Fred D Mentor Group Part III (Page 45)

I was referencing to Bryancd being banned from posting...hence he's in BT prison right now. 

Nice job by both of you, and now I'm curious.

Ryan - with your long runs only being 8miles, was your longest race distance (stand alone or Tri) a 1/2?  If so how did you feel later in the run?

Jason - while setting the PR's, do you remember whether you were focused on consistency + some longer runs, or moreso the consistency.

I know Arend also had a period of lots of running (daily if I recall), btu it was shorter distances, and that didn't translate as well for an HM.  Correct me if I'm wrong on this statment Arend.

Marc - do you find HR varies with time of day and adjust accordingly, or not really?  My HR is typically higher in the am and lower in the pm.

Good question.  I started with 3-6-9 and then gradually over many months got to 4-8-12 and peaked around 165 miles in December of last year and then ran a winter trail half marathon.  As I continued with the 4-8-12 I started to add in a tempo session for one of the 8 milers while also adding an additional mile to my shorter run.  I started to taper off the long run mainly due to time constraints and as I got more bike intesity heavy I guess.

I think the frequency is the important thing.  I plan to continue with the frequency aspect this winter again, although increasing intensity and lowering volume.  I will see how that works out and report back.  I plan to test (5K) monthly to track progress.

I forgot to answer a couple other questions:

I started this back in September of 2011.  I continued with the plan long run at 12 miles up to my winter trail half marathon in January.  Ended up getting 3rd OA on a very tough hilly course and felt really good - probably my best running shape.

I then cut back on the long run and maybe bi-weekly would run between 9-12 but the other weeks kept it at 8.  I ran a 10K in May and PR'd as well as a 15K in June and PR'd.

My only long run leading up to my HIM in June was 12 or 13 miles and ran a 1:41 in 90 degree day.  I was hoping/expecting to run a 1:35 or under.  I think the time was mostly affected by bike pace and weather but my legs did begin to fatigue in the last 5 miles.

finally, I ran 1:27 Half Marathon last month on less than 30mpw - no long run - basically the 5-8 short/medium run combo and had no issues with leg fatigue.

All that said, I think a long run is a good thing that I will bring back this winter and for race prep in 2013.

I always do my long runs.  Partly because I meet up with my training group so it's also a social thing for me. 

So for me, consistency was focusing on hitting the mid-week runs (which I do solo).  Those are the easiest for me to slack on, and when you're running 5-6 days a week, it's easy to justify in your head that you can skip one or two of them...especially since "nobody will know". 

That's right.  I ran 117 days straight, never more than 12k.  I dropped significant time off both my 5k and 10k best times.  A few months after that I ran a HM after having dropped my weekly running to ~5 times per week and adding longer runs.  The HM hurt bad!  My big mistake there was I was following the Scout "Run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard" plan.... except i left out the "sometimes hard" part.  

I'll add to that by noting my HM PR was during marathon training, when I was right at about 50-60 mpw, and I had some very good tempo running during my mid week runs.

The caveat being...there is no way I safely get up to 50-60 mpw, with "sometimes hard" running without the base I built up from consistancy.

Well done!  FWIW, I've found that I experience the greatest variability in pace at the 5K and 10K distances.  For me, freshness and other aspects of preparation matter a whole lot more than they do for longer distances (as long as I'm rested enough not to explode before the end).

I have the opposite problem.  Sometimes when I miss a run I just cannot let it go and I'm seriously tempted to take unwise measures to make it up. 

Thank you for this discussion. It's very helpful. Running "mostly easy" is so comfortable. It's easy for me to just keep everything at that easy, comfortable, just barely pushing it state.

What does running "hard" look like to you all? I don't mean pace, but more RPE and structure -- a tempo run, lactate threshold (I've not been tested anyway), track intervals? I'm assuming it means something more than fartleks thrown in now and then, but could that also be part of it?

I also need to hear a lot more about this. I want to switch my run training. I do nothing but the same effort runs, for mileage. I know that got me from the couch (more like recliner) to a ridiculously slow half-marathon, but I think it's time to run, run. Even pushing for a 5k pr this summer, I barely got under 40 minutes. I'm never wiped out the way other people are after a 5k, in terms of breath, sweat, etc... I have sore legs after many miles, which is to be expected, carrying 250. 

