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Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. (Page 28)
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 2014-01-17 9:54 AM in reply to: marcag |
 20 Brampton, Ontario |  Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.Thanks Marc.. looking forward to see them.. Saturday night would b great as I will be leaving my place around 7am I was planning to do a work out around 5am,, I will wait and hope for the best : ) Cheers P |
| 2014-01-17 12:37 PM in reply to: Habs1969 |
1053  | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Workout #3 done- Sweet Spot. Not too bad, just got to get used to sitting on trainer that long. Goal for 12 x 4 was 238 watts. Went a little over at 242 watts (HR 138), 245 watts (HR 142), 248 watts (HR 145), and 250 watts (HR 148). But was pretty comfortable (besides for the sitting) with my HR in the 140s mostly. (SweetSpot1.png) Attachments ---------------- SweetSpot1.png (46KB - 4 downloads) |
| 2014-01-17 12:45 PM in reply to: RunningJoke |
190 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by RunningJoke This is fascinating. I may never get any work done again. Calculated my AWC and it was a measly 2400 joules (NOT kilojoules). That's 2.4 kJ. With only two tests, a very low estimate of AWC can be a symptom that the short duration test wasn't done to full capacity. The AWC/CP model only has two parameters so a "low" short duration test not only produces a low estimate of AWC, it produces an estimate of CP that will be too high. That is, you could be underestimating your AWC and overestimating your CP. If you re-do your short duration test (not that I'm suggesting this, that's your mentors' job, just saying that *if* you re-do your 5-minute test) and it's considerably higher, you'll see that the new estimate of AWC will increase and your CP will --> decrease <--. Don't freak out if that happens. A *rough* rule of thumb is that your watts/kg at threshold will be in the same ballpark as your running pace in meter/second, so if your estimated CP/kg is much higher than your running pace, that's a second clue that the short duration test could be off. |
| 2014-01-17 1:26 PM in reply to: RChung |
Elite 3779  Ontario | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Listen to this guy. ^^^^^^^^ To RChungs point, I think some people actually sandbag the 5min number a bit to help them overestimate their CP/FTP. Which makes no sense unless your posting your numbers for the ST crowd. |
| 2014-01-17 1:36 PM in reply to: GoFaster |
Veteran 1677 Houston, Texas | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by GoFaster Listen to this guy. ^^^^^^^^ To RChungs point, I think some people actually sandbag the 5min number a bit to help them overestimate their CP/FTP. Which makes no sense unless your posting your numbers for the ST crowd. Do you think people purposely sandbag their 5' tests to overestimate CP/FTP? I think my 5' test result was a little on the low side, but it certainly wasn't because I wanted an inflated CP! It was just that I suck at pacing them I guess some people might, but it would be way easier to just lie about their CP/FTP :P |
| 2014-01-17 1:54 PM in reply to: ligersandtions |
| 190 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by ligersandtions Do you think people purposely sandbag their 5' tests to overestimate CP/FTP? I think my 5' test result was a little on the low side, but it certainly wasn't because I wanted an inflated CP! It was just that I suck at pacing them I don't think people purposefully sandbag them, it's just that, as you say, it's hard to pace a short duration test if you don't have much experience at it, and when they see their CP they think "hey! that's nice!" and stop right there. The thing is, after you've been doing the tests for a while you get better at pacing the short test and you can see your CP decrease as a consequence. So the real moral of this story is not to freak out if that happens. |
| 2014-01-17 2:17 PM in reply to: RChung |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by RChung Originally posted by ligersandtions Do you think people purposely sandbag their 5' tests to overestimate CP/FTP? I think my 5' test result was a little on the low side, but it certainly wasn't because I wanted an inflated CP! It was just that I suck at pacing them I don't think people purposefully sandbag them, it's just that, as you say, it's hard to pace a short duration test if you don't have much experience at it, and when they see their CP they think "hey! that's nice!" and stop right there. The thing is, after you've been doing the tests for a while you get better at pacing the short test and you can see your CP decrease as a consequence. So the real moral of this story is not to freak out if that happens. Cool !!!!! Group, please meet Dr Chung. I don't have his bio, but what I do know is that is a very respected sports scientist, self declared data geek and avid cyclist. One of the things we can learn on these forums is who to listen to, and Dr Chung is definitely in that list. Later in the session we are going to learn about the Aerolab module in GC. Guess who provided the algorithms behind that stuff ? Dr Chung, meet the group :-). For most in this group training with power is brand new. As Shane explained early in the threads, one of the things people will learn is how to test. More than 1/2 the group had no idea of what their CP was and did their first test last week. I would say more than half the group expressed they probably could have done a bit better in one of the two tests and this influences their workouts. We could re-test but at one point we take the numbers work with them, see how they feel, refine, retest, repeat. Hopefully by understanding how these models work, they will be able to understand what their changes/improvements really mean. The only thing we hope for is people to come out stronger and more knowledgeable. Dr Chung, you are always more than welcome to drop by and share your experience. Now let's talk about CP/kg is n the same range as running stats......there is hope for me :-) Just kidding |
