Shane's (gsmacleod) Coaching Mentor Group - Open (Page 4)

Here is what I do...

Start an email conversation, this is simply to understand the athlete as an individual first. What drives them, motivates them, how do they set their goals, are they realistic, what is their background, etc. I feel a conversation with these questions are better and you can pull out more information from them then. If I like the direction of the conversation and that we get along I take them on, if not I tell them why I don't think we would be a good fit. Then I want to get more details, old logs, how they trained, etc. Basically I want a painting of their life in and out of sport so I can guide them on a training plan best suited for the.

After that is all done, I establish clear short/long term goals to aim for. Go over the year, plan races and then work from that.

Agreed; the conversation with me happens to some extent during the initial phases when an athlete is thinking about coaching and then after they complete the questionaire based on any questions I have or that they have. While the questionaire provides lots of information, there is a great deal more that comes out as a result of the on going conversations which is why I don't believe it is ever a good idea for a coach to limit communication.

Shane

IMO when you see a coach price levels of communication that is an ultimate red flag to me. I saw an interview with 2 coaches that talked about how they opened all lines of communication and would receive lots of phone calls and got annoyed, again this is an example of "poor form" as a coach IMO. Communication is vital, you have have the best athlete, with the best work ethic, and a well laid out plan, but limited communication will only prevent the coach/athlete relationship from getting stronger and more beneficial to each other.

In my years of coaching, too much communication has never been an issue. Although I've had athletes express that they felt they provided more info than I wanted or too much detail, I have always assured them that more detail is far superior to less.

Perhaps if a coach is getting too much feedback to deal with, they're trying to coach too many athletes.

Shane

I agree with that statement, and from the athletes POV maybe they could at some point feel overwhelmed with the info? Just a bought, not a comment off feedback I have seen. I guess when working with an athlete you want to provide them with a clear direction to move forward, and that "clear" direction could be compromised by so much noise. Maybe I am splitting hairs here.

Great athlete profile doc. Lots on there that I would not have considered.

I know I haven't had a lot to add, but I am reading it all. Great info in this thread.

Thanks!

Hi my name is Kelly. I do lots of adventures, bit I would like to step it up and do my first triathlon. Please contact me I'm looking so forward to becoming a triathlete contact me soon please thanks.

Shane,
I noticed in the athlete profile you ask for a lot of detail about medical background,etc. That got me to thinking, what do you that are actively coaching clients do for liability protection. Do you operate under an LLC or other type of protection for your personal assets? Just carry individual liability insurance?
It seems in this day and age you have to protect yourself. I can just imagine coaching someone and their workout for the day is to go out and run 8 miles, then they have a heart attack or something terrible happens while out for their run and the family wants to sue the coach because he/she told them to go for that run.
Is this a legitimate concern or am I over-reacting / over-thinking it?

Whenever possible, I do the initial review as a discussion live--in person, on Skype, or over the phone, for this very reason. The questions depend on what it is they want me to coach them for or toward. I do more swim coaching than anything--attached are the questions I ask for swim coaching, and I write or type the answers myself, for me, and then give them a copy.

Attachments
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Swimmer Interview.docx (10KB - 28 downloads)

I would not sya that you are over-reacting at all and I think that not having some type of insurance coverage is a very bad idea. For USAT coaches there is some liability protection included with coaching certification however my understanding is that there are many caveats that come with it in terms of who is covered and what it covers.

I have debated doing an LLC but I have not yet gone down the road and am not sure if I will. I need to investigate it a bit more in terms of cost and hassle to setup as when I first looked at it I was only coaching a couple of athletes and felt that my insurance coverage would be sufficient.

Shane

Thanks for sharing - I have occasionally done an interview first and filled in responses or had an athlete fill out the questionaire however I find that for me, it usually works better to have them go through what they are able to in the profile and then we will use that to guide discussion. The important thing of course is trying to learn as much as you can about your athletes before you begin working with them so that the workload you are prescribing is appropriate to their level of fitness, time available, etc.

