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SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! (Page 26)
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 2014-07-11 12:35 PM in reply to: 0 |
 Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!!Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by ChrisM Originally posted by TankBoy Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by ChrisM Did my second ever track workout this morning. Couple weeks ago I did my first one, with 5 x 400M repeats. That was hard, but it was OK. Today did 4 x 800M repeats. Oh my.... I tend to play games during some harder workouts in order to get through. In hard swim sets, I usually calculate in my head where I am and what I have left, if we're doing 5 x 200s, at the 100 mark of the 3d 200 "I'm halfway there." Seems to work in swimming. FTP tests, I can safely say at 10:01, "less than that to go!" That doesn't seem to work so well for me on the track. I kept starting to think at the first 200, "Ok, 1/4 of the way there." Or I'd try "OK, only 4 straights and 4 curves, only 2 straights left." But that seemed to just make it harder. My form started to suffer, i slowed the pace a bit. I found I had to focus on exactly where I was and on every step and to concentrate on the pace I was holding. The more I thought about the future, the harder it got (well, except for the last turn).. This just me? I was thinking maybe because I dont have that track background or a huge running base to confidently rely on. I was happy though as I hit all the intervals given to me. And then shuffled my way home. 800s are tough. Well shoot, 400s are tough too. Every time I do a workout involving a different distance of interval I have an incredible appreciation for competitors at that distance. All the 800s runners I know actually say a positive split is pretty much the standard (granted we are talking a second.) You go all out that first lap then hang on in the second. So, you are right on track But honestly, I don't really do what you do but I know what you are saying. When things get hard rather than focusing on the future, or the pace, focus on maintaining that form because ultimately as hard as it 'seems' it's going to make you run for efficiently. Chris - Adrienne will have a better idea if this is really true, but I remember a while back reading an article about different athletic events, and how some of them wee interesting because they are designed around what hum as are spec'd out to do, while others are just the opposite. I can't remember all of the examples, but I do recall that the 800 was specifically talked about quite a bit as an example of the latter. According to that article there are natural 400 runners and natural milers, but the 800 existed in this boundary area where there is a lot of physiological crossover that occurs. As such you evidently get quarter milers moving up and milers moving down to become 800 runners, and it is extremely difficult for both, and lends itself to very divergent strategies for running the distance. For me 800s are simply awful, but 1200s are DREADFUL. I also kinda feel the same way about the 15k distance - extremely difficult to race well for me. At any rate, as others have said they will get (slightly) better as you learn how to pace them out through practice. In the meantime I might suggest that next time you have to run them and the going gets a little rough you actually think FURTHER out in to the future, say to Sunday August 9th at approximately 11:39am CDT. Imagine the PURELY HYPOTHETICAL situation of hearing a friend's footsteps coming up behind you right at the four-miles-into-a-10k mark and asking, "Hey Chris, how you feeling?" 800s are not only hard, take them seriously and do them right and they will make YOU hard on race day.
LOL. All's I have to do is hold you off for two more miles?? psshh no worries. Interesting stuff above. I'm a pretty good student, and do -- or, overdo -- pretty much what my coach tells me. My masters coach said if he wrote down stand on your head in the middle of a set of 50s, I'd probably do it. So while I had the option for 3 or 4, and pace was 7:xx to 7:xx + 10, i did 4 a sub 7:xx. Well, in that case I would bet that your workout got harder not because of the way you mentally break up the sections but because you were running 10+ seconds too fast lol! I'd do the workouts as they are written unless you have a reason to believe your coach is wrong. Save the overachieving for the races!
