JohnnyKay and Fred Doucette's HIM/IM focused Mentor group-CLOSED (Page 4)

You must be thinking about a different race...IMTX bike course should be easy-peasy in terms of elevation. I've heard it can be windy on the course from folks riding it now, not sure if it will still be in 6 weeks. Of course, there's heat and humidity but I haven't heard anyone calling this bike course challenging.

Fred Doucette - 2011-04-12 6:31 AM We're LIVE!

I was waiting for you to go live and join and lol and behold you closed before going live.

Such is life -- Fred is a great mentor, y'all are a lucky group of mentees.

x2 on this thred. Lots of insight information here and ideas. I want to extend this conversation to the HIM distance as well. Since I am training for a HIM this year my training dynamic has changed a bit. What do people think for long runs and bike rides? I plan on doing my long rides in the 3-4 hour range 60-80 miles maxing out, and then runs I am perplexed with. Doing I go longer then 13.1 or cut if off there. Should I train with walking? I do not plan to walk during the race. I start my specific training for Racine on the 23rd I believe.

One part of nutrition that is often overlooked is pre-race nutrition. Before you go out on your rides, eat as you would before the race. What is your breakfast? What time do you plan on eating? etc. These are all factors that can lead to a bad nutritional day so get it done in training.  

Fred Doucette - 2011-04-13 9:28 AM

kaburns1214 - 2011-04-13 9:22 AM

Fred Doucette - 2011-04-12 6:31 AM We're LIVE!

 

I was waiting for you to go live and join and lol and behold you closed before going live.

Such is life -- Fred is a great mentor, y'all are a lucky group of mentees.

I had promised kelly in earlier, so you are in. I apologize if this seems arbitrary to add people after I said no, but I had promised earlier.

 

Welcome

Thank you!  Here's my story/bio:

NAME: Kelly

TORY: This is my 6th year of triathlon.  I started participating in 2006 after having ankle reconstruction surgery, which limited my ability to run. My A races this year are both IMs -- LP and Florida.  I will also be racing St. Anthony's, Rev 3 Quassy, AG Nationals and Augusta 70.3.  I have been coached by Doug Maclean at QT2 Systems for the past year.  Over the past I have been very consitent with my training and have seen large improvements in my race performances.  My ultimate goal is qualify for Kona in 2012, I've set up 3 shots -- IMFL this year and then IMTX and IMKY in 2012.  I understand that it is a big, long term commitment and thankfully I have a solid support system.

FAMILY STATUS: Married.  I met my husband Shaun at the Gatorade swim practice at IMKY in 2008.  We were married last October. 

CURRENT TRAINING: I am following a plan made by my coach.  Currently I am in my first build block leading up to IMLP.

2010 RACES: St. Anthonys, Patriot Half, FIRMman Half, HalfMax National Championships 

2011 RACES: St. Anthony's (May 1), Rev 3 Half (June 5), IMLP (July 24), AG Nationals (August 21), Augusta 70.3 (September 25), IMFL (November 5)

WEIGHT LOSS GOALS: I am currently 5'9" and weigh 162 lbs.  My racing weight it probably around 145 lbs (there's wiggle room because I'm looking more for a BF measurement than a weight.  Body composition is a big issue for me.  Its really hard for me to drop weight and I've been working with a nutritionist

WHAT WOULD MAKE ME A GOOD MENTEE: I am a sponge.  In my attempt to get faster I try to absorb all the information I can and learn from other's experiences.

Dream Chaser - 2011-04-13 10:31 AM

chasingkona - 2011-04-13 10:09 AM

Fred Doucette - 2011-04-13 4:14 AM

jimmyb - 2011-04-12 11:37 PM My A race is IM Louisville. I have done it a few times before and my best finish is 13 hours 5 min. My goal this year is to beat 12:15. It's a good race for me as the time of year works well and the hills are very similar to what I ride every day in Grand Rapids, MI. This time around I am dedicating more time to running as I have hope to walk less during the marathon, better yet not at all. I am also working on getting much more bike endurance (as opposed to speed) so I have more leftover after for the run. The heat in Louisville is a challenge and I will need to get out more in the heat this summer. As far as nutrition is concerned, I typically use gels taped to my bike frame and a bottle of Gatorade and a water for my long rides. I have power bars as well. Sometimes I need something solid. I like to drink coke near the end of a long ride if available. After a long session I have started drinking milk mixed with chocolate protein powder. This has also helped me to minimize waking up with the 3 am munchies.One strategy I also use is to go out on the bike kind of hungry. This in some ways mimics how I feel after a swim, and it forces me to learn how to eat on the bike. I would say I'm in the 200-300 cal per hour range when pushing it. I've never used salt tablets but would like to hear others thoughts on this. Jim I will add everyone as friends as soon as I get back from Vegas.

OK this is a favorite discussion topic of mine:

ie; let's talk about it a bit.

Here is a really interesting and insightful thread:
http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=246743&posts=85&start=1

It's a bit long but honestly covers the topic quite well. I will be on the computer later and will add some more thoughts.

