Do you just have "it" or not? (Page 3)

[sigh]Not to criticize you, but this is why you will probably never reach that 7 minute mile.  Because you don't believe you can.[/sigh]

If you trained smart and put in the miles, you could ....... period.  (Unless there is some physical disability that is stopping you).  Have you ever heard a good coach say that you can't do something????

Growing up I played basketball.  I played all the time and work hard.  I ended up playing 1 year JV DIII.  I don't think it would have matter what I did I could not have played D1 or made the NBA.  My brother on the other hand (same mom and dad) was a great athlete.  He is my HS leading all-time scorer and played DIII ball and scored over 1,000 points but probably could not have played D1 either because neither of us could jump or are fast.  You can fake your way DIII not D1.  Just like I think you can fake your way to a decent finish in Tri's just not get to "elite"status and I think that is what most people are talking about when they say it.  Not qualifying for this or that race or even placing, but consistantly placing in is a different story.  With me I don't think it is mental.  I think I am extremely mentally strong, but I know my physical limitations.

Thanks for the input and encouragement though.

Here's my take on this. If you have "it" you can train and get fast. If you don't have "it" you can train more and longer and get fast. I do believe that genetics play a part of it, but I think lack of natural ability can be overcome with the appropriate amount of hard work. I do think, however, that the law of diminishing returns applies here. I've seen vast improvements on my times with lots of hard work, though the improvements now are coming in smaller and smaller increments.

The bonus of those born with "it" lies in their ability to see results with less amount of work than those of us without it. Not saying they don't work- I'm just saying I'd have to put in 15 hour weeks to get to the same point as someone else with "it" who puts in less time.

We all have different gifts. My gift is my ability to push myself, though I might have preferred the gift of foot speed, LOL.

Let me say that I believe in the "It" philosophy.  I played sports throughout my life. I was never the fastest, but I was one of the smartest and my hand/eyes /foot skills were second to none due to practice.  But when I got to the college levels, everyone elses skills were just as good but they were fast.  When I started this 4 years ago, I had been riding very regularly.  I had done my work putting in 250 mile cycling weeks.  And I had come to the realization that I could ride 22 Mph for a century, but the people who win races are able to ride 24-25 mph.  When I started I ran a 10-11 min mile.  Now I can run sub 8.  But the people who win will run sub 6 min miles.  The truth is that some people have the genetic make-up to move fast.  Speed is one thing that the best skills will not overcome.  I have placed in the top 10 in my age group.  It was a smaller race with about 21 people in my age group.  I was really excited, until I saw that the 1-5 place people had smoked me by up to 15 minutes in a sprint race.  Sorry, but making up 15 minutes in an hour long race is tough.  I had finished in 1:08, not gonna make 53 minutes.

I guess what I'm saying is some people have "IT", I don't.  So now my training is a little less intense, family comes first and I love my experiences at every race.  If you do "YOUR" best, enjoy yourself, enjoy racing, you have won...

P.S.  I'm still getting faster, only now I workout for me (and fun) and am not a slave to numbers.  "Fitness Rocks"

Thank you.  That's what I'm saying.  Maybe I need to bullet point it...

(a) I love training, I'm as consistent as my life will allow, and I'll fight to improve until the day I can't lace 'em up anymore.  I am NOT NEGATIVE on my abilities and if I see evidence of sniffing a BQ (like a sub 4:00 mary ala Daremo) trust me, I'll go for it with everything I can.

(b) Daremo, jeepfleeb, I've watched you.  You have "it" whether you know it or not.  You don't get to be a competitive bike racer without some of "it".  Jeep, you went from overweight/out of shape to competitive in a fairly short period of time on a greuling schedule that would leave most of us injured, frankly.  Your body allows you to pound itself.  You have some of "it."

(c) That being said, I have NEVER, EVER stated that I work anywhere near as hard as the elites on BT, the top performers in my local tri's, or anywhere else.  And I don't deny that Daremo, jeepfleeb, jszat and others that appear now to have "it" may have just gotten it through years of hard work throughout their youth.  My training is so full of holes as compared to elite you can call me swiss cheese if you want.

