SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN (Page 41)

Last summer I did 20k/wk for a couple months. Think it was on 6 times a week or so with several in the 3-4k range, 1 up around 5 and maybe a couple more 2.5-3k. Saw maybe a few sec/100 increase in speed, but not entirely sure. No pace clock and no instruction there. I was definitely much less fatigued coming out of the water at races though.

My biggest improvements came when I started up at masters. Not sure of the exact drop, but over the first couple months it was substantial and came on 13-16k/wk. Typically 2 swims at masters and 2-3 on my own. Had some instruction on what to do for the first time ever and was able to execute sets substantially better by having both the pace clock and the other people of similar ability around.

If you haven't done a lot of swimming before, then I think it's probably better that you didn't do so much big swims. Maybe work into some, but set size depends a lot on the ability and what one is training for. I can do 6,000 yd sets, but I'm better off doing more shorter than that because I can push the effort quite a bit higher. 

Currently I'm doing around 3.5-4.5k in the pool on Monday and Wednesday, with about 2-2.5k of that being part of a masters class.  A 3k OWS on Friday, and sometimes 1k after my long run as a cool down.

I would agree with Ben that the biggest difference is how hard I have been swimming within those yards.  If I could get to the pool more often, I would rather break it up into 6 swims of about 2-2.5k and swim most of it hard.  And if I did a big swim focus, I'd hope that I can build up enough endurance to get those swims into the 2.5-3k per day range and still swim hard.

The gains I've seen is basically going from a set like 10x50y on 1' coming in around 45 and trying to descend down to 38.  Now I'm doing the same set starting at around 42 and descending down to 35.5.  And while I am winded on the last set, there isn't nearly as much lactic acid in my arms.  My 100 times have dropped from around 1:28-1:30 down to 1:22-1:24 for say 5x100 on 1:45. 

My open water swim times have also dropped.  My very best 2k meter OWS before June was 38:30 in really glassy and calm conditions in the ocean.  Now I'm consistently doing 3k in the 57 minute range regardless of conditions...which is a faster pace than my previous 2k personal best.

The 6 swims would be a great way to do it except in your case I would keep that 3k OWS.  Last time I was in Kona I swam the course and I was amazed at how much it took out of me simply because it was in the ocean vs the pool.  I had never done anything close to that distance in the ocean.

Those are some great improvements and I'm sure they will pay off for you come race day!

The two pools we use for masters are undergoing maintenance over the next 2 weeks, before school starts up for them, so I'm back in the gym pools for that time. Trying to do anything there is just so vague feeling now. I know I'm pushing, but not really sure how much without the pace clock. Learning to use that was so helpful in finding an appropriate amount of hard and that I was still holding form well enough. There are some other things too, but that's definitely a big one.

When I first started swimming, I was doing 2-3 times a week on my own.  Last September, I signed up for a "Master's" class -- it was actually just a group of triathletes who got together and swam once a week (did things like laps without touching the walls, worked on drafting, simulated mass starts, etc).  I was fairly consistently swimming twice a week on my own and once with the group.

In November of last year, they changed the swim format and actually had a true Master's set-up, offering five swims a week.  I started swimming with the group twice a week and by myself once a week.  In the months leading up to Vineman, I was pretty consistently going to four sessions with the Master's group a week.

Since September of last year, I went from 2:00/100 yards to 1:40/100 meters for a sustainable pace.  Find a way to make your schedule work out -- Master's classes really are worth it!!

Interesting discussion.

Brings to mind a question I've had on swimming for a while (and posted in TT, I think, a while back but to no great satisfaction).

It's said in running to run lots, sometimes hard, mostly easy.  In biking, people talk about time in the saddle and building lots of base with loooooong, slow rides early in the season and doing Strava segments intervals for speed.

In swimming, I've repeatedly heard the emphatic comment that without doing lots of short, intense sets (20x100 at vomit:100 or the like), that you're completely wasting your time.