 

x2 on this thred. Lots of insight information here and ideas. I want to extend this conversation to the HIM distance as well. Since I am training for a HIM this year my training dynamic has changed a bit. What do people think for long runs and bike rides? I plan on doing my long rides in the 3-4 hour range 60-80 miles maxing out, and then runs I am perplexed with. Doing I go longer then 13.1 or cut if off there. Should I train with walking? I do not plan to walk during the race. I start my specific training for Racine on the 23rd I believe.

Hello Everyone.   Just saw this thread and wanted to share my experience with HIM training.  I did my first two HIM's in 2008.  I had a solid Running Base but only began training for triathlon the beginning of that year.  In  May of 2008 I ran a 1:31 stand-alone half marathon.  Two months later I did Ironman Rhode Island and my 13.1 mile time was 2:08:59.   According to a highly-acclaimed coach, the difference in your stand-alone Half Marathon and 70.3 Half Marathon time should be roughly 8%.  So I should've ran a 1:38-ish; especially since the courses are similar in elevation.  For me, it boiled down to lack of Swim endurance, and lack of Bike Fitness/Endurance. 

A coach will identify your limiters and create a plan accordingly.  If you don't have a coach (which I don't) the key is to pick a plan and follow it, making MINOR modifications to cater toward the disciplines which are limiters, while maintaining fitness in your strong discipline.  

With running, it's more about consistency to build durability as opposed to Long Runs.  *This is what I've been told and I am finding it true.  

The Swim is also very underrated, IMO.  Yes, more focused swim time will not yield quality results regarding improved times like it will with the Bike or Run; however, getting your Swim fitness and endurance to the point where you come out of the water feeling "fresh" will allow you to Bike and Run to your potential.  If there is not enough of focus put on the Swim, then it doesn't matter how good your Bike or Run fitness is because you'll be fatigued from the swim and thus not be able to Bike or Run to your potential.  So I don't Swim Train to get faster,  I Swim to build my Endurance so I can have a better Bike and Run.

Just my random thoughts and babbling for everyone.

"For me, it boiled down to lack of Swim endurance, and lack of Bike Fitness/Endurance. "

In my experience, one of the biggest limiters on the run in bike durability.  If you don't come off the bike feeling good there's no way you're going to be able to run well no matter how much run training you have.  I really like the expression - "there's no such thing as a good bike followed by a bad run."  Essentially, you need to ride (and pace) realistically on the bike based on your training so that you can get off the bike and run well.  An extra 10 minutes "gained" on the bike can result in an extra 30 minutes "lost" on the run.

Good point.  Before long rides and long runs, I try to eat about 250 calories about 90 minutes prior with about 20 ounces of water.  That usually gets the pipes going so I can flush out yesterday's meals before the ride/run starts.

For sprints, olys, and even marathons, I'll tend to start the process about 2 hours before the race, eat a little more...maybe 300-350 calories, then sip water at the race site and take a gel 15 minutes prior

As far as bike/run pacing in a HIM...how do you really know what is too easy/too hard on the bike.  I'm by far strongest on the bike, and I'm almost certain that I will go too hard (not sure by how much though) on the bike.  I can't imagine myself going too easy.

In the two Oly races I've done, I've biked what was perceived to be hard...possibly too hard, and still had good 10ks following them where my pacing was pretty consistant and finished with a strong kick.  I would say I finished the bike at an effort where I could have sustained that biking effort for maybe 3-4 more miles.

But for a 56/13.1 combination, how should I feel coming off the bike.  I know a lot depends on training, but in general...should I get off the bike feeling that I should be able to hold that effort for 5 more miles?  10 miles?

What is the longest brick you recommend?  Personally, I'm not a big fan of bricks.  I rather do good quality long rides, then a good long run the next day to gain fitness.  But I understand the value of bricks to help you judge pacing for both the bike and run.  So what do you think is the most effective bike/run brick distance to help get you that information?  50/7?  60/5? 56/13.1?

Happy hump-day group!

YUM. I just ate the most delicious banana in the world.

I typed up a response to the nutrition question yesterday but lost it...here's a quick summary. Like Neil, I have had success with taking in fluids every 10 minutes on the bike. I use CarboPro and supplement with solids...sometimes a PB&J, Cliff Bars (white choc macadamia nut is the BOMB), or gels. My stomach seems to handle it all fine in the 300-350 cal/hr range. I shoot for 18-28 oz per hour depending on the temperature. For the run I've done sweat tests that reveal fluid requirements of 38 oz per hour but I've never actually consumed that much in training...seems like too much. I think I need a couple more sweat tests to confirm. For the run I'll live off the course. I've tried Ironman Perform and don't love the taste but my stomach doesn't get upset. I'll stick to Perform and gels/shotblocks for the run.