(d) I draw from 2 people I know, not on BT, that started recently from scratch, no particular athletic background in one case, and simply not that hard a worker in another.  They can both smoke my azz.  I am working my incremental improvements and may one day challenge them.  I cannot wait for that day.  But, I know the background of these people, and I know their current work.  There's no other explanation besides natural talent, or "it".

(e) Somebody posted a fairly MOP pace that would get you Kona qualified.  I'll be honest, I mentioned Kona without knowing exactly what it took to get there.  I thought it was top-3 finisher in the major age groups at qualifying tri's.  If there's tri's out there where an 8:30 run pace will get you top-3, then I'm competing in the wrong events.  Or, my understanding of qualifying is way off, and I retract the statement that I'll never qualify for Kona.

Well said.  I'm love being a slave to the numbers though, despite the statements that some view as self-defeating.  Again, I'll keep looking to improve, and maybe one day I'll look up and see sub-6:30 paces on long runs. 

I agree.  My 7yo son and his best friend are great examples of this.  They are both athletic, play the same sports, play together a lot, same classroom at school, etc.  Very similar lives and upbringings (I am also the boys' soccer coach for 2 years now).  Yet, Nik is way faster than my son Jack.  Nik won the mile fun run at his school about a month ago for his grade and it was the first time he's ever run a mile at one time in his life.  He took off at the start and ran, never needing to stop for rest.  Finished in about 7:30.  I know there are kids his age who run faster, but they practice it.  No one in his family is a runner, although his dad played soccer.  He has a natural speed that is incredible.  I don't think it would take much training to get him to drop some serious time off that mile pace.  If we fast forward 15 years and make them triathletes training at a high level, I have a hard time believing that Jack could be competitive with Nik given the natural advantage Nik seems to have now.

Most of endurance sports is a mental thing.  If you tell yourself you can't, you won't.  This is something I've been battling since I stopped road racing bikes back in '98.  I'd drop out of every race because after a few laps I'd be falling off the back and working too hard to keep up, so I'd mentally lose it and then throw in the towel.  We had that thread about why we do this and what we want out of it a year or so ago and I posted about those "demons" that weould have me drop out of a race.  I am still fighting them, but I have not quit a race since the first marathon that I mentioned a few posts ago.

I agree that everyone has some of "it" in them.  And most people here will not ever make it to the elite level, because people typically "peak" in their early to mid thirties for their ultimate endurance ability.  But we're talkign professional level there!  There are many people who get into the sport (or one of the individual ones) and in a few years become FOP and AG winners consistently, even though they started late in life.  But how many people here actually have the ambitions and life goal to be a professional athlete??  Very few, but the ones that do certainly don't say they "can't."

The reality is that not everyone can train themselves to the level where they can run a 5 flat, let alone sustain that over any longer period.  But anyone physically able CAN train to the level where they can run in the low 6's (for men) or low 7's (for women), and with consistency.  Same with cycling.

Mental aspect seems to be a big limiter for beginners.  Now if someone had logs that showed 15 hours a week of solid training and had coaches and good nutrition, etc. etc. and THEN posted that they could only get to a certain level even after years of trying, THEN you could say that their genetics are a limiter.

I put out some of our own as great examples of what you can do if you put your mind to it - KathyG, Oliveview, hangloose, Spokes, and on and on ................

Please direct me to one shred of objective evidence that supports this statement.

No one's saying everyone can be the "best".  Or just train hard and you too can win the Tour.  We're basically talking about moving towards a "competitive" level with your AG (again, not necessarily winning).

Most people on BT are no where close to 15-20 hours and it wouldn't take anything near that dramatic to have them see substantial improvements.  There are many valid reasons people may choose not to put in the work necessary to make these improvements.  Not having "it" is not one of them.

Look in the mirror my friend .... and then look at the race results of the races you participate in and ask those people how long they have been at it and how hard they work.

Yes, at a certain point age becomes a factor as to how "fast" people can go.

But I want someone to tell the 62 year old guy that beat me in the 5k by around :30 or so back in Nov. of '05 that he shouldn't be running that fast because he's too old ........

