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So why is it???? (Page 5)
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 2009-08-25 1:16 PM in reply to: #2369689 |
 Alpharetta, Georgia Bronze member |  Subject: RE: So why is it????JohnnyKay - 2009-08-25 1:10 PM lisac957 - 2009-08-25 1:47 PM it's hard to not interpret that as anything but a judgement. It may be hard, but I believe you should understand this is somebody trying to expess their feelings--often a tricky thing to do. Your post reads far more like a judgement than his, IMO. How, exactly? All I've said in these threads is that everyone has different goals and aspirations - and that you can't read a book by its cover (ie: why someone is not trying as hard as YOU think they should). I'd think that is something we can all agree on, but apparently not. I'm not the one putting people in buckets or classes. |
| 2009-08-25 1:29 PM in reply to: #2369681 |
Champion  9600    Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: So why is it???? BikerGrrrl - 2009-08-25 1:07 PM I think it's too funny that we are so easily putting people into these buckets Oh no, not transition buckets again!!!!  |
| 2009-08-25 1:30 PM in reply to: #2369707 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: So why is it???? lisac957 - 2009-08-25 1:16 PM I'm not the one putting people in buckets or classes. And another!!!!! This thread is dead meat!!! |
| 2009-08-25 1:31 PM in reply to: #2369707 |
Not a Coach 11473  Media, PA | Subject: RE: So why is it???? lisac957 - 2009-08-25 2:16 PM JohnnyKay - 2009-08-25 1:10 PM lisac957 - 2009-08-25 1:47 PM it's hard to not interpret that as anything but a judgement. It may be hard, but I believe you should understand this is somebody trying to expess their feelings--often a tricky thing to do. Your post reads far more like a judgement than his, IMO. How, exactly? All I've said in these threads is that everyone has different goals and aspirations - and that you can't read a book by its cover (ie: why someone is not trying as hard as YOU think they should). I'd think that is something we can all agree on, but apparently not. I'm not the one putting people in buckets or classes. I have no problem with your thoughts on the subject. Not sure anybody else does here either from what I have read (despite the arguments it's created). It sounded to me like you felt the other poster was judging other competitors. I read it as him struggling to understand the motivation of some (and letting it bother him--which, I admit, I have a hard time understanding myself). Not understanding (and/or thinking that you wouldn't do something that somebody else does) is not, by itself, a judgment of their actions. Questioning those motivations is also not necessarily a judgement. But often in doing so, you can raise their defenses, as questioning can make someone feel as if they need to defend their motives. And they may feel as if they are being judged (whether they are or aren't). Just my thoughts. |
| 2009-08-25 1:35 PM in reply to: #2369595 |
Elite 4048 Gilbert, Az. | Subject: RE: So why is it???? mrmcmasty - 2009-08-25 10:43 AM Since nobody saw fit to second my vote to table the discussion I have concluded that we should drop the endurance discussion about BOP, MOP, FOP and round up the disgruntled, don some 8oz gloves, close the cage door and see who runs the fastest after fifteen minutes of MMA fighting... yes you have to transition with your gloves on! If you submit or knock out your opponent prior the fifteen minute period conclusion then you may begin your run without your opponent. and in this corner... Oh, I so bet on me. :D :D :D John |
| 2009-08-25 1:41 PM in reply to: #2368971 |
Master 2404 Redlands, CA | Subject: RE: So why is it???? You guys are missing the point about 'It doesn't get easier, you only get faster.' Its a reference to cycling, specifically TT'ing and climbing in a competitive setting. Lance and Levi suffer just as much as you guys do during thier races. I think the fop hate is by a loud minority, and it may be jealousy or bad experiences with fop'ers, but the Tri community is far from elitist compared to say, the cycling community. |
| 2009-08-25 1:43 PM in reply to: #2369784 |
Champion 6962 Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: So why is it???? tkd.teacher - 2009-08-25 2:35 PM mrmcmasty - 2009-08-25 10:43 AM Since nobody saw fit to second my vote to table the discussion I have concluded that we should drop the endurance discussion about BOP, MOP, FOP and round up the disgruntled, don some 8oz gloves, close the cage door and see who runs the fastest after fifteen minutes of MMA fighting... yes you have to transition with your gloves on! If you submit or knock out your opponent prior the fifteen minute period conclusion then you may begin your run without your opponent. and in this corner... Oh, I so bet on me. :D :D :D John I'm putting my money on you too! And that's if we were in the match. |
| 2009-08-25 1:44 PM in reply to: #2369814 |
| Subject: RE: So why is it???? Marvarnett - 2009-08-25 2:43 PM tkd.teacher - 2009-08-25 2:35 PM mrmcmasty - 2009-08-25 10:43 AM Since nobody saw fit to second my vote to table the discussion I have concluded that we should drop the endurance discussion about BOP, MOP, FOP and round up the disgruntled, don some 8oz gloves, close the cage door and see who runs the fastest after fifteen minutes of MMA fighting... yes you have to transition with your gloves on! If you submit or knock out your opponent prior the fifteen minute period conclusion then you may begin your run without your opponent. and in this corner... Oh, I so bet on me. :D :D :D John I'm putting my money on you too! And that's if we were in the match. But, wait...can't you do anything you put your mind to?
