most workouts your power/HR will follow a pattern and fall within what the estimated training levels suggest. But the daily variation can be such that trying to quantify it to the decimal watt is just an overkill.

If you learn to listen to your RPE eventually is like ridnig with a built in power meter/heart rate monitor and based on the different variables we have to deal with every day, you will be able to choose the right intensity based on how your body 'feels' on a given day. This will become very helpful when you train outdoors and for racing.

HR/Power are tools to helps us make better training decisions, quantify load and even predict performance, still all are just complements to RPE because one you learn to use yours, it will tell you all you need to know about your body on that particular moment!

Great post Jorge - thanks for that.  I'm certainly one who gets caught up in the numbers too much sometimes.

Jorge,

With some of this discussion of HR vs. Power training, do you feel those training with power should still be wearing the HR strap as well, and if so, what should we be looking at?

Given the variability of HR, I wouldn't choose it over power or PE for effort level or pacing.  In fact, in general, it seems like if you've got a good sense of PE, it would be superior to HR for augmenting power-based training for things like recovery between intervals, but I can imagine when coaching other athletes, HR is probably a good way to get a sense of the PE the athlete experienced.

I liked the discussion about the HR test and how it's changing/not changing, so I thought I'd thow out my data for my last two 20 min power tests:

First:      20 min 01sec, 7.51 miles, 22.50 mph, 167 bpm avg, 177 bpm max, 272 W avg
Second: 20 min 03sec, 7.51 miles, 22.48 mph, 154 bpm avg, 171 bpm max, 282 W avg
How's that for some conficting data!

Please note, since I have power, I made no effort to replicate training set up (all I did was calibrate the pm before each ride so tire psi, trainer tension, fan set up, temperature could have been different).  I also think I felt about the same each test, but who knows.  As for the power variability, that could account for some, e.g. if I was much smoother on the second try, i could have averaged greater watts with less overall effort.  Being only my third try at this, I think that could account for some of it.

I am very poor at PE, everything feels hard :-)

I always wear the HR while with training power and have a pretty good idea of what HR equals what power output, and it's pretty consistent.

This allows me to train with HR on a bike that doesn't have a PM, such as my cross bike. It's practical when i travel because I can use the bike in the hotel gym.

It's also my 'plan b' should my power meter fail in a race, because of batteries or other reason.

If in a race my HR was 10BPM higher for a given wattage than normal, due to heat or other reasons, I would back off my wattage a little.

It doesn't cost anything to wear both, understand the correlation, but always train by one and be consistent.

Again, this is because I am bad at PE

This is a sensible topic and not an easy answer because it will invariable depend on who you ask. in *MY* opinion, once an athlete learns how to effectively use a power meter to track performance, fitness gains, pacing, fueling, etc. But above it all, to use it effectively as a complement to what your RPE tells you during a particualr session or race, then a HR becomes at best redundant and at worst misleading (to quote A. Coggan)

For that reason *I* choose not to use a HR anymore; I felt it was just another number that rarely gave me something I already didn't know with RPE/power. It became too much and just a waste of energy, just another number to worry about. I stop using a HR a while ago but I only after I felt confident I was so in tune with my RPE that I could rely on it and use my power meter (or pace for swim/run) to complement what my body was telling me and make decisions based on that.

For some reason I always had a better 'feel' for my body when running but not a good grasp on my RPE when biking. For some reason it was very difficult for me to figure out my pacing/intensity on the bike by 'feel' and using a HR was not helping me much either. IOW, my learning curve was very slow even though when running it came natural to me.

I could be running by feel and guess within a few beats my HR and with 5-10 seconds my pace. Biking? forgetaboutit! When I began training with power it all of the sudden began making sense and my learning curve got shorter and shorter to the point I could guess my power fairly accurate based on feel. That to me was an eye opener experience and made me a power convert.