To clarify When I say sub 7:XX, I mean by two seconds (although yes, the planned pace was 7:20-7:30 a mile, but that's too much math to figure out what the difference is supposed to be, so i just focused on the lower number, i think that's 3:40/800 to .... i dont' even know LOL). For example, my 800s were at a 1:50 /400 pace (which I think is 7:20..... told you it was slow), so 3:40 for the 800, I was coming in at 3:36-8. But it's not that I am intentionally running too fast (by the above I really meant if given the option of 3-4, or 6-8, i always tend to do the higher number), I just don't know yet what pace is required to hit those targets. If I slow down, I tend to start slowing down, then I miss the interval. I seriously doubt that if I ran 3:43 for the 800 I'd find them any less difficult Edited by ChrisM 2014-07-11 12:38 PM |
| 2014-07-11 12:49 PM in reply to: ChrisM |
 Seattle | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by ChrisM Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by ChrisM Originally posted by TankBoy Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by ChrisM Did my second ever track workout this morning. Couple weeks ago I did my first one, with 5 x 400M repeats. That was hard, but it was OK. Today did 4 x 800M repeats. Oh my.... I tend to play games during some harder workouts in order to get through. In hard swim sets, I usually calculate in my head where I am and what I have left, if we're doing 5 x 200s, at the 100 mark of the 3d 200 "I'm halfway there." Seems to work in swimming. FTP tests, I can safely say at 10:01, "less than that to go!" That doesn't seem to work so well for me on the track. I kept starting to think at the first 200, "Ok, 1/4 of the way there." Or I'd try "OK, only 4 straights and 4 curves, only 2 straights left." But that seemed to just make it harder. My form started to suffer, i slowed the pace a bit. I found I had to focus on exactly where I was and on every step and to concentrate on the pace I was holding. The more I thought about the future, the harder it got (well, except for the last turn).. This just me? I was thinking maybe because I dont have that track background or a huge running base to confidently rely on. I was happy though as I hit all the intervals given to me. And then shuffled my way home. 800s are tough. Well shoot, 400s are tough too. Every time I do a workout involving a different distance of interval I have an incredible appreciation for competitors at that distance. All the 800s runners I know actually say a positive split is pretty much the standard (granted we are talking a second.) You go all out that first lap then hang on in the second. So, you are right on track But honestly, I don't really do what you do but I know what you are saying. When things get hard rather than focusing on the future, or the pace, focus on maintaining that form because ultimately as hard as it 'seems' it's going to make you run for efficiently. Chris - Adrienne will have a better idea if this is really true, but I remember a while back reading an article about different athletic events, and how some of them wee interesting because they are designed around what hum as are spec'd out to do, while others are just the opposite. I can't remember all of the examples, but I do recall that the 800 was specifically talked about quite a bit as an example of the latter. According to that article there are natural 400 runners and natural milers, but the 800 existed in this boundary area where there is a lot of physiological crossover that occurs. As such you evidently get quarter milers moving up and milers moving down to become 800 runners, and it is extremely difficult for both, and lends itself to very divergent strategies for running the distance. For me 800s are simply awful, but 1200s are DREADFUL. I also kinda feel the same way about the 15k distance - extremely difficult to race well for me. At any rate, as others have said they will get (slightly) better as you learn how to pace them out through practice. In the meantime I might suggest that next time you have to run them and the going gets a little rough you actually think FURTHER out in to the future, say to Sunday August 9th at approximately 11:39am CDT. Imagine the PURELY HYPOTHETICAL situation of hearing a friend's footsteps coming up behind you right at the four-miles-into-a-10k mark and asking, "Hey Chris, how you feeling?" 800s are not only hard, take them seriously and do them right and they will make YOU hard on race day.
LOL. All's I have to do is hold you off for two more miles?? psshh no worries. Interesting stuff above. I'm a pretty good student, and do -- or, overdo -- pretty much what my coach tells me. My masters coach said if he wrote down stand on your head in the middle of a set of 50s, I'd probably do it. So while I had the option for 3 or 4, and pace was 7:xx to 7:xx + 10, i did 4 a sub 7:xx. Well, in that case I would bet that your workout got harder not because of the way you mentally break up the sections but because you were running 10+ seconds too fast lol! I'd do the workouts as they are written unless you have a reason to believe your coach is wrong. Save the overachieving for the races!