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| 2009-08-25 1:47 PM in reply to: #2369811 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: So why is it???? furiousferret - 2009-08-25 1:41 PM Lance and Levi suffer just as much as you guys do during thier races. In my best Jeff Spicoli imitation voice "Those guy's are fag's!" |
| 2009-08-25 1:50 PM in reply to: #2369811 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: So why is it???? furiousferret - 2009-08-25 2:41 PM ..... but the Tri community is far from elitist compared to say, the cycling community. I'll disagree with that as well as the people I used to race against back in my cycling days may have been cocky, but none were "elitist" per se. The Cat. 4 guys were usually the ones that bordered on elitist, which is silly since they are basically just a step above the newer athletes that come to the sport as Cat. 5's. It was always fun to watch the really cocky ones move up to the 1/2/3 field and get their azzes handed to them and eat a little humble pie. Usually changed their attitudes quite a bit and fast! |
| 2009-08-25 2:02 PM in reply to: #2369674 |
Buttercup 14334 | Subject: RE: So why is it???? madcow - 2009-08-25 2:05 PM Interesting discussion Ain't it? I was actually thinking of you as I was scanning through the thread. |
| 2009-08-25 2:09 PM in reply to: #2369811 |
Master 1404 Saratoga Springs, Utah | Subject: RE: So why is it???? furiousferret - 2009-08-25 12:41 PM You guys are missing the point about 'It doesn't get easier, you only get faster.' Its a reference to cycling, specifically TT'ing and climbing in a competitive setting. Lance and Levi suffer just as much as you guys do during thier races. I think the fop hate is by a loud minority, and it may be jealousy or bad experiences with fop'ers, but the Tri community is far from elitist compared to say, the cycling community. They may suffer just as much but not as long. |
| 2009-08-25 2:11 PM in reply to: #2369845 |
Champion 15211 Southern Chicago Suburbs, IL | Subject: RE: So why is it???? Daremo - 2009-08-25 1:50 PM furiousferret - 2009-08-25 2:41 PM ..... but the Tri community is far from elitist compared to say, the cycling community. I'll disagree with that as well as the people I used to race against back in my cycling days may have been cocky, but none were "elitist" per se. The Cat. 4 guys were usually the ones that bordered on elitist, which is silly since they are basically just a step above the newer athletes that come to the sport as Cat. 5's. It was always fun to watch the really cocky ones move up to the 1/2/3 field and get their azzes handed to them and eat a little humble pie. Usually changed their attitudes quite a bit and fast! I agree with you Rick. Knowing many Cat 2, 3 and 4 cyclists myself, they are far from elitist. And I think THIS attitude is EXACTLY what you are talking about. Now, all of that being said, may individuals perceptions are shaped by their experiences. I've had experiences with some jag offs in cycling, just like I have had experiences with jag offs in triathlons. Does that mean that both of full of 'em? Doubt it. I think, in reality, it is a persons perception of another group, class, division is what shapes their opinion of said group, class, division, whether that opinion is wrong or right. FOP v MOP v BOP. |
| 2009-08-25 2:19 PM in reply to: #2368971 |
Regular 534 Philadelphia | Subject: RE: So why is it???? So why is it???? Here's why. Insert any discussion, any place, on any topic: 1) Person who classes themselves in Group 8 makes an ambiguous statement or a generalization 2) Person who classes themselves in Group H reads the statement in a particular way and takes offense at that reading, or reads the generalization such that it includes them and they take offense 3) Some people agree with Group 8 person and say Group H person misunderstood or is wrong 4) Some people agree with Group H person and say Group 8 person doesn't get it or is wrong Group 8 person may have intended to be ambiguous, or not. They may have intended to over-generalize, or not. Group H person may have been looking for a fight, or not. They may have decided to find the reading they wanted, or not. Can "those people" be just a pronoun, and "I don't understand" simply indicate a lack of understanding, and "I respect your efforts but it's not what I would do" mean only that? Yes. Can they also be euphemisms for nastier and more judgmental thoughts? Yes. Is either assumption automatically correct? No. Who's more responsible for the "correct" interpretation, the speaker or the listener? Depends. (For most people, the side you disagree with was responsible for messing up the other side.) Does context help? Well, we're on page 6... |