I understand that form breaks down with fatigue and that swimming is different from b/r in that respect, so you need the rest to keep the form (and thereby be able to go longer and longer with good form).  However, swimming slower but WITH good form and going long just intuitively seems to be a good way to build swim specific endurance.  No?

As the season has progressed, I've added longer continuous swims into my training rotation (now I probably do more long swims than swims with lots of intervals) and feel that it has made a big difference in how long I can hold a certain pace. 

Much like running, I still do intervals to try to get my max speed up, but how long I can hold that seems to have been postively affected by the longer swims.  Again, just like in my running and riding.

So, is this one of those things like wetsuit/non-wetsuit that I've asked previously that shows total Noob status or something that people can discuss rationally? 

Just curious what y'all think on this.

Matt

Just my .02, for me there is a place for longer continuous swims as I get closer to race day, but (again, just me) I don't feel they do me a whole lot of good unless I have 10s of 1000s of yards of, what was it?  vomit inducing 100s?    I need that base in order to swim well OW.  Meaning, in order to get faster.  I guess to put it in more concrete terms.  I could go out and do a lot of straight OW swims a bit slower, and hold "X" pace.  With the interval training, I have more options and can hold "X-:10" pace to bridge a gap, or get away from a group, etc.  I have more gears

I'll be interested to hear Jason's thoughts post-October.  My friends that are very good swimmers (i.e, hour or less, even at non wetsuit kona), find that this IM is much more crowded in that time frame than a "regular" IM.  Makes sense. 

Tomorrow is I think my last long ride.   Gonna switch things up a bit.  We're going to drive to our usual starting spot up in Malibu, but rather than a 6 hour out and back, my wife is gonna drive the SAG wagon and we're just going to ride straight up to Santa Barbara, hopefully a quick run, then some fish and chips.  We'll hit the outlet mall on the drive home 

Won't perfectly match up with my coach's plan, and I will be veering away from the flat coast to climb a couple hills, then come straight back down, but it'll be close enough.  Will be a nice change as many of my recent longer rides have become a bit repetitive

Sunday is the annual pier to pier 2 miler.  I was originally in the skins division, but realized I didn't need to shiver for an hour afterward so switched to suits.  This season, ever since I lost weight, I have very little tolerance for water that isn't even all that cold, i.e. 68.  I used to laugh at my skinny friends that came out of the water shivering.  Now I get out after an hour and literally cannot stop shaking for a good hour.  Karma baby.

Oh, then I have a 1:45 run after that.

Matt,

I agree with Chris that long continuous swims have their place (I do them once a week), but the real bread and butter is going to be with your intervals.  Even though your form will break down and you need the rest in between reps, you'll be taxing your cardio and fitness in a way to make improvements...so that you can hold your form during your long swims while swimming faster.

Chris - I wouldn't say I'm nervous about the Kona swim start, but lets just say I'm expecting it to be like nothing I've ever experienced...even compared to Honu 2011 and 2012 where it was a mass start of 1500+ athletes.  I've read Bryan Dunn's RRs and he basically said that don't expect the initial part of the swim to resemble anything like swimming, and it will last twice as long as you would think it would.  The good news is that based on previous Kona swim times (thanks to the detailed Kona race result analysis that ST does), I'm pretty sure I'll be in the bottom 20% of the swim overall.  So it should be pretty easy to seed myself accordingly to "minimize" the scrum.  I cannot even imagine to think what it would be like if I could swim a 1:00-1:05...because my guess is that around 40-50% of the athletes at Kona are going to be very close to that.

Yup, I'm with this ^^.  They have their place, especially if in open water, but shouldn't be the norm.  You don't have to stick to 50s and 100s at vomit pace and short rest for tough intervals.  This morning I did 300s with 60s rest but I was pretty tired by the end of the 300s.  

The mass of people coming through in about a 10 minute window is incredible.  I will only offer you one piece of advice as someone who has watched the start from right on the pier.  Don't start along the pier!  The buoys immediately start going toward the left and it's a giant cluster F as people start squeezing left to stay on course.