Shane

Another reason to go ahead and work towards the USAT certification

Shane and Yanti - thanks for sharing your start-up questionnaires - very insightful. Shane yours is more in-depth than the one provided my coach, but instead of giving it to me to fill out, he instead gave it to me to look over before our kick-off meeting just to let me know the kind of things we would be talking about in that meeting. A couple of days after that meeting he followed up with a document more similar to yours that HE had filled out - it was incredibly helpful to read not just what I said but rather what he heard. It really keyed me in to a) his insight, b) the connections he saw between data points, and c) what was signal and what was noise relative to the things that were meaningful and relevant to him. As I have about 20 years of comprehensive logs (and HR data going back to 1995) he was also very interested in my habits relative to building, following, and logging workouts.

And FWIW from the looks of the number of times Shane's file has been downloaded, I am not the only one lurking around the edges of this group!

I found out a few days ago that I will be able to participate in a USAT Level I Clinic.
Early on in this group Shane pointed out something along the lines that in his view Level I certification was not an end but instead something that should occur nearer to the beginning of becoming a coach. On the other hand someone else (Jim, maybe?) expressed his dismay at the folks that showed up to his clinic vastly underprepared.

So I don't really want to be "that guy." I have been cramming since you all posted key resource information several weeks ago; are there any other tips or pointers (general or specific) that you might offer to better insure adequate preparation going into a Level I clinic? What might one expect from those two days?

I was actually talking to another coach about the insurance issue today and this is what he was told when he went to his level I clinic (he never bothered to "earn" his certificate too, and has coached many to Kona, Vegas, PR's, etc.)

1. You must be certified
2. Your athlete must currently hold a USAT card
3. Your athletes must be currently signed up for a USAT race

Failing one of these criteria and you fail to be covered.

Not trying to hijack this thread, discussion, but I think it is a very worthy discussion topic is USAT certification.

I have always been weary of certifications, as to me they seem like a means to basically absorb a bunch of knowledge then spit it out on a test. having knowledge, and using critical thinking skills to apply that knowledge are two completely different traits. These USAT level I clinics are a weekend long, really how much material can you get across in one weekend? Furthermore, while you may be slammed with a lot to learn, the application process into the sport is really where it matters. From my understanding this is not part of the USAT clinic. I would much rather have discussions and use critical thinking skills then attend a series of lectures that I have most likely read through, been presented with in my undergraduate education.

I have recently decided to pass up my decision on earning my level I, II, III certifications. I feel that I can save that money and time and instead work with actual coaches, athletes, mentors, stay up to date on research and readings etc. to build a sound and appreciable philosophy on coaching in the sport of triathlon. Lots of great coaches with proven track records in the sport right now DO NOT have their USAT certificate and/or failed their level I exam. Speaking of exam I saw some of the questions that are asked on the exam, why on earth would USAT ask what the best way to advertise is? How on earth is that applicable to developing athletes?

Shane I would like to hear your thoughts and views. I am being a bit outspoken in my views, but this is how I feel after debating for awhile, talking to coaches, and getting an idea for what really goes on in the clinics.

This is not a knock on any coach with a level I, II, or III certification, but rather my views on the content and USAT itself in how they handle their clinics.

Edited by bcagle25 2014-02-11 8:54 PM

Rusty,

IME anyone who has a basic knowledge of physiology and training is not going to be that guy at any coach education clinic. I would say that the ideal participant would be someone who has some experience coaching (doesn't need to be in triathlon but one of the individual sports would be beneficial), some knowledge of triathlon training and a willingness to ask questions and enhance their coaching practice. Since I don't have any direct experience with the USAT course I will leave that to others to answer but if you've read through the resources plus what you learned simply being part of the sport, I suspect that you will have no issues when it comes to what is presented during the course.

Shane

I had posted this yesterday (or so I thought) but apparently the ether absorbed it so here it goes again:

One of the things that you will want to consider after you have a grasp of where your athlete is currently and where they want to go, is how do you plan to build and deliver training programs. There are many different options open to coaches and if you are just starting out, then probably the easiest method is to just use a spreadsheet and shared calendar in order to provide information from your athlete and have them log their workouts. If you are going to be exchanging lots of files (power, HR, GPS, etc) then some of the other options are more efficient but do come with a price (such as TrainingPeaks and RaceDay Apollo); these also offer many different features such as building your workout library, analyzing training at the micro and macro levels as well as not having to worry about emailing spreadsheets, logs, etc back and forth depending on how you set it up with your athletes.