The biggest hole in my nutrition plan (being 5.5 weeks out from my A race IMTX) is salt. I don't train with it since it has been cool in northern California, and I'm not a heavy sweater. The race will be hot which I dealt with last year at Vineman, so I know what to expect in terms of temperature. The humidity however will be totally new to me. I really only have a day and two nights to acclimate. I don't know how this will impact my sweat rate, calorie absorbtion, etc. I know I'll need some salt pills along the way and need to start practicing with them pronto, even if I'm not sweating a ton in this cooler weather. Any advice on this one would be much appreciated!

Anyone have a link that will take me to the last page of this thread?

Update to include Kelly...

JohnnyKay/Fred Doucette HIM/IM Focused Mentor Group:
ball6135 (Robb)
cathyd (Cathy)
chasingkona (Ben)
docswim24 (Dan)
dhopman (Dave)
Dream Chaser (Bobby)
Fred Doucette (Fred)
Go Faster (Neil)
Graycat (Tim)
Jimmyb (Jim)
JohnnyKay (John)
kaburns1214 (Kelly)
Nole Runner (John)
quincyf (Quincy)
sbsmann (Scott)
tri808 (Jason)
trigal38 (Dina)

Training for HalfMax last year I would have a 4-5 hour bike (so about 75-85 miles) followed by a 60 minute run at my aerobic endurance pace on Saturday followed by a 90 minute bike with a 90 minute - 2 hour T run on Sunday.  With the exception of one hard interval run, all of my running was off of the bike.

It worked well for me, I ran within 2 minutes of my HM PR in the HIM (let's note I set new HM PRs last fall / this winter) but it was still the fastest HIM run I've had by about 20 minutes. 

With regard to bike racing -- I find this calculator the be really useful (and extremely acurate):  http://www.triathloncalculator.com/ for the purposes of pacing.

Hope you enjoy your trip to Germany.  I spent a few weeks in Regensburg when I rowed in high school.  It was quite nice from what I remember and it would be neat to go back some day for the IM.

It's always a good idea to know what will be available on the course.  And it's great if those are poducts you know you can use, if needed.  But, it is not difficult to carry most of what you need on your bike as long as you can keep it simple. 

As I noted, I have been able to get by on a combination drinks & gels.  I have carried up to 4 gel flasks (effectively 1600 cal) in my pockets.  That's enough for most people who complete the ride near 6 hours or so when combined with sports drink from the course.  Concentrating a regular bottle on the bike is also a possibility.  I have used Infinit, but there are other dimilar drinks.  Or you could do a large bottle with gels and add some water.  You just need to be able to estimate how much of the bottle you need to drink each interval.

You can also split your nutrition in half and pick up the second half at special needs.  I do prefer not to stop, but it really doesn't (or shouldn't) take very long and some people like the quick break from spinning the legs.

On the run, I really don't like to carry my own nutrition/hydration unless absolutely forced to do so (like in trianing).  But some people do it either because they can't stomach what is on the course or simply feel more comfortable using their own mix of fuels.  At most, I may take a few of my favorite flavored gels and put them in one of my jersey pockets in case the flavors on the course really don't appeal to me.  But I've taken gels and drinks that are far from my favorite flavors during races without any real problems.  Again, most of the ingredients in these products are quite similar.  Most people can convince themselves to look past taste or texture briefly while they suck it down.  If you can't, for some reason, then think about options to carry your own.

Two things on pacing.  First, you can use HR or power (if you have them) as tools to help you regulate your effort.  But it really is something you have to learn.  RPE is the best measure, but 'calibrating' RPE so that it leaves you with enough for a good run in an HIM or IM is no simple task.  Second, a "good" run is not measured by consistent pacing or kick at the end, but by how close you can run to your potential.  There is a great chart here which gives some indication of what that means (warning: this chart is a pretty good yardstick for many triathletes, but may break down for some at either tail of the bell-curve).  Generally, when you come off the bike in an HIM, you should expect to be able to run at roughly your open-marathon pace.

As far as your longest brick, there is no single answer.  It is entirely dependent upon your training and your fitness base.  Any run off the bike should help you learn to 'calibrate' your RPE to some degree.  But it's very difficult to get a great read on how you and your body will react to that pace for the full distance, off a race-day effort bike ride and a race-day effort swim.  Your individual paces in training can tell you quite a bit, especially if you have trained consistently across all 3 disciplines.  I agree completely with Fred (and others) that not only is pacing the bike a big issue in having a good run, but that having a strong base in both swimming & biking (a relatively deep fitness level, not necessarily "speed") is needed.  The swim seems to be the most overlooked aspect in putting together a strong triathlon for most people.

FWIW, personally, my 'race rehearsal' ride/run combo is a bike at my expected race intensity for the expected duration plus a run of about 6mi at race pace.  (Note, I don't always use miles for the bike because I may ride a hilly training route and be racing a flat course.  I use a rough 'expected time' since if I expect to be done quicker, I ride the race harder--and vice versa.)  I'll do that once or twice and am really only looking for 'obvious' problems--not expecting to fine tune things and be 'sure' that my pacing will work out.  For example, if I am already cooked off the bike, I need to rethink my goal pacing.  If it seems OK, then I know I'll have the chance to find out for 'sure' on race day.