Mad Manatee Mentors 2013: CLOSED (exc/ Pop Tart bribes) (Page 410)

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by QueenZipp

Originally posted by switch

OK, swimming peeps.  A few of questions:

At what point should you stop your workout because your form/speed is suffering to much?  Is there a definitive way to make this call? 

Similar question, I have been hitting around 3000yds for the last week, but my arms are pretty dead at the end of that.  I could push through and increase my ydg, but I would have to swim really slowly to do it.  How do you increase yardage?  Do you just accept that your workouts/technique is going to suffer a bit to get to 3500 yds or 4000yds?  What is a reasonable step up?

I have been breathing every two, as that's really what I need to do in races to feel like I'm getting enough.  I'm pretty comfortable on both sides, but I've noticed I end up with a bit of a giddy-up in my stroke when I do that instead of it being more balanced on both sides.  Is that OK, or should I be working to fix that?

If I notice my form going to h3ll in a handbasket and it feels bad I stop.  It's been a while since I did that, I am told my swim looks pretty---it's just faching SLOW.  

As far as breathing goes, I try to alternate between every 3-5 strokes most of the time with the occasional 7 strokes/ breath which has me completely undone. 

Every 3 or 5?!?! or 7??? WTH?  Why are you doing that?  Why do you hate oxygen?

lol...I do 3 or 5.  It's natural for me after swim team.  Of course, during races, it often ends up being every 2 or every 3 (depending on waves).

Thanks Chris.  To answer your questions: 1) Multirace puts on a great event, most of my tris have been with them; 2) i haven't decided if I have an aversion to the requirements or not , but i would not bee too keen about handing stuff out at races; would have no issues with posting to various groups facebook pages and dropping stuff off at LBS/LRS; 3) I think I have the time; and 4) Never thought about the job impact issue, I would not be holding myself out as Ann-Marie, General Counsel for OCSO; so I don't thnk that would be an issue, but it is something to think about.

Originally posted by QueenZipp

Originally posted by Artemis

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by QueenZipp

Originally posted by switch

OK, swimming peeps.  A few of questions:

At what point should you stop your workout because your form/speed is suffering to much?  Is there a definitive way to make this call? 

Similar question, I have been hitting around 3000yds for the last week, but my arms are pretty dead at the end of that.  I could push through and increase my ydg, but I would have to swim really slowly to do it.  How do you increase yardage?  Do you just accept that your workouts/technique is going to suffer a bit to get to 3500 yds or 4000yds?  What is a reasonable step up?

I have been breathing every two, as that's really what I need to do in races to feel like I'm getting enough.  I'm pretty comfortable on both sides, but I've noticed I end up with a bit of a giddy-up in my stroke when I do that instead of it being more balanced on both sides.  Is that OK, or should I be working to fix that?

If I notice my form going to h3ll in a handbasket and it feels bad I stop.  It's been a while since I did that, I am told my swim looks pretty---it's just faching SLOW.  

As far as breathing goes, I try to alternate between every 3-5 strokes most of the time with the occasional 7 strokes/ breath which has me completely undone. 

Every 3 or 5?!?! or 7??? WTH?  Why are you doing that?  Why do you hate oxygen?

lol...I do 3 or 5.  It's natural for me after swim team.  Of course, during races, it often ends up being every 2 or every 3 (depending on waves).

If I breathe every 5 strokes I am smoother in the water and supposedly a touch faster.  Every 7 is hard, I am gassed by 75 meters but I will occasionally do an every 7 for breath control.  I despise hypoxic sets as much as kicking sets (hence my lack of progress in swimming)  A lot of the people I have had coaching Masters through the years have pushed me into the 5 strokes per breath mode.  It is okay as long as I can alternate maybe by 100's

I agree with Switch - I like oxygen!  I breathe every other stroke, to the left.  I do know I have to pay attention to what my right arm is doing while breathing, but this works best for me.  If I do a set of breathing every 3,5, 7 or 9, it is always with a pull buoy and once I get to 7 I cheat

Popping in to whine/rant about work.  My work is funded by being on grants for research studies, although I occassionally do non-grant work for other faculty/etc. but grant work is generally considered a priority.  There is a group headed by 2 women that lately has been asking me to do a lot of major changes to their website.  I don't think the 2 women communicate with each other about what is going on, and one (we'll call her A) tends to communicate with my boss and the other (we'll call her B) with me which ends up putting all 4 of us on different pages, so to speak, and not knowing what the other is doing and getting varying versions of what IS happening.  To complicate things, my boss tells me not to jump when they say jump since it isn't funded by grant money, but A especially wants things done immediately, so I'm often conflicted.

