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2013-01-24 9:50 AM
in reply to: #4592643

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
bzgl40 - 2013-01-24 11:22 AM
axteraa - 2013-01-24 8:17 AM
TankBoy - 2013-01-24 10:47 AM
axteraa - 2013-01-24 9:32 AM

I guarantee you I get little to no propulsion from my kick while I swim.  It is purely a balance thing for me - I suspect it is why I don't kick with a wetsuit on.  

What you notice about your fast being barely faster than strong despite the significant increase in effort is somewhat common I think.  I swim with a guy who is a decent swimmer (1:01 IM) and he can do a good strong swim pace all day but as soon as he tries to go fast, his stroke just goes out the window.  He just starts spinning his wheels, it seems like he is trying to increase his turnover but the way that he does it is by shortening his stroke.

Arend - I think you just described me to a T - any pointers?

I'm not sure what the standard approach would be but my instinct would be to initially limit the fast swimming to 25s or 50s so you can focus purely on maintaining the same stroke as what you do in strong with more turnover.  It might also be worthwhile to try dialling your fast back just a bit to see if that makes a difference.

do you think a tempo trainer would work, using it to slowly build up the speed via tempo changes?

I only know a little about them based on what Suzanne has posted in TT but the idea is interesting.  I think it would require some outside help from someone familiar with training with it to really get good use out of it.  I may be over thinking it though.



2013-01-24 10:11 AM
in reply to: #4543084

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
I'm part of the faster = ugly group.  A whole lot more effort for very little actual speed gain, and me exhausted.  Swimming fast(er) while focusing on technique is tough to do.  At least for me.
2013-01-24 10:15 AM
in reply to: #4592735

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

GoFaster - 2013-01-24 12:11 PM I'm part of the faster = ugly group.  A whole lot more effort for very little actual speed gain, and me exhausted.  Swimming fast(er) while focusing on technique is tough to do.  At least for me.

It's very tough, which is why my instinct is to limit it to very short repeats.  Something like 10x25 on 1:00 - something that gives you lots of time to recover.

2013-01-24 10:27 AM
in reply to: #4592748

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

To add to my previous post.  

If your goal is to swim fast 100s at a 1:20 pace (for simplified math), try to swim the 10x25 so that you complete each 25 in 20 seconds but do it by maintaining and focusing on form rather than just busting a gut.  Once you can do that reliably, go to 5x50 with a goal of 40 second 50s, then 60 second 75s.  This would have to happen over time but it may help you get over the problem of technique going out the window in the strong => fast area.

2013-01-24 10:55 AM
in reply to: #4592586

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

bzgl40 - 2013-01-24 7:01 AM All I have to say about swimming and your kick is I have a pretty darn good kick.  However, I am slow as crap.  I will give any of you sub 1:30 (oh hell, sub 1:45) folks my kick if you give me your speed.  Tongue out

Hah, me too.  I don't work on my kick, per se.  But when we do kick sets in my Master's swim sessions, I'm usually one of the faster ones.  Then we do pull sets....and I'm silly slow.  For just plain swimming, I guess that puts me as "okay". 

My coach said I don't have any glaring errors in my stroke and need to just work on endurance, but I suspect there's something (major?) in there...

2013-01-24 11:34 AM
in reply to: #4592699

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
axteraa - 2013-01-24 10:50 AM
bzgl40 - 2013-01-24 11:22 AM
axteraa - 2013-01-24 8:17 AM
TankBoy - 2013-01-24 10:47 AM
axteraa - 2013-01-24 9:32 AM

I guarantee you I get little to no propulsion from my kick while I swim.  It is purely a balance thing for me - I suspect it is why I don't kick with a wetsuit on.  

What you notice about your fast being barely faster than strong despite the significant increase in effort is somewhat common I think.  I swim with a guy who is a decent swimmer (1:01 IM) and he can do a good strong swim pace all day but as soon as he tries to go fast, his stroke just goes out the window.  He just starts spinning his wheels, it seems like he is trying to increase his turnover but the way that he does it is by shortening his stroke.

Arend - I think you just described me to a T - any pointers?

I'm not sure what the standard approach would be but my instinct would be to initially limit the fast swimming to 25s or 50s so you can focus purely on maintaining the same stroke as what you do in strong with more turnover.  It might also be worthwhile to try dialling your fast back just a bit to see if that makes a difference.

do you think a tempo trainer would work, using it to slowly build up the speed via tempo changes?

I only know a little about them based on what Suzanne has posted in TT but the idea is interesting.  I think it would require some outside help from someone familiar with training with it to really get good use out of it.  I may be over thinking it though.

I've never seen any over think on this thread...



2013-01-24 11:54 AM
in reply to: #4592777

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
axteraa - 2013-01-24 10:27 AM

To add to my previous post.  

If your goal is to swim fast 100s at a 1:20 pace (for simplified math), try to swim the 10x25 so that you complete each 25 in 20 seconds but do it by maintaining and focusing on form rather than just busting a gut.  Once you can do that reliably, go to 5x50 with a goal of 40 second 50s, then 60 second 75s.  This would have to happen over time but it may help you get over the problem of technique going out the window in the strong => fast area.

 

So, on the HTFU scale, I swam outdoors today at -4C today.