To clarify When I say sub 7:XX, I mean by two seconds (although yes, the planned pace was 7:20-7:30 a mile, but that's too much math to figure out what the difference is supposed to be, so i just focused on the lower number, i think that's 3:40/800 to .... i dont' even know LOL). For example, my 800s were at a 1:50 /400 pace (which I think is 7:20..... told you it was slow), so 3:40 for the 800, I was coming in at 3:36-8. But it's not that I am intentionally running too fast (by the above I really meant if given the option of 3-4, or 6-8, i always tend to do the higher number), I just don't know yet what pace is required to hit those targets. If I slow down, I tend to start slowing down, then I miss the interval. I seriously doubt that if I ran 3:43 for the 800 I'd find them any less difficult Oh I hear you. I am also an adult onset runner. It just takes practice. I'd also not worry so much about the per mile pace. Just the time in seconds per 400. That's really all ya need to know |
| 2014-07-11 1:07 PM in reply to: Asalzwed |
Elite  7783     PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by Asalzwed Oh I hear you. I am also an adult onset runner. It just takes practice. I'd also not worry so much about the per mile pace. Just the time in seconds per 400. That's really all ya need to know Yeah, I get the adult onset runner thing too. What I found really helpful was to figure out the intermediate splits ahead of time. So for that 400 in 1:50... 1:50 = 110 seconds / 4 = 27.5 per 100m. So, at each 100, take a peek at the watch (have a screen setup with lap time) and as long as you are around the 27-28s mark (then 55, etc) you are on pace. I found 100s to be a bit short so I usually go by 200s. After doing that a few times I was able to calibrate my internal GPS fairly well. |
| 2014-07-11 1:28 PM in reply to: 0 |
| Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! . I'd also not worry so much about the per mile pace. Just the time in seconds per 400. That's really all ya need to know Well, that's the rub. At the 100/200/300 whatever mark, without pace, I don't know how long it will take me to get to 400, so I am just guessing. Pacing is a distinct skill. I don't use lap intervals on the watch on the track, i should probably start doing that. Otherwise I have to try to remember in the itnerval when I started, add the 400 split, double that, LOL. not happening since I can barely see straight.... eta and what he said ^^ Edited by ChrisM 2014-07-11 1:29 PM |
| 2014-07-11 2:05 PM in reply to: ChrisM |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by ChrisM I seriously doubt that if I ran 3:43 for the 800 I'd find them any less difficult Now you're just showing off... On the track I agree that trying to use pace is not much use (at these distances), just set your Garmin screen as Time for the interval and take it from there. I only break it up by 200's to know if I'm on pace (easier for me than Arend's 100's), so if I'm early or late on that 200 I know I need to change something for the latter part of the interval. |
| 2014-07-12 2:45 PM in reply to: Fred D |
Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Not sure if you all have been having the same BT issues I have been experiencing, but I have hardly been able to get the site to load for the last 24 hours? I keep getting timeout errors and wondering if the site is suffering from a DNS attack? Anyway - Salty and Neil - can't WAIT to hear how your races went yesterday and today - Neil I hope you found those feet you were looking for and Adrienne I am SURE you didn't come in DFL (no worries if you did though!) how was the heat? Did you manage to suffer through or melt as you feared? Ryan - The way your swimming and running are looking you are going to have a great day at Grand Haven - one of my brother-in-laws has done it a couple of times and says it is great race - I wish it worked around our Michigan travel summer travel schedule. And of course James and Fred, I know you guys are going to tear it up - it is great to see you both healthy coming into good form for the peak of the season. It is going to drive me crazy that I cannot track you - so make sure that you IMMEDIATELY get on BT at the finish line to let us know how you two finished out. James, why can't Stacy just live blog the whole thing??? ;^) Good luck to everyone racing - it looks like a big weekend for the SBR gang - anyone else mixing it up this weekend? |
| 2014-07-12 4:18 PM in reply to: TankBoy |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Getting onto the site has been ok, but loading workouts has been a bit dodgy. |
| 2014-07-12 4:29 PM in reply to: TankBoy |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! I haven't been on BT too much today but when I have it has been fine. I got in a short session each of swim, bike and run today. Went to the beach for the swim and got Tab to shoot some video as I've never really seen what I look like while swimming. I was just doing a nice easy cruise to loosen up for the race tomorrow. I felt like I was turning my arms over quicker than it looks in the video.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72fFHN8_qcE&feature=youtu.be To everyone else that is racing, good luck and I can't wait to hear about it! |