| 2014-01-17 2:49 PM in reply to: marcag |
Member 258 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Thank you Dr. Chung and EVERYONE for answering all my questions! It is awesome that I now know enough to fake my CP number if needed.  |
| 2014-01-17 2:57 PM in reply to: marcag |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL Gold member | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Wow lots of good info over the last few days, need to see what my battery is! On my way home now, nothing better than a FL to Seattle and return flights in 3.5 days. Will get in Wk1#3 workout over the weekend to spin the legs back up and then hit the wk 2 workouts next week to get back on track. |
| 2014-01-17 3:11 PM in reply to: marcag |
| 190 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by marcag Group, please meet Dr Chung. I don't have his bio, but what I do know is that is a very respected sports scientist, self declared data geek and avid cyclist. Um, thanks, but I'm not a sports scientist. By training I'm a theoretical mathematical demographer -- but when you're a theoretical mathematical demographer it's good to have a Plan B and I was bad a welding so I've had to learn some applied analytical techniques. As Shane explained early in the threads, one of the things people will learn is how to test. More than 1/2 the group had no idea of what their CP was and did their first test last week. I would say more than half the group expressed they probably could have done a bit better in one of the two tests and this influences their workouts. We could re-test but at one point we take the numbers work with them, see how they feel, refine, retest, repeat. Hopefully by understanding how these models work, they will be able to understand what their changes/improvements really mean. Yes, that's why I don't think that it's really critical at this point for people to nail down their AWC or CP. As time goes on they'll collect more data and their estimates of their capacities will become more refined. I was just alerting people that if they do appear to have low AWC it could be a result of a poor short duration test, and as they get more experience in testing not to get freaked out if it appears their CP decreases. The "watts/kg is in the ballpark of running pace in m/s" rule of thumb can be kind of handy as a reality check. |
| 2014-01-17 3:32 PM in reply to: RChung |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by RChung Originally posted by ligersandtions Do you think people purposely sandbag their 5' tests to overestimate CP/FTP? I think my 5' test result was a little on the low side, but it certainly wasn't because I wanted an inflated CP! It was just that I suck at pacing them I don't think people purposefully sandbag them, it's just that, as you say, it's hard to pace a short duration test if you don't have much experience at it, and when they see their CP they think "hey! that's nice!" and stop right there. The thing is, after you've been doing the tests for a while you get better at pacing the short test and you can see your CP decrease as a consequence. So the real moral of this story is not to freak out if that happens. I speak from personal experience a little on this one. My primary goal behind suffering on the trainer throughout the winter is to raise my CP. As a result, it becomes a bit of a game as you are chasing numbers - and you always want that number to improve. So I know that if my 20min test result improves, but my 5min number doesn't really move, I'll see that much higher CP = more improvement / validation of my training. I kill myself on these tests, but I do wonder sometimes if I have maybe just a little more to give on the 5min tests. So maybe sandbagging was the wrong word, but I sometimes question my resolve to hurt myself just a little more during those tests. |
| 2014-01-17 3:35 PM in reply to: RChung |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by RChung Originally posted by marcag Group, please meet Dr Chung. I don't have his bio, but what I do know is that is a very respected sports scientist, self declared data geek and avid cyclist. Um, thanks, but I'm not a sports scientist. By training I'm a theoretical mathematical demographer -- but when you're a theoretical mathematical demographer it's good to have a Plan B and I was bad a welding so I've had to learn some applied analytical techniques. I am really sorry about that. You can be part of our group if you post a bio :-) Just kidding, you are welcome here. And if in Montreal visiting a friend of yours, I buy the beers |
| 2014-01-17 4:11 PM in reply to: marcag |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. I just did VO2Max 1 I slightly raised the 30' intervals to 112% and I found the workout just fine. Not too hard. I will probably do a bit harder next time. I will do Sweetspot 1 on Sunday It would be nice to hear if anyone found the week too heavy or too light |
| 2014-01-17 4:26 PM in reply to: 0 |
