SBR "U" (Page 48)

Sounds like the kind of workout that if you can survive that, the race will be a piece of cake.  

Um, I think this is going sideways.  The original discussion was around popping off a strong couple miles on a Friday in the middle of a build block (to another race) with hard work on a Tuesday.

I'm not trying to figure out how to run a 5k within a training block - that was just an example after questions around why my legs would be tired if I'd done a track workout on Tuesday and a tempo on Thursday within a training build and tried to run a 5k with a competitive time on a Friday...  What I'm saying is that during a typical build, I do track work on Tuesdays.  That workout varies across a block (think of it as across 12 weeks).  I also do a tempo run on Thursdays, which I am able to hit just fine.  That's all by way of description to answer why I'm tired by Friday!  

So, to try to get a good time on a Friday (Elaine's original question), with that schedule on a Tuesday/Thursday in the context of a build (or at least what my build's look like), I'd have too much fatigue built up to turn in a good performance.  Hence my suggestion early on that **for me** I would need to limit the amount of speed work (of whatever kind) on Tuesday and temper my tempo on Thursday, in the middle of a larger build, to be able to turn in a good time for a short race on Friday.

The balance of the posts were explaining why that would be true for me in the context of training for another event.  I'm not trying to explain or justify what my training blocks look like and why, just saying what my legs would feel like at the end of a hard week if I was trying for a good time in a short race.  

I was merely offering what I would need to do in the context of the original question - throwing down a competitive time on a Friday time trial and how to maybe adjust THAT week's workouts heading in to it to lay down a good TIME (not good effort) without losing a week's build.

Still and all, a good opportunity to think these things through for me - even if no one else understands what I'm saying.  Elaine, sorry if it has not been helpful.  I've enjoyed thinking about it, but maybe I'll do so more quietly...  

Matt

Ha! Ok. But now I'm really lost on why the heck you didn't just call the Friday 5k a hard tempo, thereby moving Thursday's tempo to Friday!  They're almost the same thing in the larger picture. I mean, what's the time difference on them? You're what, near 20 min or low 20's for the 5k? Is the tempo much longer than 30 min? And I mean the actual tempo part, exclude the warmup or cooldown. The physiological response should be fairly similar, just more for the minute with the 5k race as it's harder.

Track work tends push a bit different (though still related) area and would tend to keep that session intact as much as possible. Anything else to consider?

My head hurts lol

But actually, I have to agree with Ben. I'd just sub that Friday 5K as my tempo. A typical tempo I do with my team is usually 20-24 minutes maybe, depending on the goal pace etc. Even If I ran the 5K in the upper 18s, low 19s, that is going to provide a very similar adaption as a 20-24 minute tempo, 20 seconds slower than 5K pace.  

If you wanted just a little bit more actual working time you could most definitely do some turnover drills or something after the race.

Wait...what...you're supposed to take the wetsuit off? 

Body Glide is your friend - apply to you, and possibly the suit, and things will be much easier in T1.

(Wetsuit.JPG)

Quite the list of seasons people here have.  Very diverse, which is cool - should make for a great set of RRs!

Mine is more concrete for the first half of the season:

Cap10k this Sunday
Life is good in the 'Wood 5k April 17th (a small race in our new neighborhood)
70.3 Galveston April 26th
CapTex Tri Olympic Memorial day weekend
Triple Oly in Sweden June 27th
Falmouth Sprint in MA July 15th (or so)
LifeTime Austin Oly Labor Day weekend

Then it gets a bit less clear, but probably will try to do both Redman 70.3 the end of September and Austin 70.3 in early November.  Depends on whether I need a break by then...  Haven't registered for the July on races, but probably will this week.  The others are locked in (fate allowing - I've at least registered!).

Matt

I agree with the above.  Definitely a personal thing, in terms of how you respond and what kind of fatigue you're bringing in. 

