Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. (Page 26)

I got the FSA Gossamer and Praxis rings. 110 BCD & 172.5 since that was what I was already riding and wanted to keep it consistent. Nice quality all around, it's been working well. I was stretching the budget as it was so I didn't even look at the type S.


Edited by cdkayak 2014-01-15 9:38 PM

Threshold Workout 2 is in the books and I found it to maybe be a touch harder than number one. My quads were pretty much angry with me the entire ride so it might have just been fatigue for me as well. I did ride the last interval hard and was at or above FTP pretty much that whole set without dropping off. Got the max heart rate up to 160 this go round vs. 151 on the threshold 1. Sweet spot will be Friday or Sat.

Ron



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Ron2014-01-16-bt-power-week-2-thr-2-628986.tcx (1583KB - 4 downloads)

Second workout done. I reversed the VO2-1 and THR-1 by mistake this week, just clicked on the wrong one Monday & was wondering why my workout looked different than everyone elses in TR afterwards. The VO2 felt easier than the THR but neither were too brutal. I'll be doing the SweetSpot Friday night or Saturday morning so I'll see how that one goes.





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cdkayak-WK2-THR-1.csv (151KB - 8 downloads)

I was finally able to redo my 20' test. It was ROUGH! I think I could have gone a little bit harder, but I was worried about pacing. I'm a bit behind at the moment. Things were crazy the last couple days with the start of the spring semester, but I should be getting back to normal now.

Here's my GC file.



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Sarah first full 20 min FTP test.csv (128KB - 8 downloads)

Agreed. The workout did seem a little easier to me. Not that I'm complaining!! I really enjoyed it but it will be interesting to hear Marc's & Shane's reasoning behind the workout.

Jim

I'll leave it to Shane to explain it since he is the author.
I agree that workout is a bit easier than the others. On the other hand it says > 105% so you can go higher if you want. I usually do the 30s intervals in the range "hard", right above my VO2 range.
And you can be nice and rested for Sweetspot :-)

Your first 20' test. Congratulations

For some reason it isn't working properly for me.

What did the best 20' interval give ?
Did you do a 5' test ?

2nd Threshold workout in the books,

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/430778763

I feel like I have a bit of difficulty holding power steady. Workout felt similar in difficulty to #1,

How is everyone managing their other 2 sports ?

I am hopefully coming to the end of an achilles recovery so will probably start adding some run miles. I have been running consistently but short distances.

I try to swim at least 3x per week, sometimes 4. I did a timed 400m this morning and my swim is good (by my low standards).

It will be interesting to see how the load progresses over the next few weeks and my ability to run and swim.

I'm an ok swimmer for a triathlete, but let me tell you, the real swimmers are something else to watch.
It just seems so effortless. I fight the water, and always lose.

Under water video is a MUST. All the magic (and the bad stuff) is happening under water. From above, I look ok. From below...yowsers....once I saw ....I knew what I had to do. I have been working my endurance and technique. This morning on a 400m from a push off the wall I went 15s faster than last spring with a dive, so probably 4-5s/100m faster.

I have been registering for swim meets to keep my motivation going. It's like doing a CP test :-) in Feb I registered for the 100m, 200m and 800m.

The myth that swimming is not important is a myth. It's very important even on long distance.

Running is going pretty well, working on a goal of 6 days a week. I've been doing my short runs during lunchtime at work and that's been working out nicely. I'm working the mileage back up as well. Overall it feels good. Running a 'Frozen 4 miler' this Sunday & a HM in late Feb.

I've been slacking on the swimming though. Been doing some dry-land workouts but not enough pool time. Heading to a swim clinic on Monday & will get to try out an endless pool for the first time. Hoping to get back into a routine soon, I'd like to get in 2 swims a week. I'm comfortable in the water so it usually gets the least focus in my training, but I do need to build up my endurance in the water again.