Another question to consider is how often you want to be planning the an athlete's schedule; you will see many coaches that offer different levels of service, probably the two most common being weekly planning and monthly planning. When I started I had offered the two levels as well but quickly found myself going to weekly planning for all; one month of planning at a time is simply too long for a coach to adequately prepare a training program except in broad strokes and I find that weekly has worked much better for me and my athletes. I also encourage athletes to log regularly so that I can see how workouts went and make changes as required or to let me know if they run into difficulty and have to skip a workout or have work/family issues, get sick, etc. The more information you have the better you will be able to respond to the needs of your athletes and I also tell my athletes that it is much better that they give me too much information (in their mind) rather than too little.

I am currently using TrainingPeaks and am fortunately enough to be under their old pricing system (one time fee and they pay per athlete per month) and while I don't think that they new system is bad, it is cheaper for me to continue to operate under this system. I have also used RaceDay Apollo however I didn't have a lot of athletes training with power and GPS when I first tried it so it was useful for some athletes but not as useful for others. I really liked the program and if I were paying TrainingPeaks current fees, I would probably opt for Apollo as it works out to be about the same price and I really like the modelling it does across all three sports in terms of fitness and fatigue.

Curious as to what others are using and if you have any questions about diffrent methods of communicating training plans with athletes.

Shane

This is my understanding as well but since I don't work in the USAT system, I wasn't sure.



I am conflicted on this as I feel that as soon as a coach education program becomes more about creating a profit than it is about education, then you have the tail wagging the dog. Further, coach education should not be about (or very minimally about) building a business; if someone wants to build a coaching business, then learn how to coach and learn how to run a business instead of trying to roll the two things together. While I obviously have no issues with coaching for profit, I don't feel that coach education seminars are the place to be learning how to run a business. The time that coaches spend learning about coaching is already quite limited so the time spent in the classroom should be maximized with coach education not business education.

I also think that the CEU program is a good idea and looking at current offerings, seems to be structured toward actual coach education than in the past (for example, I don't see Ben Greenfield on the list of CEU presenters anymore).

Where I am conflicted is that I feel very strongly that to grow the sport we need coaches who are working with our youth, junior and U23 development athletes and that these athletes should be coached by those who are recognized by their NGB (national governing body) as certified coaches. While at the highest levels the NGB may decide that a coach's experience is more than adequate to recognize them as a certified coach, at the local and regional levels, the easiest way to ensure that coaches have the base knowledge required will be to look at certification. However, in order for this to have merit, then the courses that are being recognized would have to be geared toward preparing coaches to work with development athletes at different stages as opposed to preparing them to run an online coaching business.

Shane

Couple things.

Last year I tried several options when laying out a plan. I tried a bi-weekly and monthly written out plan and noticed 2 things immediately. Communication with that individual dropped, logs were updated less, quality of communication and feedback in general was poor. I made small changes through the month, but I quickly returned to a weekly plan.

Also, with that said I have found that sometimes athletes will look ahead or want to know of "epic" workouts that are coming. I think this is another reason why weekly planning is really the best way to go. It keeps the athlete engaged in the present, and not looking too far forward. I also will only post some workouts 24-48 hours before so the athletes anxiety does not effect their performance in that session. I have found with a couple athletes they will dread a specific workout all week, which means they are not mentally motivated or engaged when that session comes around.

I do not have experience with RaceDay Apollo, but skimmed it briefly when I was in talks with Steve Johnson (DarkHorse Triathlon) and he spoke very highly of it.

I'll reply more on the USAT clinics when I get home tonight.

Edited by bcagle25 2014-02-12 11:52 AM

Alright in my little post about USAT clinics I mentioned application. This is what makes a coach a coach. Any exercise physiologist can tell you what the science says, but it is a coach that applies that science in a sound fashion to develop an athlete.

I would like to hear how everyone that is working with athletes applies the "science into the sport/training". This is a pretty wide open question so feel free to run wild with it.

Also I would like to add another question that, in a way, is based on my first question. When building a specific training block for an athlete how do you design the sessions? To you write specific sessions for that individual? Use a template where you enter in their personal specific numbers? Curious to see what people do/try.

Any recommendations for good cycling training/coaching books?