I've asked this in different ways in tritalk before, but mostly my take-away was that for a beginner, just get the miles in and speed will come. OK, sure. But I want to run hard. I have a HRM but never use it. I think it can't always get a reading on me, with my size. But let's say it can. Most people seem to use a HRM to keep it DOWN for a period of time. I am such an odd trainer, I am sure I need to use it to push myself to get it UP. OK that came out wrong.

With my shift this winter, to focus on weight loss and speed, I plan to push it. Hard. But I probably need more direction than I have taken the last two years, just counting miles. 

Not that much. Maybe a bit at the low end at the beginning of the workout.

I also find it more consistent on the run than the bike for some bizarre reason

I find 45min at 1/2M race pace and 22-25min at 10k pace are pretty hard.

When doing 3-2-1 like plan, I do these as my "2" runs.

I hope some others will chime in.  Here is one response.

'Hard' can take many forms, and fartlek certainly is among them.

Lots of people whom I respect say that at the end of your runs, you should feel like you could do it again. I agree with that metric for most runs.  I disagree with it in two cases: long runs and hard runs.  When I finish a 14 mile run, no way do I feel like I could do it again (I've never run 29 miles...).   But I do feel like I could (if pressed) continue for another 4-5 miles, and I think that's a better metric in the case of long runs.

In the case of hard runs, the effect is more extreme, and I'd suggest that 'being able to do it again' is a standard that could make your hard runs too easy.  If I do, for example, 6x800m, then my standard would be that I feel like I could hold pace for another 1 or 2 repeats.  If I do say, 30 minutes at tempo, then my standard would be that I feel like I could hold pace for another 10-20 minutes if pushed.

How close you push that envelope depends on your resistance to injury and your ability to recover.

Michael.  I agree w/ you.

Claw and others, I just found this link and have this book.  It's good.  Not sure if it is going too deep or not and this is just an excerpt so it may lose you a little.

rundynamics2.webs.com/DRFintervals.pdf

You can calculate your VDOT and corresponding paces here:

http://www.attackpoint.org/trainingpaces.jsp?dist=5000&units=meters&time=02000

I see a couple different types of speed work that I'd classify. There's more but that's the big 3 in my mind.  I'm sure others will chime in with more detail.

Reps - fast running (think 5k or faster pace) w/ equal part rest. More than just strides.  A bit longer and a bit more painful.

VO2 work (fast w/ shorter rest...50-90% of interval time...intervals lasting from 1-6' usually 3-5' is the sweet spot). 

Threshold - Probably the most effective and least cause of local muscular stress.  Less likely to hurt yourself.  Can do intervals w/ short rest (much shorter than VO2 work.  Think 20% recovery time on duration of interval but interval at a pace you could theoretically sustain about an hour.  Use calculator in above link or another one you find (I just found that quick on search but I have the book and there are a lot of references to it.

Good morning everyone, here is your swim training tip of the day.

Always check your pool's website/twitter/facebook before heading to the pool at 5:30 am!  I got to the pool this morning only to find a sign saying it was closed due to a mechanical problem.    This was of course all over their website, facebook, twitter but I didn't check.

Do you mean your results at the 5K and 10K distance vary the most?  Meaning if you are slightly off on a particular day it will have a more significant effect at that distance vs a longer race?  I hardly ever do run only races so my sample size is too small to have much to compare to.

Fred makes a very important point.

edit to add...just got my 5AM hilly 10mi in so check the box for me today.  Those dark early runs aren't so bad when you have people keeping you company.

Wow. The penny just dropped for me. Being new(er) to endurance sports (okay - any sports), I have really been focusing on just completing the distances, getting the base mileage in, etc. After this past summer's results (a great first HIM in June followed by a miserable HIM in September), I was really beaten down thinking I would always be towards the slower end of the pack. I want to get faster, I just don't know how. I feel like I have a fairly good base built up and have started (okay - since last week) throwing in a touch of speed work in biking and running (swim is still focused on form for the short term), but I never really knew how hard to push the intervals...sure, via heart rate...but what should it *feel* like. This sentence totally makes sense to me. Perfect!

Did mine this morning. There was friggin ICE :-(

You should have been in Ontario - wore shorts + long sleeve shirt this morning and was hot after 2km.