Member 117 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Okay! I am finally caught up! Now I should be able to follow along with everyone else. Hooray! Here's the file for my 5' FTP test. I felt like I could have gone MAYBE slightly harder on both the 5' and 20' tests, but I was unsure about pacing. I ended up with 159 W for my 5' test and 125 W for my 20' test. Not great numbers, but I'm not a strong cyclist, and I'm looking forward to seeing them go up! Thanks again Shane and Marc! You guys are great, and I am SO happy to be a part of this group. It's incredibly helpful. EDIT: Apparently I'm a sprinter. Who knew? Edited by ReginaPhalange72 2014-01-17 4:33 PM Attachments ---------------- Sarah first 5 min FTP test.csv (115KB - 3 downloads) |
| 2014-01-17 4:58 PM in reply to: ReginaPhalange72 |
Member 117 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. So in going back and plugging in my numbers, here's what I ended up with: 20' test: 125 W 5' test: 159 W Puts me in group 3 - sprinters (surprise!) FTP: 119 W CP: 114 W AWC: 13.6 kJ Does it make sense that my FTP is higher than my CP? That seems odd. |
| 2014-01-17 5:03 PM in reply to: ReginaPhalange72 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by ReginaPhalange72 So in going back and plugging in my numbers, here's what I ended up with: 20' test: 125 W 5' test: 159 W Puts me in group 3 - sprinters (surprise!) FTP: 119 W CP: 114 W AWC: 13.6 kJ Does it make sense that my FTP is higher than my CP? That seems odd. That is normal. CP is the power you can hold "for a very long time", FTP is 60min. "Very long time" is longer than 60min :-) Very normal. Where did you get the FTP number ? |
| 2014-01-17 5:07 PM in reply to: marcag |
| Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by ReginaPhalange72 So in going back and plugging in my numbers, here's what I ended up with: 20' test: 125 W 5' test: 159 W Puts me in group 3 - sprinters (surprise!) FTP: 119 W CP: 114 W AWC: 13.6 kJ Does it make sense that my FTP is higher than my CP? That seems odd. That is normal. CP is the power you can hold "for a very long time", FTP is 60min. "Very long time" is longer than 60min :-) Very normal. Where did you get the FTP number ? I think it's just 95% of 125 |
| 2014-01-17 5:09 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Member 117 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by ReginaPhalange72 So in going back and plugging in my numbers, here's what I ended up with: 20' test: 125 W 5' test: 159 W Puts me in group 3 - sprinters (surprise!) FTP: 119 W CP: 114 W AWC: 13.6 kJ Does it make sense that my FTP is higher than my CP? That seems odd. That is normal. CP is the power you can hold "for a very long time", FTP is 60min. "Very long time" is longer than 60min :-) Very normal. Where did you get the FTP number ? I think it's just 95% of 125 Yep. This. 125* 0.95 = 119 (well, 118 and change, but I rounded) Makes sense. I think I had that backwards in my head. |
| 2014-01-17 5:25 PM in reply to: ReginaPhalange72 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by ReginaPhalange72 Yep. This. 125* 0.95 = 119 (well, 118 and change, but I rounded) We don't do FTP = 95%. That's for people that can't do slopes and intercepts as mental math :-) Just kidding. |
| 2014-01-17 7:17 PM in reply to: marcag |
Member 258 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. If you want to reality check your AWC with your running pace in m/s, what pace do you use? Your 5K pace? 10K? Jaime |
| 2014-01-17 7:41 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by RunningJoke If you want to reality check your AWC with your running pace in m/s, what pace do you use? Your 5K pace? 10K? Jaime I believe around 1hr, threshold pace. Somewhere between your 10k and 15k pace. I can tell you that if so, it's off for me. I get better running numbers. But I believe I have great running efficiency Edited by marcag 2014-01-17 7:48 PM |
| 2014-01-17 7:54 PM in reply to: marcag |
Veteran 441 Maine | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Workout 3 for this week is in the books, WK2-SWE-1. That was a good one. It took a little longer for me to loosen up tonight, limited sleep the last couple of nights and I did a few running intervals yesterday. That 4th 12 min interval was tough but still felt good and I had enough in the tank to push the 30s intervals at the end a little. Attachments ---------------- cdkayak-WK2-SWE-1.csv (207KB - 4 downloads) |
| 2014-01-17 7:57 PM in reply to: marcag |
Veteran 441 Maine | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Some great information over the last couple of pages. Thanks for all the explanations! |
| 2014-01-17 8:13 PM in reply to: cdkayak |
Member 117 Boulder, Colorado | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. This is great. I'm completely geeking out over here with all these numbers. Thanks for all the explanations! |
| 2014-01-17 8:30 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 243 Lincoln, Nebraska | Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. Originally posted by marcag I just did VO2Max 1 I slightly raised the 30' intervals to 112% and I found the workout just fine. Not too hard. I will probably do a bit harder next time. I will do Sweetspot 1 on Sunday It would be nice to hear if anyone found the week too heavy or too light So far on the easy side. Since I raised the effort (I plugged in a higher FTP and upped it to 105%) before my VO2 it felt harder than Threshold, but still on the easy side. One workout left (sweet spot) before I know for sure how to classify the week. Plus I've been tweaking my bike fit with every single ride (new bike) and that helps my comfort, which helps my riding. (Edited to add this sentence). Edited by crissy_jo 2014-01-17 8:31 PM |
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