Rick - for the most part I agree with you except for one thing.  I think the OP was referring to getting to that elite club.  There's a big diff between going from running 12 min miles to 7.5 min miles and going from 7.5 to 5 or 5.5 min miles (for distances of at least 5-10K).  I think that's where you run into the athletes that have both the will and the genetics, IMO.

No.  The OP was talking about the top 10% of his AG. 

I'll agree that getting to top of that level is probably a 50/50 genetic vs. work ethic debate.  But someone can still get to that level if they are dedicated and start early.

That is a whole different issue where we would be talking about someone starting young and nurturing talent.  The Prefontaine's, Salazar's, Phelps, Woods and Armstrongs of the world DID start crazy young and had their talents nurtured, which is why they got to the level they were.  But for every one of them, there are 100 athletes who were not as naturally gifted that busted their azz and got almost to the same level, and that are competitive at the elite level.

I'll concede this point ..... that if one did not start in their teens/twenties with some form of endurance or sport that it will be a lot harder to get to that elite level.  but I go back to my other statement ...... how many here have that as a life goal??  Only a few at best .......

I am a firm believer that hard work can get you really close to what you want.  To get to the professional elite level, I think genetics has something to do with it (like 15%), but the rest is hard work.  In regards to getting in the top 10% of a/g or overall, I think it's about hard work.  'It' allows you to get there easier and with slightly less hours.

Here is a personal example.  In HS and college, I was on the cross country team.  I was the 4th or 5th guy.  The guy that was good enough for the team, but just because they needed the points.  I worked hard in practice but was never better than 4th on the team.  Same in college.  Swimming was horrible.  I did my first sprint tri (400 meters) and walked the second half.  Luckily it was in a shallow lake.  Biking, I got dropped within 15 miles, then 20 miles, etc. I worked hard at trying to stay with the pack.

Now, after 2 yrs of hard work and concentrated training, I'm in the top 5% overall, took my best 100m time from 1:45 all out to 1:16 at the end of practice Tuesday and I challenge the sprint at the end of our Sunday roadie rides. 

So yes, it can be done.  You just have to train properly and go after it.  It's a choice.  I choose to put the work in and am LUCKY that I have an understanding wife.  Family support helps a lot too.

Trust me....if I can do it, anyone can.  It just might take longer or shorter for some.

I think that like most things, you can put in a medium to hard amount of work and see a huge improvement from where you started. But the higher to the top you get, the harder it is to see improvement. Examples - dieting - lose 20 pounds, hard, but doable, but the last 5 pounds? Takes as long or longer than the 20 took. Running - go from a 11 minute mile to an 8 minute mile, hard but doable. 8-6, very hard.

 That being said, and yes I'm just starting, but I think that the amount of work to get from BOP to MOP will be less than to get from MOP to top 10%.

My $0.02 cents.....

It depends on what level you want to reach.  Genetics must play some role.  Otherwise, how would the Kenyans be so dominant in running?  And not even all Kenyans, but primarily members of a specific tribe?  Also, there are limiting factors that are predetermined.  You can change your VO2Max to some extent, but chances are you're never going to get it up to level that elite endurance athletes have, no matter how much you train.

Anyone can qualify for Boston, but they need to put in the training.  I don't think there's a person out there who can't physically accomplish that, barring physical disabilities.

In terms of why the 30-39 AGers are as competitive as they are.....That one's simple: time.  Most of those athletes have been involved in competitive endurance athletics for many many many years.  They are finally hitting their peaks at that time frame.  Sure, maturity and focus are factors, but they can't substitute the massive amount of training already in the bank that most elite and top AG athletes have over the rest.  If any of us spent the last 10-15 years putting in 100 mile weeks for running, or comparable for swimming and biking, we'd be able to be much more competitive at this point, too.  Most of those elite runners weren't the top runners in college.  Sure, they were better than most, but they weren't running away with titles all the time.

So, yes, genetics plays a role in determining elite athletes, but amount of training is also key, and can help overcome certain genetic shortfalls.