| 2014-07-12 5:35 PM in reply to: ChrisM |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by ChrisM . I'd also not worry so much about the per mile pace. Just the time in seconds per 400. That's really all ya need to know Well, that's the rub. At the 100/200/300 whatever mark, without pace, I don't know how long it will take me to get to 400, so I am just guessing. Pacing is a distinct skill. I don't use lap intervals on the watch on the track, i should probably start doing that. Otherwise I have to try to remember in the itnerval when I started, add the 400 split, double that, LOL. not happening since I can barely see straight.... eta and what he said ^^ Yeah, the running intervals can take a little practice. Also remember that it's a little interesting in that you normally don't want to go until you're completely buried. The fun part is pushing well both in the effort and the amount of them, but still having some left over. Figuring out what the right amount is takes some practice. From following what your coach has done in several different applications I would think he's building you up towards that point. As in having you run as hard as you're supposed to, but building up the number of intervals done over at least several workouts to help your body adapt to doing harder work and so that you can learn things like what's being discussed. 4 x 800 at your speed is enough to get some development out of and shouldn't kill you when run at the prescribed pace, but I also suspect you'll see more of them in later workouts. Keep working on what's been said about pacing! Not really all that different from how you learned to hit the 100's in swimming. Are you able to do that from the first one? I still have to guess at an effort I can sustain and hope it works out ok in the early going. After the first couple I can hit the rest at a rather consistent pace, but never know exactly what it's going to be on the first. |
| 2014-07-12 9:46 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Long story short - it wasn"t very pretty. I went 2:31:xx which is about 7min slower than last year. I think spotty training + vacation really caught up with me and I'm going to have to hope I find some consistency over the next 8 weeks or I'll be in trouble at Muskoka. Putting this way behind me quickly and looking forward. |
| 2014-07-13 1:05 PM in reply to: GoFaster |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! First overall (of 56) in my sprint today! RR to come but here's the short version. First out of the water by 20-30s. Had a screw-up on the bike where I thought I had missed a turn and turned around only to have been right in the first place - cost me about 45s according to my Garmin. Would have had the fastest bike split without that. Left T2 with about a 2:30 lead, ended up winning by 18 seconds. I was running scared. All 3 legs of the race were long - swim just a bit, bike was 22 km, run was 5.2 km. Total time 1:15:52 |
| 2014-07-13 2:24 PM in reply to: axteraa |
| Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Awesome job arend! Heard Fred won his AG and 9th overall. Not sure how James did. Neil, still a solid effort given the break |
| 2014-07-13 2:32 PM in reply to: GoFaster |
Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by GoFaster Long story short - it wasn"t very pretty. I went 2:31:xx which is about 7min slower than last year. I think spotty training + vacation really caught up with me and I'm going to have to hope I find some consistency over the next 8 weeks or I'll be in trouble at Muskoka. Putting this way behind me quickly and looking forward. Well, given the choice between having an awesome vacation and a PR at a race, I would pretty much ALWAYS rather have the great vacation. Now if it is Work that is getting in the way of training, well - that's another story.... |
| 2014-07-13 2:35 PM in reply to: axteraa |
Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Arend, sorry - didn't know you were racing today - PLEASE tell us it was a mass start and an out-and-back run course so that you knew they were coming for you!?!? If so you are going to be hurting for days! Great work today despite the hiccup on the bike - nice job keeping your sh*t together and very glad it didn't cost you the race. |
| 2014-07-13 2:37 PM in reply to: ChrisM |
Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by ChrisM ....Heard Fred won his AG and 9th overall.... Hoping that rumor is true! |
| 2014-07-13 2:47 PM in reply to: axteraa |
Master 2912 ...at home in The ATL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by axteraa I haven't been on BT too much today but when I have it has been fine. I got in a short session each of swim, bike and run today. Went to the beach for the swim and got Tab to shoot some video as I've never really seen what I look like while swimming. I was just doing a nice easy cruise to loosen up for the race tomorrow. I felt like I was turning my arms over quicker than it looks in the video.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72fFHN8_qcE&feature=youtu.be To everyone else that is racing, good luck and I can't wait to hear about it! Looks awesome, obviously Arend. You posted a video from a pool race a long time ago and I was surprised then as in this one to see how forward you seem to look, even when you are not sighting. From race results it doesn't appear to be slowing you down at all... (and do remember: this is from a guy whose all-out-hanging-on-the-edge-of-the-pool-deck-gasping-and-about-to-die-SCY-100 is 1:16, so don't mind me and carry on with what you are doing). |
| 2014-07-13 2:50 PM in reply to: TankBoy |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by TankBoy Arend, sorry - didn't know you were racing today - PLEASE tell us it was a mass start and an out-and-back run course so that you knew they were coming for you!?!? If so you are going to be hurting for days! Great work today despite the hiccup on the bike - nice job keeping your sh*t together and very glad it didn't cost you the race. Yup, mass start and an out and back run. I knew exactly where I stood in the race. The last KM is on a straight road so I could even look back in fear. |