It also seems B has also told A that I have work to be done that they asked for 2 months ago (not true, all work for them is caught up and I never took more than a week to get to it), yet B never said anything to me about unfinished work and A never talks to me except 'hi' if we pass in the hall.  Thrown into the mix is another woman, we'll call her C, who is kind of like an assistant to A and B who I help with moving out changes she makes in Contribute for another project.  'A' yelled at C last week harshly enough to make her cry.  C keeps defending me, telling A that I always get work done quickly.  C was in my veal pen earlier today giving me the lowdown on A and B and what they've been saying since she gets both barrels from them.

So just when I think I'm all caught up with their work and ready to be working on things I should be working on, they send me more stuff and of course want it yesterday.  Ugh.  They give me a headache.  I truly hate drama.  Just let me sit in my little pen and program (and visit BT) peacefully.

Thanks for reading.  Please resume your regularly scheduled pod antics.

As much as I hate meetings, there is a time when they are necessary.  We have ongoing battles between the IS (system admins who are always right) and IT (people with an overblown idea of their own importance) staffs and the only way I have been able to diffuse these issues is with regular meetings. Clear the air. Set expectations. Set time tables. Get everyone on the same page.  Then shoot the most offensive. This last part can not be stressed enough!

I feel your pain Melanie. It is really tough when you are getting drawn into the mess. Especially if all you want is to get through the day as easily and productively(?) as possible.

Good luck. xo.

I am a huge fan of breakfast, but don't intentionally make it my biggest meal.  Actually, as I think of it, I pretty much each all the time

Hey all, I hope your Friday finds you well. 8 hours until vacation starts, YIPPIE!!!

Keep in mind these words from Anne Frank, "Whoever is happy will make others happy too".  You may make someone else's day just a little bit better. Enjoy the weekend.

I'll typically breathe every 3 quite a bit, going to 2 shortly here and there if needed or if I'm doing a lot really hard in sequence. If I can do more it usually means I'm not going hard enough. I'll occasionally go longer for a check on breath control, but I don't make a point of it that often. When doing 2, I'll switch sides every 50 or 25. I'm fairly ambidextrous at a lot of things and like keeping the symmetry. During a race, I alternate 3/2 quite often.

For the swimming schedule, I have the 3 times a week at masters and always try to have them as strong, quality swims. When I want to build up more, I've started with a couple more swims and only did what was basically an extended warm-up with some skill work in there. For me, out to 1200-1700 was fine to start. From there I built up more and turn them into more moderate workouts, watching how they affect the 3 quality ones. I really wanted to make sure that the quality ones stayed that way so I always had some solid work in the week. Didn't want to end up with a bunch of moderate to moderately hard work going on. Being a little tired going into masters wasn't necessarily a problem, but it was if I was well off where I should be. You're probably fine to start with that and build up how you see fit. It might go a little faster for you as your overall training load is not as high right now.

With swimming being so skill dependent, frequency matters a lot. When you get the weekly volume built up more I think you'll have some improved fitness to have more flexibility in moving that volume around. So putting in some bigger workouts may come easier then. Adding in another swim of 1500 will likely do more than trying to extend a 3000 out to 4-4,500 at this time.

We are outta here! Heading to the Carolina mountains to see fall colors, a little horseback riding, and ziplining. Savannah for a day or two. And some trail running sprinkled in there.

OK.  That feedback on the breathing is helpful.  I feel pretty strong breathing to both sides, though I know breathing to my left is a bit faster.  I will try to do a few more sets every 3 and see how that goes.

Assuming I could have 5 days/week in the water (I could go up to 6 or 7 while my running is limited), and I can swim 3000yds per session now.  How would you structure those days.  Would you keep 3 days with hard sets and the two days that would go inbetween as shorter recovery/drilling sets?  Or could I keep them all at the 3000yd range, but just have the two less intense days be, well, less intense?

Also, Ben, I'm assuming as part of Masters you work your flip turns and streamline pretty hard.  Do you ever purposefully drop these and do nowall sets to simulate more OWS stuff?  I've seen some sets for triathletes written that way, and just am wondering about the impact the wall has on OWS conditioning.  I know I certainly feel it (read that as "dread it") when we go from SCY to LCM.

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by TriAya

Originally posted by switch

Also, speaking of challenges, I have been reading Swim Speed Secrets by Shelia Taormina--OMFG, this book is AWESOME!  Her descriptions and pictures are so, so helpful.  It has been awesome to be in the water with a very clear picture of what I should be doing and feeling.  If you haven't checked out this book yet, and you need to work on your swimming I HIGHLY recommend it.  I have scheduled a challenge to read this book and focus on it from November 15-December 15, so there's that option too (I'm just reading it early cause of my leg thing/inability to really run).

YEEEEAAAAH (sorry, didn't get to this earlier ) couldn't have said it better myself, which is why I just say it over and over.

