16 months, still suck! (Page 3)

Another perspective.  Ultimately, you are only competing with yourself.  Could you do the workouts you do now a year ago?  Although the time was a bit slower this time, did you feel stronger this time than last time?  If the answer is yes, I think you are doing fine. 

There may be ways you can train more effectively, and you could look into them, but unfortunately,one cannot really control how one does relatively to everyone else. 

Do some sprint tri's, that's what I did.  I wasn't TOO overweight but when I lost 50 lbs my first year "off the couch", which began just 5 years ago, I then did just sprints my first two seasons.  Had a little speed in me then went longer.  I think what helped me is I didn't overthink things. I STILL don't know what all this "zone" talk is.  I try to bike lots, mostly hard, run lots, mostly easy and swim lots, mostly hard, sometimes medium, cool down easy.

When I ride 30 or less miles I go hard the whole friggin' way, meaning I don't worry too much about pace I can spin home the last few miles if my legs are toast.  I think that's what's helped me the most.

Some of your post I could have written!  You do NOT suck - you have done two HIM. My HIM before my debut IM I too was 8 hours.  My goals for IM were simple (a bit like you) 1.  Make it to the start line  2.  Make each of the cut offs  3.  Make it to the finish line and 4.  Have fun. I achieved all of those goals with over half an hour to spare at the end - very happy with that.  I finished, I had fun and was so surprised that yes... I am doing it again!  So an even with an 8 hr HIM you can do it!  With the benefit of hindsight I know I could have gone harder on the bike, but didnt want to go too hard on the first lap and blow myself out and not make the second lap.  Lesson learned.  My goal for 2014 IM will be to be under 16 hours.. so 15 something and I will be stoked! 

What ever you do - enjoy your IM. 

This is a really interesting thread- I think lots of useful advice for me and probably many others.

I'd also suggest you do some small, local sprints and possibly Olys, not just to work on speed but because you'll probably place much higher in those.

I was recently talking to a runner friend of mine about how it's a little frustrating that I'm in the bottom 1/3 when I do a HM or 10k.  I do know I'm a slow runner but esp in my yearly HM I'm quite near the bottom.  He pointed out that my HM pace would put me MOP for your average weekend 5k, because those draw in all kinds of people; HMs only draw in people with the dedication to train for a HM, and they're usually fast (relatively speaking).

Same thing happens with triathlons.  Seriously, some to Pennsylvania and do some local tris- my average times in a sprint are not a whole lot faster than you HIM times (though that is on hills and crappy roads) and I'm usually MOP in the small tris I do, and always go home with some hardware, often by default, buy hey.  Whereas HIM and IM only draw people who are at least pretty good at SBR.

Long story short- if you don't want to be last, race against slower people.   It sounds dumb but it is fun to come in ahead of lots of others, and it might be the boost you need.

1. You don't suck.

2. I don't mean to sound rude or discouraging, but you should be worried about the IM cutoffs. The rule of thumb is that your IM time is double your HIM time plus an hour. For me - and a lot of other people - it's plus 2 hours. Based on your recent HIM, that's a 17-18 hour IM. Are you okay DNFing if you don't make the cutoffs?

Really all you can control is the training.  The race times are the consequence of training and genetics. You are doing great on training.  I sympathize with not getting farther up on the results page.  I have been at this stuff for 32 years with much the same success.  I think your successes in fitness and weight control are huge rewards for your training efforts and completely validate your training.

But, if fitness is not enough and you really need that competitive reward, you could drop down and participate in some shorter races.  You might find the athletes there are a bit easier competition than at the half and full IM distances.  Use your experience and do your transitions and pacing perfectly.  I predict you come home strong passing people right and left on the run.  It will feel great.  Plus, it will be some speed work that might help your long distance racing.

PS.  I am a big fan of yours for your success in turning your fitness around and for your posts. 

and .. one more idea:

You mentioned you do a trainer group session. That's great but there is one problem: Nobody but you pushes the pace, on the treadmil or on the trainer everyone can keep up. Consider riding and running outside in a group, with people who can set a pace and make you push harder.

The other day I was running a 10K training, we were doing 4:45min/km and at around 6K I asked if this was his normal pace, and he said no, this was actually an easy pace, he usually did 4:30 ... so I told him I'm usually around 5:15, or 5:00 on a good day. But I kept up, pushed harder and had a great run.

Sure hope it is not windy for your IM

Well, people tend to push themselves harder when others are around, even when stationary. If someone looks like they're doing good or working hard, there is a tendency to work a little harder just to keep up. To not be the weak one even though no one is actually going anywhere.

Some of these groups may have metrics displayed, not just peeking at your neighbors setting, but up on a screen for all to see. Then you really have something to chase after.