| 2009-08-25 2:25 PM in reply to: #2369918 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: So why is it???? Silver Bullet - 2009-08-25 3:19 PM So why is it???? Here's why. Insert any discussion, any place, on any topic: 1) Person who classes themselves in Group 8 makes an ambiguous statement or a generalization 2) Person who classes themselves in Group H reads the statement in a particular way and takes offense at that reading, or reads the generalization such that it includes them and they take offense 3) Some people agree with Group 8 person and say Group H person misunderstood or is wrong 4) Some people agree with Group H person and say Group 8 person doesn't get it or is wrong Group 8 person may have intended to be ambiguous, or not. They may have intended to over-generalize, or not. Group H person may have been looking for a fight, or not. They may have decided to find the reading they wanted, or not. Can "those people" be just a pronoun, and "I don't understand" simply indicate a lack of understanding, and "I respect your efforts but it's not what I would do" mean only that? Yes. Can they also be euphemisms for nastier and more judgmental thoughts? Yes. Is either assumption automatically correct? No. Who's more responsible for the "correct" interpretation, the speaker or the listener? Depends. (For most people, the side you disagree with was responsible for messing up the other side.) Does context help? Well, we're on page 6... Nice. A better expression of the point I tried to (fruitlessly) make. It's not just "FOP"/"BOP" or "races"/"finishers" or whatever. It's just a way people interact. Which you may judge to be a good or bad thing.  Now, where's that beer? |
| 2009-08-25 2:27 PM in reply to: #2368971 |
Cycling Guru 15134 Fulton, MD | Subject: RE: So why is it???? Nectar of the Gods ........... (Guinness.jpg) Attachments ---------------- Guinness.jpg (45KB - 0 downloads) |
| 2009-08-25 2:27 PM in reply to: #2369820 |
Champion 6962 Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: So why is it???? wurkit_gurl - 2009-08-25 2:44 PM Marvarnett - 2009-08-25 2:43 PM tkd.teacher - 2009-08-25 2:35 PM mrmcmasty - 2009-08-25 10:43 AM Since nobody saw fit to second my vote to table the discussion I have concluded that we should drop the endurance discussion about BOP, MOP, FOP and round up the disgruntled, don some 8oz gloves, close the cage door and see who runs the fastest after fifteen minutes of MMA fighting... yes you have to transition with your gloves on! If you submit or knock out your opponent prior the fifteen minute period conclusion then you may begin your run without your opponent. and in this corner... Oh, I so bet on me. :D :D :D John I'm putting my money on you too! And that's if we were in the match. But, wait...can't you do anything you put your mind to?
YES...and I put my mind to not getting my Arse whipped from one side to the other. |
| 2009-08-25 2:29 PM in reply to: #2369954 |
| Subject: RE: So why is it???? Marvarnett - 2009-08-25 3:27 PM wurkit_gurl - 2009-08-25 2:44 PM Marvarnett - 2009-08-25 2:43 PM tkd.teacher - 2009-08-25 2:35 PM mrmcmasty - 2009-08-25 10:43 AM Since nobody saw fit to second my vote to table the discussion I have concluded that we should drop the endurance discussion about BOP, MOP, FOP and round up the disgruntled, don some 8oz gloves, close the cage door and see who runs the fastest after fifteen minutes of MMA fighting... yes you have to transition with your gloves on! If you submit or knock out your opponent prior the fifteen minute period conclusion then you may begin your run without your opponent. and in this corner... Oh, I so bet on me. :D :D :D John I'm putting my money on you too! And that's if we were in the match. But, wait...can't you do anything you put your mind to?