Anyway, DO NOT let the swim workouts in my logs put anyone off the Swim Speed Workouts program. Remember that I get personal guidance and feedback, so what's in my logs is kind of roided out.

It's 3 workouts a week, super simple, super clear, most of them well under 3K. The third is a long session about 3.5-4K.

Thanks Yanti.  Great, I love the book so much, I will buy the workouts. I may write her a personal thank-you

So, I have some time to be doing a swim "focus" right now.  Swimmers swim 6-10 sessions a week (or something ridiculous), right?  Is this one of those things where more isn't better?  Should I be limiting to 3 days a week? 

Can you clarify for me the breathing thing Chad mentioned.  I can breathe every four, but my times on anything longer than a fifty go down.  I do a blend of 2/3 breathing during races.  Ack?  What's the word here?

Also, how does Kingsley know when to turn in the pool?  How does he swim OWS? 

I want to know more about how all that works when you're blind.

I'll typically breathe every 3 quite a bit, going to 2 shortly here and there if needed or if I'm doing a lot really hard in sequence. If I can do more it usually means I'm not going hard enough. I'll occasionally go longer for a check on breath control, but I don't make a point of it that often. When doing 2, I'll switch sides every 50 or 25. I'm fairly ambidextrous at a lot of things and like keeping the symmetry. During a race, I alternate 3/2 quite often.

For the swimming schedule, I have the 3 times a week at masters and always try to have them as strong, quality swims. When I want to build up more, I've started with a couple more swims and only did what was basically an extended warm-up with some skill work in there. For me, out to 1200-1700 was fine to start. From there I built up more and turn them into more moderate workouts, watching how they affect the 3 quality ones. I really wanted to make sure that the quality ones stayed that way so I always had some solid work in the week. Didn't want to end up with a bunch of moderate to moderately hard work going on. Being a little tired going into masters wasn't necessarily a problem, but it was if I was well off where I should be. You're probably fine to start with that and build up how you see fit. It might go a little faster for you as your overall training load is not as high right now.

With swimming being so skill dependent, frequency matters a lot. When you get the weekly volume built up more I think you'll have some improved fitness to have more flexibility in moving that volume around. So putting in some bigger workouts may come easier then. Adding in another swim of 1500 will likely do more than trying to extend a 3000 out to 4-4,500 at this time.

As always, thanks for your thoughtful answers Ben.  It's really kind of you seasoned vets to help people finding there way

OK.  That feedback on the breathing is helpful.  I feel pretty strong breathing to both sides, though I know breathing to my left is a bit faster.  I will try to do a few more sets every 3 and see how that goes.

Assuming I could have 5 days/week in the water (I could go up to 6 or 7 while my running is limited), and I can swim 3000yds per session now.  How would you structure those days.  Would you keep 3 days with hard sets and the two days that would go inbetween as shorter recovery/drilling sets?  Or could I keep them all at the 3000yd range, but just have the two less intense days be, well, less intense?

Also, Ben, I'm assuming as part of Masters you work your flip turns and streamline pretty hard.  Do you ever purposefully drop these and do nowall sets to simulate more OWS stuff?  I've seen some sets for triathletes written that way, and just am wondering about the impact the wall has on OWS conditioning.  I know I certainly feel it (read that as "dread it") when we go from SCY to LCM.

 

The additional swimming description wasn't an either/or, but how I progressed in adding more in. I started off with something small and easy, and built on that each week up to more a more typical workout. If you're already able to do more than what I started at then go from there. Just make sure you're not falling into a bunch of mediocre work. It's ok if they all turn into hard work. Just make sure you're able to work at a pace that is hard several times a week. Not just that it feels hard, but look at where your splits are coming in at. Kind of like with running. If you did a rather strong ride and then ended up running a few miles at 10-11 min/mi, that might feel quite hard, but is due to being fatigued. That's not actually what your hard running pace is though, which would be your T-pace or I-pace. I think you understand the difference there, so trying to apply similarity to swimming.

I don't really see no-walls as helping anything. I would find it rather irritating. I can carry speed into a turn to make the change of direction, but don't know how to actually make that momentum carry out of the turn. Which means I'd be starting from a stop every time. That sounds even less like open water swimming than coming off the wall with momentum. I honestly have never had a problem going from sets in a pool to open water in the last several years. The transition goes even better when the sets are designed well, when I'm working hard and only have short breaks. Tri swims actually back off a bit from the workout effort and it has not been difficult at all to keep on going. The mental aspect has not been an issue either for the same reason. I've felt this well before starting masters. Things have only improved since in this regard. Some just seem to think too much and should probably get back to their sets.

Have fun! There is a piano bar in Savannah that does a great dueling pianos (at least there was 10 years ago when I was there)