If you're not getting the results you want, and your coach doesn't see the need to change anything, you seriously need to think about getting a new coach.

Right.

You can look up the weather/ winds/ water temp/ etc. from previous races (you're doing CdA, right?) but anything can happen. It's weather. IMCOZ was so freaking windy that people there who had raced Kona said they were like Kona winds.

It's your training and your coach, but if I was in your position, I'd be looking for coaching elsewhere. JMHO, of course.

Is your goal to "just make the cutoffs"? 

I'm not sure how your conversation with your coach went.  If it was something like, "I'm worried that my training and previous race times are not in line with me being able to finish IM CdA -- should we make some changes?", maybe the response was fine.

If, however, your conversation went more like, "I'm not happy with the (lack of) progress I'm making at this point and I feel like we need to make some changes so I can get to the next level" and the response was to make no changes, I'm with djastroman -- I'd be looking for a different coach.

Ultimately, it's up to you.  But if you want to improve, you're going to have to change something.

I think that she is looking for excuses here.  I wasn't on the course, but looking at the reported weather from weatherunderground (http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KLAS/2013/4/20/DailyHistory.html), The wind wasn't anywhere need a steady 15 - 20 (looks like ~7-10 mph out of the North).  If this is the case, then the wind would have helped for the majority of the course as it switches from S/SE early in the day to N around midday (right in the middle of the bike leg).

I think that the coach isn't doing her right in an unwillingness to change and she is not willing to change anything.  Both of these are fine if everyone is happy with the status quo.  If not, then something has to give.

BTW - The wind in CDA for the past 3 years has been ~10-15mph out of the SW.  So ~half the bike will be into a headwind.

I'd like to look more closely at bike speed.   I think you have a road or tri bike, yes? Your bike times (both training and racing) are very slow for someone who trains as much as you do and has a decent bike.   I only looked at the last four weeks of your training schedule and saw this consistently, regardless of day/length of ride.   So my question is why?  Do you have a problem with your glute muscles that we should know about?  Some physical imbalance?

When you're training, are you able to bike at 16 mph or faster, even for a little bit?  How about 18?  What does it feel like?  Do you feel out of control?  Do you get so winded you have to stop?  Or, are you not pushing yourself there because you're told to stay in a certain zone?  CAN you bike faster?

Cadence aside (although very strange red flag, I agree) I am perplexed by the bike speed.   

On race day there will be many factors, as you know.  Wind, you have to stop at the bathroom, you drop your nutrition and have to turn around, etc, etc.   You cannot hang your hat on the hope that you will 1) magically find an extra mph, and 2) maintain it for 112 miles.    If your swim is about 2 hours (if all goes perfectly...), you will only have about 8.5 hours for the Ironman bike (and less time if you just make the swim cut off).  That's an average of 13.18 mph and that includes every stop at the potty, special needs, etc.  So, you will actually have to be riding at 14+ miles per hour on average at least.  How is that ever going to happen?  What is going to change between now and then?

You need to build the necessary strength to push the pedals at a decent cadence in a decent gear.  How will the coach help you do that?

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KBVU/2013/4/20/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Boulder+City&req_state=NV&req_statename=Nevada

7:40-Noon.

^^ absolutely this is the question of the day.  Deb, when I look at your cycling workouts in your logs, I mostly see lots of what I would consider long, slow Z1 rides.  Your average HR is many times in the 110-130 range.  The times I see where your speed is a bit higher, your avg HR is also a bit higher.  There is a reason for that.  Even on 3/19, where your workout was entitled "Trainer Intervals", your avg HR was 119.  Honestly, that's barely even my HR when warming up.

I know everyone's HR is different and hard to compare, but the 110-130 range is really low in my opinion.  If you're really putting forth a good interval effort on the bike, I would expect to see avg HRs in the 150-160 range or more, and max HRs in the 170s.  Even on longish Z2 rides, my avg HR is usually in the mid-high 140s.  It honestly looks like you are just riding in Z1 all the time.

If you want to get faster on the bike, you have to train like a beast.  Seriously, just put it all out there and ride till your legs burn so bad they are begging to stop.  Then keep riding a bit longer.  Long slow rides will get you nothing but slow times.  If your coach doesn't understand this, I'm baffled.

Of course its hard to determine all this just by looking at your logs.  That's just what I took from it.  But if you want to get better on the bike, I would seriously consider getting a power meter and learning how to train by power.  Find your FTP and train according to it.  It WILL work if you put in the honest effort.

ETA:  honestly, I'm honestly sorry for all the times i honestly used the word "honest"  

The cutoffs are cumulative, so the swim cutoff is 2:20, then bike cutoff is 10:30 from the start of the race.  I think that's normal for most IMs in the U.S. at least.  If you swim above average, you have more leeway on the bike.