| 2014-07-13 2:56 PM in reply to: TankBoy |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by TankBoy Originally posted by ChrisM ....Heard Fred won his AG and 9th overall.... Hoping that rumor is true! Facebook says it is! Great job Fred! |
| 2014-07-13 3:00 PM in reply to: TankBoy |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by TankBoy Originally posted by axteraa I haven't been on BT too much today but when I have it has been fine. I got in a short session each of swim, bike and run today. Went to the beach for the swim and got Tab to shoot some video as I've never really seen what I look like while swimming. I was just doing a nice easy cruise to loosen up for the race tomorrow. I felt like I was turning my arms over quicker than it looks in the video.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72fFHN8_qcE&feature=youtu.be To everyone else that is racing, good luck and I can't wait to hear about it! Looks awesome, obviously Arend. You posted a video from a pool race a long time ago and I was surprised then as in this one to see how forward you seem to look, even when you are not sighting. From race results it doesn't appear to be slowing you down at all... (and do remember: this is from a guy whose all-out-hanging-on-the-edge-of-the-pool-deck-gasping-and-about-to-die-SCY-100 is 1:16, so don't mind me and carry on with what you are doing). That's a habit from my swim days that I can't seem to shake. We had a coach that constantly drilled it into us that the water line should be on our foreheads just above the eyes. I'm pretty sure it was bad advice and I haven't been able to do anything about it. If I pay attention to it in the pool, I *feel* faster but when things get tough or in a race (or I don't think about it) then I go back to doing it. |
| 2014-07-13 5:32 PM in reply to: axteraa |
| Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Awesome job Fred. I won a road race today. Cat 4/5 34 and under. Basically 3 laps of a clockwise loop where you climb and ascend 1000' feet each lap over 15 miles...so around 4% during the climbs. First lap was pretty mellow...nobody wanted to do work, I instigated a 3 man break on the 2nd lap and got a really big gap, and on the third lap I was able to break away half way up the climb as I noticed the other two guys were fried. TT'd the last 5 miles and got to finish sitting up with a 45ish second lead. Super fun race as I had a guy dedicated to working for me and he delivered all the way up until I made the break, then didn't contribute to the chase as a good teammate would. I'm super happy and I have to say that my chances of getting back into triathlon seriously in the near future are not very good. |
| 2014-07-13 7:22 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Expert 1260 Norton Shores, MI | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Love all the awesome results flowing in.Swim was cancelled and 5k added due to rip currents.5k: 19:2740k: 1:03:4110k: 39:278th OA.They actually gave me a 2 minute penalty as my shoe popped off during dismount of my bike and did not go back and grab it.Regardless, really happy with my fitness progression this year. |
| 2014-07-13 7:25 PM in reply to: axteraa |
Expert 1260 Norton Shores, MI | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! Originally posted by axteraa I actually find I perform way better in that scenario. Had people on my heels today and really kept me focused to keep the hammer down.Originally posted by TankBoy Arend, sorry - didn't know you were racing today - PLEASE tell us it was a mass start and an out-and-back run course so that you knew they were coming for you!?!? If so you are going to be hurting for days! Great work today despite the hiccup on the bike - nice job keeping your sh*t together and very glad it didn't cost you the race. Yup, mass start and an out and back run. I knew exactly where I stood in the race. The last KM is on a straight road so I could even look back in fear. |
 2014-07-13 8:08 PM in reply to: rymac |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2014-07-13 11:35 PM in reply to: 0 |
| Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! No racing for me, just rode near 6 hrs, trying to get "lots". Most of it on the county MUP using the mountain bike. More evidence to it being time & effort as opposed to miles as this sure is pokey even compared to a basic road bike setup on gatorskins. Edited by brigby1 2014-07-13 11:35 PM |
| 2014-07-14 8:33 AM in reply to: Fred D |
| Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia ~~~~ Permanently OPEN!! A big congratulations to Fred 1st AG 9th overall. With a very strong bike and blistering 1:32 run. Big day for him  I finished 5:19 hr, 6th in age group (AG) out of 48 and 69th over all (OA) out of 643 finishers. No one in my AG went under 5hr, 5:04 won the AG.Swim was :33:44 min top swimmers :31:?? min. 1st AG in the top OA. Felt like a 45 min swim. Very rough water 3 ft swells with lots of chop. 48 people where pulled from the swim is what I think I heard.Bike was 2:47:?? 20.2mph avg. 30 miles of strong winds at 20-25mph. Really tough for me should have done better. Last 8 miles rain. Not sure was were I placed in the AG or OA but in top 10% I think.Run 1:53 @8:34 per mile average and was a good run for me. It was cool, the first 2 miles was tail wind and flat, then hills and the last 2 miles flat. I faded at 8miles.I heard just over 1000 started 643 finished. Tough day for the swim and bike. |
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