Speaking of the other sports. In an earlier post you mentioned loading all your workouts into GC to track stress balance data for the PMC chart. Do you set up a second athlete for that so it doesn't effect the bike specific data? Or is GC smart enough in the CP chart (or other charts we'll be using) to only use bike data there?

I had a foot injury on my 6 mile run this past Sat so I've laid off for this week to let it heal. Not exactly sure what it was but I have pain pretty much opposite of my arch (outside edge) of my right foot. Did not hurt during the run but once i drove back home and stepped out on it I knew I had an issue. It does not bother me on the bike. Going to do an easy run today and see how it responds. Up till then been able to maintain 3 days a week running.

Just really started going on my swimming and doing 2 days a week right now. Need to boost that to 3 and get a coach. I'm a terrible swimmer but I manage to plow through 1000 yard sessions with 20 to 30 sec of rest between 100's. I'm a sad 3 min per hundred average.

Ron

There are a couple of reasons that I use a 30/30 for the first few VO2max intervals and they tend to be quite effective even if they don't feel as hard as a big VO2max interval (like 5 minutes with 3 minutes easy).

1) They are a nice way to get used to riding hard but since they are broken up into small work/rest cycles, they tend to feel a bit easier. This generally will also allow and athlete to go harder in these than they would for a full five minutes and is why they are written as >105% instead of at VO2max power so that you can give a hard effort during these.

2) Another aspect is that there is research that suggests that a 30/30 protocol elicits a similar response to being at VO2max power the entire time; so while it may not feel hard, they will tend to help the body make the adaptations required to complete longer VO2max intervals later in the program.

Shane

Threshold #2 is done.

This workout didn't hurt as much as workout #1, but that's probably the "sprinter" in me enjoying the shorter intervals.

Chris

PS - Here are the FIT files for both workouts #1 & #2


Edited by croyston 2014-01-16 8:58 AM




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croyston-btpower-wk2-thres1.FIT (66KB - 7 downloads)
croyston-btpower-wk2-thres2.FIT (56KB - 3 downloads)

GC does a poor job on the other sports :-(

That's actually why I use TP. I find It does a decent job on swim and run IF you have your thresholds properly set.

Some people say that TSS for swim & run is not as exact as cycling but I find it pretty close. 1hr 70TSS points across sports feels pretty close for me.

Raceday Apollo also does a good job on the other sports.

I plan on running tomorrow and trying to get to the pool as well. Have to get back in gear all around. Hoping to finally shake this cold 100% today or tomorrow.

Thanks Shane!

OK, so that's why it didn't look like it would work well.

Thanks, I'll take a look at TP, that's where my IMLP plan is set up. I've primarily used Garmin Connect & Trainerroad up until now, one more site to maintain.

A quick talk about the CP curve so we can move onto other topics such as TSS. This should give you a better understanding of why we do the 5' and 20' test and why this test is actually better than the other test protocols. If this is too nerdy, let me know and we can stay away from nerdy stuff.

The test protocol Shane has chosen has a lot of science behind it, it allows you to see if you are more sprint/endurance and….it shows you the size of your battery. You will understand soon

This is not necessary to know, but it is interesting and what is cool is to be able to then read stuff like what Dr Skiba is doing.

BTW, his books are really good, simple to read and inexpensive. Highly recommended !!!

Here we go. We did that 5’ and 20’ tests and we looked at what our average WATTS were. We plugged them into a calculator to get our CP and we looked at a curve, which who knows how it was generated. You will soon know.

If you remember your high school physics, you know that

Energy = power * time

Power is measured in watts
Time in seconds
And Energy in Joules

Energy (Joules ) = Power (W) * Time (sec)....10 watts for 20 seconds is 200 Joules

So for example Ron did 271watts for 5 minutes
271watts * 5 minutes * 60 seconds/min = 81,300 Joules

In his 20 minute test he did 234 watts for 20 minutes
234watts * 20minutes * 60 seconds/min = 280,800 Joules

If you plotted these on a chart, with the X axis representing time and the Y axis representing energy (not watts) and drew a line between the two points, wonder what this would mean ?