Damn, strong work Ben.

Thanks Nicole :)

So here's the deal.  When I started swimming last year, I was one of those people wondering how in the world I was gonna make it through an oly swim because I was so, so gassed after 100yds.  I could swim that 100yds OK, but just had nothing left.  I decided to go to our Master's swim, and went for three sessions.  There were a few swimmers in it, but mostly triathletes, and it is taught by one of the college coaches.

Damn ego.

I struggled so much with the sets that I decided I wasn't ready for masters.  I wasn't going to give up on swimming, but I felt like I needed to figure some stuff out on my own and establish a baseline so that I wouldn't dread going to Masters.  Lol.  Really, the first step is admitting you have a problem, and as a fairly successful athlete in other sports, I just hated sucking at something so much. 

I did my swim focus, figured some stuff out, and now I feel like I could go to Masters and hang no problem.  I'm planning on starting up this fall. 6am class and we live 45 minutes away. Not pleasant, but totally doable.  Thanks for the push:)

Good Lord, Ben - if I had numbers like that I would be cat1 cyclist! If you don't mind me asking what is your w/kg?

one kinda interesting thing while checking in this morning: Delta usually charges us $150.00 per bike, but this time they did not charge us anything. The ticketing agent said it was because they weighed under 50 pounds and I did not argue.

Also, good friend and rocket-fast triathlete Al Bodine has developed a set of reusable, padded frame wraps called "Albo Pads" that we are trying out for the first time on this trip. We travel with or ship our bikes anywhere from 3~6 times a year or more and wrapping them up with pipe foam, tape, etc is always a pain. The Albo Pads made the packing process extremely fast and easy. If you transport a bike much I would definitely check them out. I didn't think to do it before hand, but I will try to snap some pics when I unpack the bikes. It is such an obvious idea I am not sure why I did not think of it....

Matt, I have been swimming for about 23 years, but only recently (3 years ago) began to really bump my volume up and have enjoyed much, much faster swim and racing times because of it. Wish I had of understood the impact of increased swim volume years ago.

The answer I got from my coach to your very same question is that you actually would benefit greatly from run training and cycling training just like swim training, if it weren't for the fact that running (and to a lesser degree cycling) breaks you down so much and requires greater recovery time. From a cardiovascular development standpoint, a hard 100 in the pool has the same effect as a hard 400 on the track. But go out and do 20x100 in the pool, and then try 20x400 on the track, and the answer becomes obvious. For this reason alone the increase in swim volume alone has helped my running significantly.

Just how to increase that volume is probably a little more personal; for example I had better success by initially cutting back my frequency to only 2 days per week masters at first, but still maintaining about 9000 yards per week, then adding a third day and then a fourth each of about 4000~4500 yards. Getting a good warmup, IM drill set, and main front crawl set were key for my positive development.

Looks like you slacked off the first two.  

Seriously, those are some monster numbers.  All 3 of them crush my (one time) 5' power.

I went to the website for the AlboPads and immediately I thought they looked an awful lot like what came with my Biospeed bike bag.  Sure enough, that's exactly what they are!  I haven't used them yet but they look great.  I hope they work well for you!

Can I ask what the reason behind doing such a workout is?  I just bought a power meter and have been reading through Allen's "Training and Racing with a Power Meter" book and happened to read his thoughts on big gear / low cadence training yesterday.  He presented some information that basically said a) it's unlikely to result in any significant hypertrophy and/or strength gains, b) one's strength is very rarely a limiter in their cycling performance, and c) it doesn't result in enhanced recruitment of  fast-twitch muscle fibers.  

His thoughts were kind of surprising and not really what I had expected, but after reading through, it kind of made sense to me.  So I'm just curious what your, others', and coaches' thoughts might be on these big gear / low cadence intervals.  

Well, the only reason *I* have for it is because that's what my coach put in my training plan.    I've honestly never paid attention to cadence at all (at least not the specific number).  I actually had to change the data screen setup on my computer to add a cadence field for the workout.