Thanks guys for your views of coaching certification - very helpful and I have to admit while new to the idea of coaching I have to agree with your skepticism. I work professionally in a field in which we are mandated by law to have a license to practice. As such we go through a minimum of 5 years of accredited education, 3 years of regulated internship, 12 days of testing for licensure, and then a significant commitment to annual continuing education requirements. On top of this there are a myriad of "certifications" that one can gain that basically say that you have taken this class and/or passed an exam in a particular, narrowly focused area of expertise or topic area. A such certifications are the lowest level (and least meaningful) aspect of our profession. In our discipline certifications in no way, shape, or form make you a professional. In the same vein I don't see that any certification could make you a coach. For better or worse though in the current system just being a coach makes you a coach. I have to believe however that education, mentorship, and experience are the primary factors in whether or not you are a good one.

So rest assured that I am not naive in what I expect to gain from the clinic. I mean it is only two days, right? My single motivation to work toward certification is simply that the entity that I am aligning myself with coaching at the junior and developmental level requires it as a minimum qualification. They also require experience specifically working with youth; I am currently developing a relationship with others who have experience in the area to work in a sort of mentorship (my words not theirs, but it is the system with which I am most familiar in my own profession). I am fortunate in that it is both my area of research and I have lots of experience working with and teaching youth and young adults through immersive, hands-on experiences (i.e.: you learn how to do things by actually doing them) and a rather deep administrative, marketing and finance acumen as well. Where my experience falls way short is that I have a very limited formal education with regard to the actual content of coaching - I have a very long row to hoe in that regard.

Shane:
this is what I do with my coach and it works great for me.
We sit down in december (nothing magic about that I don't think - it is just a good chunky break from work for me) and begin working through goals for the year, potential races, and a very rough annual training plan. That get communicated back to me via an excel spreadsheet as a more formal ATP with blocks laid out along with periodization schemes, areas of focus, goals, and targeted outcomes. As an athlete I find it very important to keep "goals" and "outcomes" clear and distinct - I think a lot folks get sideways from the get-go in this regard.

From there we use training peaks to communicate schedules. I first enter mine relative to work, travel, and other commitments that are pertinent out as far in advance as I know. This is very important in that I travel a lot and my schedule changes frequently from day-to-day. My coach then builds out a week ~ 9 days max, but will sometimes put some things hanging a little further out there just as a reminder for us both. We talk on the phone minimum once per week - We have been working together long enough to learn what schedule works best for us. I am fortunate in that my schedule is flexible; it seems most of his athletes have more rigid work schedules and can only talk at lunch or in the evenings after work.While he usually contacts me, I still try to avoid those times. We do email a good bit, but the simple Q&A clarification stuff is done mostly by text message. If something comes up with work/travel/weather we communicate in whatever way seems best to reassess the week and restructure it. I am a quick logger as I have found this is the best way to get immediate feedback and assessment - the upcoming days will often get readjusted simply because my coach sees something he likes (or doesn't) in my logs. Honesty even my weekly training builds are just roadmaps, and sometimes we take detours as the terrain change unexpectedly. As progress is made or setbacks occur, the ATP gets updated and sent back out to me.

It is obvious at times that my coach sometimes cuts and pastes workouts between athletes, and other times writes very specific workouts just for the particular circumstance at hand - that never has bothered me - the "work" in coaching me is much more about athlete management and overall structure and adaptability than individual workouts. I know other athletes that this bugs for some reason, however.

In my particular situation the most import thing from a planning POV is by each sunday afternoon to have a rough idea of what I am going to doing at least sport-wise each following day, at least on the days I am scheduled to travel away from home. I don't have to know the specific workout, but I need sport (run, bike, swim, indoor, outdoor, etc) so I can look at the weather and resources available wherever I am going to be and pack accordingly on sunday night before I hit the road monday morning (which almost always starts with masters).

Finally, my wife and both have the same coach which is great. She has a schedule that also is very dynamic, but less flexible than mine. A very import role our coach plays is in coordinating our schedules so that they work well with each other but at the same time we are both doing the things we individually need to do to reach our personal goals. This level of coordination is golden for us.

I was talking to another well known coach that comes from an ex phys background and we were talking about metabolic efficiency. Does anyone have an research on this topic for or against it. I am not really on either side, but would like to see some data to gain a better another view outside of my education