Scientists have show that this straight line can be used to predict the amount of energy required for any time duration. Unlike the CP curve (power & time) it is a straight line. And straight lines are easy to represent with mathematical formulas

If you remember your high school math, the slope of a line is rise over run.
In this case Y axis is energy, X axis is time, so

Rise = 280,800J – 81300J = 199,500Joules
Run = 1200 seconds – 300 seconds = 900seconds

Slope = Rise/Run = 199500J / 900 seconds = 222 J/s
Remember a J/s is a watt so 222 watts

Hey, 222watts, that’s his CP !!!

Yes, the slope of the line, between two measure points will give your CP. No more need for the CP estimator, you can now figure it out in your head.

Now when we have two points we can also calculate the intercept.

Remember the equation of a line is

y=mx+b where m is the slope and b is the intercept (we said m, the slope is CP)

therefore

I will use the CP from above, and my data at 20min (280,000j, 1200seconds)
b = y – mx

b = 280,800j – 222 j/s * 1200s = 14,400joules or 14kj

This 14kj is what is known as his W’ or Anaerobic work capacity. It is the size of his battery.

So now, with all that info, read this, which I found fascinating stuff.
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=3819592;search_string=b...

You will now understand what "burning matches means" and how your efforts, CP and AWC affect your ability to do that final sprint in a road race.
You will understand that if Jason and I have the same CP and we ride for 1hour just above that CP when we come to sprint to the end, he will win, because he has a bigger battery (W')

Also, now that you know the equation that defines your CP curve/line you can go out and calculate the power you can maintain for 60min

Here again is my CP curve before and after I flipped the Y axis from Watts to Energy. BTW, Ron, you have a bigger battery than me. But then again battery size doesn't matter in LD triathlon.

Let me know if we over-geeked it. FYI, AWC = W'

The same CP curve we discussed before


Setting the Y axis to energy



Again, the white space between the red line and ride data is simply because I haven't done any hard rides lose to my CP for more than 20'


Edited by marcag 2014-01-16 10:05 AM

Out of curiosity, do you always aim for around 105% for the VO2 intervals?  Or as you progress through the program does the 105% stay for the longer (5min intervals), while shorter intervals (30-60sec) increase in intensity?  Where do you cap it?

Edited by GoFaster 2014-01-16 10:56 AM

For these, I put >105% because that is roughly the minimum effort that is required in order to elicit a training effect due to a level 5 effort. However, I typically (and we will progress to that point) will write "hard" for short intervals (as opposed to all out for even more intense efforts) and then as VO2max efforts become longer, we will target a floor like we did here.

My recommendation specifically to your question is that I would start close to the target wattage and build through the workout if you can. Then, review your numbers and you can use this to develop a target level for the next time you do the workout. Ideally you want to finish with either the last or second last of the repeats being your strongest so if you are able to build throughout, then I would encourage you to do so.

For example, if it said 5x3:00 >107%, 2:00 <60% but you know from your last workout that you were able to "comfortably" hold >110% for VO2 efforts, then you could start there and attempt to build.

Shane

Did the sweet spot workout this morning (I have a shift on Saturday, so saving the shorter VO2 workout for then). Challenging, but manageable.

I am having more trouble with balancing with the rest of my training. That's always the trick, isn't it? I'm trying to run 3 times a week, but feeling like I have to keep it super easy to manage these bike workouts. Also trying to do some strength training. For now I've decided to de-emphasize swimming. I am a comfortable swimmer. Last year with some lessons and a lot of technique work I improved my time from 1:55/ 100 to 1:40/100 in a 1000 TT, but since this year it will be mostly sprint triathlons for me, that just doesn't add up to much time saved for the amount of time invested. On the bike I think there is more "low-hanging fruit" time. But I miss swimming, especially the break it gives my legs.





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