I can only share what has worked for me, as well, and you'll get better at knowing how you respond with a bit of practice.  That said, 50-60% total volume of previous weeks for an Oly sounds **about** right (a good first pass, certainly).  I would also suggest making these workouts easy but with intervals of race intensity in the middle of the session.  NOT faster than race pace intervals, but something like 3x90" at race pace in the first workout of the week, then 2x90" at race pace at the next one with those intervals in the middle of the workouts (assuming a couple of each s/b/r workouts across the first few days of the week).  Then a day off and a day before race day as below, perhaps.

Also, some people do better with the day prior to the race off and others like to take the day before the day before off.  I used to take the day prior off, but found my legs took a little longer to come up to speed than if I (like Marc said above) took the day two days prior completely off (or a light swim with maybe 2x100 at race pace) and then did a bike and run the day prior, each with about 1x90" at race pace (NOT faster - it feels easy, but that's OK) in the middle of a short warm up and short warm down.  Maybe 20' each.  Just what has worked for me for the days immediately prior. 

Your mileage WILL vary, but all of these are decent suggestions and pretty similar, so you should be able to get an idea of what to try.

Bodyglide is certainly good, but the best product I've ever used (and it helps get my wetsuit off faster than a tux on prom night) is something called SuitJuice.  We initially found it to get the kids in and out of their wetsuits, back when we lived by cold water, and I've been using it on my arms, shoulders and calves/ankles the last couple years to really good effect.

I practice T1 in my mind before pretty much every race.  Swimming until my hands touch the ground.  Standing, putting my goggle up and unzipping my back.  Grabbing my goggles and cap.  Taking my arms out while running to T1. etc. all the way through mounting the bike at the line and how I'll get my feet in my shoes and settle in on the bike.  I do it several times in my head after I've seen the transition setup (so I think about the landmarks to get me to my bike location), and it makes race morning easier for me.  I also do it when I'm packing for the race, so I don't forget things!

Have fun!

Matt

C'mon, this is just getting fun!  LOL!  Really, I appreciate the back and forth.

The initial thing was that for me, I'd want to limit a track session on Tuesday if I wanted to turn in my "best performance" on a Friday of a training block.  Ben, I agree they're not exactly the same (track and a tempo run), and I would do just what you suggest if I was maximizing my adaptation for that week.  In fact, I have a 5k next Friday and it will fall pretty much exactly into this and I'll do pretty much exactly what you both say!   I just was responding to what I think is a slightly different question from Elaine that I interpreted as really cranking a 2-miler on Friday during a build block.

For me to turn in my best time (and Salty, that might only be 20"/mile faster than swapping my tempo run), I'd need to limit work on Tuesday or I might be a little flat on Friday.  But that's splitting hairs somewhat - the difference among "best time without tapering," "best time," and "decent time while maintaining adaptation toward another goal" - so I'll relent. 

All very good and constructive, at least for me.  So, thanks!

I'll let you know how the 10k this weekend and the 5k next week go. 

And good luck Elaine!

Matt

I found that for me I need to stay active and I normally prefer not to take a full day off.  Perhaps an active recovery day where I do something pretty easy with a couple of hard efforts thrown in.  I never want to take the day off before a race for the fear of coming out flat on race day, and on the actual day of the race everyone is again different, but if I have the option I like to get out on the bike for 15-20min.  If that's not possible then I'll run a bit + the warm-up swim.

Excellent point on the race day warm-up.  It's part of the taper/race prep.  For me, I like a short jog with a couple short strides and the swim warmup for a sprint.  For an Oly or HIM I usually drop the jog but really like to swim if at all possible (same thing - smooth with a couple accelerations to race start pace, but short ones).  Riding is nice, if you don't have to rack the night before, but not always possible.  Of the three, it's the one I benefit from least on race day (at least by how it feels).  Just my approach.  As you say, everyone is different!