YES...and I put my mind to not getting my Arse whipped from one side to the other. That doesn't seem like overcoming a challenge/weakness to me... (see my point?) |
| 2009-08-25 2:31 PM in reply to: #2369472 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: So why is it???? Rogillio - 2009-08-25 10:12 AM So for me, it is about the participation not the podium. I don't care if I ever get faster. If I busted my arse the best I would ever be would be a MOPer. I don't swim intervals or use buoys or paddles. I just jump in and swim and enjoy being one with the wate. I don't run intervals or do speed work or hill work or repeats. I just go out on the road and run and enjoy being outside in the fresh air in this beautiful world we live in. When I ride, I just get on my bike and ride. Sometimes I weave between the reflectors on the road like I used to do when I was a kid. And maybe once or twice a year I'll show up at a race with real athletes and act like I belong in their club. ~Mike Okay, thanks for the in-depth response, Mike...helpful context. My only comment in response is to emphasize that it is possible (note: "possible" not "necessary") to retain the feeling of being one with the water and other sorts of pure, transcendent, experience while also competing. I think that also is a place where a false division between "FOP" and "BOP" gets established (i.e., you can't "have fun" if you are "racing")...the smile on Chrissie Wellington's face deep in the IM run is a pretty good sign of that, I think. Again, everyone's different (which is pretty much the point of this thread, really): Some folks do this stuff to see how much suffering they can tolerate, some do it to "finish with a smile", and many (most?) do it for some weird mix of both...I think... Thanks again for the response. |
| 2009-08-25 2:37 PM in reply to: #2369771 |
Expert 632 Cornfields of Illinois | Subject: RE: So why is it???? JohnnyKay - 2009-08-25 1:31 PM lisac957 - 2009-08-25 2:16 PM JohnnyKay - 2009-08-25 1:10 PM lisac957 - 2009-08-25 1:47 PM it's hard to not interpret that as anything but a judgement. It may be hard, but I believe you should understand this is somebody trying to expess their feelings--often a tricky thing to do. Your post reads far more like a judgement than his, IMO. How, exactly? All I've said in these threads is that everyone has different goals and aspirations - and that you can't read a book by its cover (ie: why someone is not trying as hard as YOU think they should). I'd think that is something we can all agree on, but apparently not. I'm not the one putting people in buckets or classes. I have no problem with your thoughts on the subject. Not sure anybody else does here either from what I have read (despite the arguments it's created). It sounded to me like you felt the other poster was judging other competitors. I read it as him struggling to understand the motivation of some (and letting it bother him--which, I admit, I have a hard time understanding myself). Not understanding (and/or thinking that you wouldn't do something that somebody else does) is not, by itself, a judgment of their actions. Questioning those motivations is also not necessarily a judgement. But often in doing so, you can raise their defenses, as questioning can make someone feel as if they need to defend their motives. And they may feel as if they are being judged (whether they are or aren't). Just my thoughts. i read his post the same way lisa did and felt that he DOES judge people like myself who are just getting started and are SLOW and still sometimes walking during the run . He doesn't know my motivation, my background, etc. so i would say that when the comment "I'm also guilty of being upset when I see people out on the course who aren't competing" he IS judging (which he is entitled to do and admits that maybe that's his problem to deal with, which i agree) and should realized that I AM COMPETING within myself to finish in the BEST TIME I CAN FINISH. As i continue to train i will hopefully get faster over time but that's my pride to deal with, no one elses. And he doesn't have to care about people like me, i will still tell him great job as he passes me. You want to understand me? tell me great job as you ride or run by me or lie to me and tell me I am looking good  then finish your race in the best time you can just as I will (oh, and can you leave me a banana) |
| 2009-08-25 2:44 PM in reply to: #2369168 |
Expert 632 Cornfields of Illinois | Subject: RE: So why is it???? mr2tony - 2009-08-25 10:41 AM I was once accused of consuming all the water in a certain Chicago Marathon in 2007 simply so the BOPers wouldn't have any water. I wasn't thinking `Gee I'll take an extra cup just so others can't have it. MUAHAHAHAHAHA!!!' I was thinking `Gee I'll take an extra cup so I don't DIE!' So it was you stealing the water cups in my race, i can't believe a fellow illinoisan would do that to me. Slight highjack, i was running BOP at a race in Nashville TN and as i came upon the first water station i see the volunteer putting a big stack of cups on the table and another volunteer filling them as fast as possible which i thought was cool UNTIL i rounded the corner of the nearby building from the water table and saw a different volunteer scrambling around to pick up the used water cups off the ground that were in good shape and stacking them up and taking them to the water station to be reused!! needless to say i didn't finish that water |