Still, that was just *my* personal experience. Some athletes have a better feel for a particular sport and HR training was been very useful in developing that feel. Experienced athletes develop that feel to the point pacing is 2nd nature most of the time. It is why many elite athletes can pace very evenly by feel and manage their efforts regardless of the distance. They have developed their built in power meter/HR aka as RPE. For them using a power meter/HR is more to make training more efficient or to provide greater info for their coaches as opposed to what most AGers do when learning which is to connect the live data provided by the tool with their RPE.

Athletes like Chrissie Wellington who doesn't train by power/HR is the type of athlete I am talking about. If she would get to test her CP and then race an IM, I can guarantee her pacing would fall along the lines of what you would expect for an elite athlete ('x' % of her CP) even though she has never use a power meter. The same would occur with a HR.

We see many arguments between HR vs Power and the reality is that both can be very helpful and both have its limitations (one more than the other), and it is just about what each athlete feels comfortable using. In the end, neither tool will be as complete as what your RPE can tell you on a particular moment whether training or racing. Athletes should use any tool that fits their needs/budget but not to dictate their training, IMO, it should complement it and have the ultimate goal to help you develop your RPE.

PS. That said, if I didn't have a power meter I would use HR and RPE on the bike for sure...

So, say someone did the 20MP test, then that week got busy, and well, lazy and had a new years eve in there, and what not.... and didn't get the 3MP test done that week.

Pick up the 3MP test the next week?

Just stick with the 20MP test for power data and do workouts based on that?

Estimate a 3MP (i.e., say 50W higher) and go with that?

Thanks, and I'll let "my friend" know what he...  or she...  should do

I'm no Jorge but I think your friend should do the 3' test anyway.  I mean, if we had to do it, your friend should have to do it. 

I don't think estimating it would be a good idea.  Throw some different numbers in the spreadsheet and you will see how much variance it can cause.  I'd say do the test - I mean, it's only 3 mins right, how bad could it be? 

*edit to insert evil laughter

Edited by axteraa 2011-01-05 2:49 PM

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this Jorge. Fortunately, the big argument around here on power vs HR is along the lines of "You think your testing is hard?  You should try what *we're* doing!"

I also noticed my HR is lower by 5-7BPM if I drop my cadence at the same wattage. I feel more tired at the end of a low cadence ride, but my HR will be lower for some reason. It would be interesting to look at the cadence difference between the 2 rides.

Finished the 3min test and got the watts up to 326 for this test.  New CP = 239 watts.  Keep it coming Jorge, I want more and more.  Hope that's not being greedy. 

Did the 3' test this afternoon.  Had the same avg 319w as last time but CP is up to 227w (increase of 4w) when combined with the 20' test.  It's very encouraging to keep seeing the progress!

It looks aprticularly painful.

Do you stay awake at night dreaming of ways to make us hurt?

As you noticed the plan while general is designed to mix and progressively increase the training load all based on the simple training concept stress/adaptation. Many times I see general training plans or hear athletes/coaches talk about building a 'base' or set up programs with a very limited training mix ergo low training load that barely will force your body to adapt to the induced stress.

This means a very slow progression and increase in training fitness. This to me is simply a waste of training time for age groupers that biggest limiter is training time availability. The flip side of the coin is that doing too much stress (load) without proper time for your body to adapt can induce injuries or burn out.

This plan considers that by having you train within your OWN limitations, that's why we test so often so you can always push your body within your current fitness level. But this also allows your body to continue to adapt to the greater stress but to recover in between. When will your fitness gains will stop? well it depends, depends on how close to your physiological potential you are (this is not an issue for most AGers), how consistent you are with your training and when you have to shift your focus from improving your CP exclusively to prepare for your main events for the season.

The main goal of the plan is really that, to push you as much as possible within your own limitations to increase your CP (or HR near MLSS) as much as possible and then once you switch to focus to your main events, you can just maintain that fitness while you do your specific training.

*IF* you manage your load well through the year your training gains while they will slow down, there is a good chance they won't stop until you hit the off-season! AS an athlete or coach, if you understand this simple physiological and training concepts, you can lay down a plan to have constantly stressing and adapting!

It is meant to be fun!