Matt

Karen, as I was half way through reading your post my thought was "I bet it's a Cycleops Fluid trainer".  I've read several people say they have a very sudden and noticeable shift in resistance with that unit.  My wife uses one and while she doesn't get the sudden change, there is a clear change in resistance as it heats up - it's very visible in a speed vs. power graph.

I'm lucky that with the exception of the HIM's I've done I'm always able to take the bike out of transition pre-race.  I didn't always warn-up on the bike in the past but was finding in some races I couldn't get the legs to respond and it was taking a while to get going - obviously in Sprint and Olympics every second counts and I found that getting in a few harder efforts before hand just prepped me better.  That said, I don't see many people riding pre-race with most just doing the swim warm-up, with some others getting in a short run as well.  I'd say the majority don't do anything before getting in the water.

<p> I had the same thought. I use a Fluid2. The increase in resistance is sudden and typically happens 20-30 mins into a workout (assuming a 10 min easy warm up).  I don't have a PM but the impact is ~ 5 to 7 watts via virtual power using golden cheetah or TR. Fwiw my FTP is 149 using virtual power so ~ 5%.  I don't do anything to correct for it. I just know it's going to happen and realize that I may not be able to hold targets @ 100% once it happens although it probably skews my 20 min tests somewhat. 

I didn't used to think the bike warm-up mattered either, but late last season and looking back over previous results I found it did help. All the best splits/executions came with at least some sort of on the bike warm-up even if it was just super easy riding to transition.

I've really become a big believer in a good swim warmup.  I used to just swing my arms a few times and maybe a tiny swim if time permitted but last year I had two races where I had lots of time to actually get in a swim warmup and it really seemed to help.  Especially at Barrelman - easily the best feeling swim I've had in a tri and I got in a good 10-15 mins there as they had plenty of space to allow for it.

Ditto.  Had the same thing happen many times, but not always.  Will usually happen between 10 and 30 minutes in.  Sometimes remains hard, other times will only be for a minute or two (which is harder to figure) and might happen a couple times.  I have a PM and notice a change of 15-20W holding the same gear/cadence combination typically.  I just adjust and hold the power, but it's clearly noticeable and backed up by the PM when it happens.

I've also noticed the slow drift up in resistance as the unit warms, but that seems to level off between 20-40 minutes or so.  Monkeys with my cadence during an interval (or makes my W spikey if it's the sudden change), but I've gotten mostly used to it at this point.  It does factor in to my wanting a new trainer (maybe a "smart trainer"), which I've been considering for over a year, so it's clear that it's a want for me and not a need!

Without a PM, it would be a strange feeling and tough to know when it's my legs shutting down or the trainer... 

Matt

Hmmm... OK, gonna try a bike warmup when able as well.  I'll take ANY help I can get. 

Matt

yeah, I'd rate a decent swim warm-up as notably more important. It's first and it's the most technical. The other two can get the blood flowing, but they really don't get the arms truly loosened up for a good swim even though I've been able to turn out power fairly quick. I don't know a run warm-up actually helps me as the bike would tend to override that anyway.

For the actual "fast centuries" for me that means a course with 4000~4500' of elevation spread fairly consistently (rolling) over the 100 miles, as well as groups of riders that are ready to hit it. Not all centuries around these parts have such groups - you have to know which do and which don't. In the best "fast centuries" I am not strong enough to ride with the 'A' group, and figuring out the 'B' group can often be kind of tricky. I start out by looking for the guys and gals with a couple of bottles on their frames and one or two more stuck in their jerseys (hint: ignore the ones that have bottle stuck all over their frames, those are all triathletes and they usually stop at every aid station to gorge themselves on food - heh). So all that said if I hit the right group shooting for 4:30 would be very good for me!

I think this weekend I am going to ride the 62 mile option - while I could make 100 miles by riding easy enough, I don’t think I could make it the whole way with the B group. Getting blown off the back at mile 70 and then limping the rest of the way home doesn’t sound like much fun. Although this century is know regionally for aid stations, so maybe that wouldn't be so bad toward the end (see comment above about triathletes and food).