| 2009-08-25 2:48 PM in reply to: #2369987 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: So why is it???? bulldog520 - 2009-08-25 3:37 PM i read his post the same way lisa did and felt that he DOES judge people like myself who are just getting started and are SLOW and still sometimes walking during the run . And that's my point. You read a post and made an assumption. Which may be correct. Or not. |
| 2009-08-25 2:51 PM in reply to: #2369182 |
| Regular 59 Bronze member | Subject: RE: So why is it???? You asked for the reason for the continual FOB/BOP discussion and misperceptions and I'm telling you, this is a quintessential example. I perceive that 'it never get's easier' comment as ST, FOP, elite, bravado, BS. And you do not. So there you have it. :-) ~Mike It's interesting that you perceive this quote as bravado or bs, because I found it to be one of the most helpful to me in my training recently. For perspective, I'm sort of MOP in tris, except in running where I'm definitely BOP. I've been pushing 11 or 12 minute miles for years. I'm one of those people who runs the same pace for a standalone 5k, a 5k in a sprint, and a half marathon. I have my pace, and that's how I run. Granted, running that pace has gotten significantly easier over the years, and I've come to enjoy running, but still I'm gawd awful slow. But about two months ago, I saw this quote and thought about what it means, and it got me thinking about what my capabilities are and what I can expect for myself in training. I had been assuming that the more I run, the easier it would get, which obviously was true in terms of comfort. But then I thought, what if I was willing to tough it out on some runs and suffer more. Since then, I've broken the 9 minute mile barrier (still painfully slow compared to others, but a significant improvement for me), and I can tell that over time, it will get easier, and I will probably eventually get faster. Now I actually have different paces so that I can run a LSD and do a tempo run, and the LSD is enjoyable, and the tempo run hurts, but hell its a lot shorter than that LSD. I think that I didn't realize before that elites/ FOPs/ everyone faster than me might be hurting in races. I thought I only hurt because I just wasn't good enough/ fast enough/ fit enough. It was an eye opener, and I really appreciated the insight. As to the original question about why this tension between the groups, I'm not sure I can answer it. This is my first year of tris, I mostly lurk around BT, but I've seen this tension in the threads, and can say I find it strange. I suspect that part of it has to do with the medium of communication, that we are mostly anonymous (I know some BTers get together, but as a whole its a virtual community), we are probably typing away on a computer while at work, and it can be easy to misinterpret something someone wrote quickly. Because it seems like in general the tension that people identify on the website doesn't really play out in person or in races (and I say generally, because of course we've all encountered "fastholes" and also BOP jerks too - some people are jerks regardless of their speed). Just my two cents. Erica |
| 2009-08-25 2:55 PM in reply to: #2368971 |
Pro 3804 Seacoast, NH! | Subject: RE: So why is it???? I'm so new to this sport, it took me half-way through this thread to figure out what FOP, MOP, and BOP meant. Looks like we can expect one thing out of athletes of all level. And that thing is energy. The energy creates passion and the passion is what directly links us to how we react. Whether it be a self-confidence issue or a simply mis-use of words, things can be construde or interpretted incorrectly. With that said....seems to me that everyone that is "serious" about this sport treats it as a sort of religion. And like religion everyone in this category grabs ahold of it with a different intensity. If you find that someone has absconded with your faith, then you should simply look at the foundation of that faith. Remember that everyone doing this sport is doing it for a different reason, sometimes that reason is very, very close to another person's reason....sometimes not. That is going to have to okay with you. Remember to have faith that in the end we are in this to dig something out of ourselves. Remember that the BOP, MOP and FOP have more in common than you would think looking at the finish times, or split times. Daremo has a point here....looks like when we are not in the middle of a race or at an event, we have a tendency to forget one thing. We have all come together, some more competitively, to achieve that goal of pushing ourselves. That is a great thing. I applaud you all for tri-ing. Everyone from the back to the front. It's that simple. Not really worth arguing about once you realize the commonality of it. You are doing something great. |
| 2009-08-25 2:56 PM in reply to: #2368971 |
Champion 6786 Two seat rocket plane | Subject: RE: So why is it???? I bailed on reading the entire thread at page 6. Here's my take as someone who has been racing MTB's, running, and Tris for 15 years. We all have different abilitites, except for those of us who have similar abilities. Run, bike, swim, eat, drink, sleep, work, play |
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