Maybe it explains the atrocious pace I was holding. Nope. It isn't weather related. I have perfected the 0 beat kick (patent pending)

2013-01-24 12:08 PM
in reply to: #4543084

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

I can hold 1:20s all day at an easy pace, 1:15s for 10-15 100s, and I have to say I have a weak to nonexistent kick.  It's there for balance only.  Not sure what it would be called, but it's also very lopsided as I really only kick a couple times when my right arm goes in the water.  In a wetsuit I certainly don't kick at all and al my races are wetsuit races.  Perhaps I could gain another second or two per hundred developng a kick, but at this point it's not worth it to me when I can spend my time getting my run down to something resembling a decent time

just my .02

Anyone catch the open water swim series given by Gerry Rodrigues?  One of the premiere OW coaches here in L.A., he advocates not worrying about the kick.  Google is name and open water swimming, there's about 15-16 parts to the series (one talk broken up into 10 or so minute segments)

2013-01-24 12:12 PM
in reply to: #4543084

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

The things we do.....   Last night I had an "optional" run on the calendar.  Rode in the a.m. so it would have to have been in the evening.  Was also thinking about going to Staples, a few blocks from my office, to see Muse.  Brought concert and run clothes, depending, since it would have to be one or the other. 

Ended up buying a ticket that I had to go about a mile to the Stubhub office to pick up.  Left work, changed into my run clothes in the parking lot, ran there (actually a bit past to get a full :30), picked up the ticket, ran back to work, changed in the car into jeans and t shirt, and walked to Staples for the show (great show, btw).

Ran again this morning in the rain and cold, swimming tonight

Turns out we can have it all, after all

2013-01-24 12:20 PM
in reply to: #4591074

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
bzgl40 - 2013-01-23 8:54 AM

This is from my Lean Eating lesson today.  I fully agree with this. 

 

The Myth of Discipline

  First, many folks argue that “motivation”, “inspiration”, or “willpower” aren’t what truly drive us.

  Famed strength coach Charles Poliquin explains motivation like this:

There is no such thing as discipline. There is only love. Love is the most powerful creative force in the universe.

What do you really love? Because you are the result of what you love most. You either love finely etched muscular abs more than donuts or you love donuts more than washboard abs you could do your laundry on.

  It is as simple as that. Don’t beat yourself up that you have no discipline or further drown yourself in a sea of refined carbs. Admit that you like this food more than you love strength.

One of the best ways to raise self-esteem is to make truly loving choices that lead to increased strength of body and mind.

  When you are faced with difficult choices, ask yourself: What would a loving expert recommend? For example, when choosing desserts, would the loving nutritionist recommend a bowl of berries or the triple decker brownie submerged under melting vanilla ice cream?

  When people comment on your results and say things like Wow you have a lot of discipline, answer, No, I just make loving choices for myself. Reinforcing your own positive behaviour will help you grow in strength.

  Whenever you make a truly loving choice, say to yourself, Thank you for taking care of me in a loving way. The more you talk to yourself like a loving parent, the faster you will grow.

  Let’s say, for example, you just did a single on the squat with a load you didn’t feel like doing. Say: Wow! I am impressed with your strength of mind! That’s why you are a champion!

  Document and reward your successes, and they will grow in magnitude and frequency.

As someone who has dealt with similar issues, I like this.   There's a vast difference in attitude when I approach something as a positive choice rather than a punishment, or a limiter

2013-01-24 2:01 PM
in reply to: #4592951

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Master
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Central Kansas
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
marcag - 2013-01-24 11:54 AM
axteraa - 2013-01-24 10:27 AM

To add to my previous post.  

If your goal is to swim fast 100s at a 1:20 pace (for simplified math), try to swim the 10x25 so that you complete each 25 in 20 seconds but do it by maintaining and focusing on form rather than just busting a gut.  Once you can do that reliably, go to 5x50 with a goal of 40 second 50s, then 60 second 75s.  This would have to happen over time but it may help you get over the problem of technique going out the window in the strong => fast area.

 

So, on the HTFU scale, I swam outdoors today at -4C today.

Maybe it explains the atrocious pace I was holding. Nope. It isn't weather related. I have perfected the 0 beat kick (patent pending)

Wow. Just wow. How far of a dash to get from the water to your car or the building? 


2013-01-24 2:04 PM
in reply to: #4592951

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Seattle
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
marcag - 2013-01-24 11:54 AM
axteraa - 2013-01-24 10:27 AM

To add to my previous post.  

If your goal is to swim fast 100s at a 1:20 pace (for simplified math), try to swim the 10x25 so that you complete each 25 in 20 seconds but do it by maintaining and focusing on form rather than just busting a gut.  Once you can do that reliably, go to 5x50 with a goal of 40 second 50s, then 60 second 75s.  This would have to happen over time but it may help you get over the problem of technique going out the window in the strong => fast area.

 

So, on the HTFU scale, I swam outdoors today at -4C today.

Maybe it explains the atrocious pace I was holding. Nope. It isn't weather related. I have perfected the 0 beat kick (patent pending)

Ummm if HTFU were a game, you my friend, are a winner.

WTF!? I mean really. My brain is about to explode. 

2013-01-24 2:05 PM
in reply to: #4593214

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Master
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...at home in The ATL
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
KansasMom - 2013-01-24 3:01 PM
marcag - 2013-01-24 11:54 AM
axteraa - 2013-01-24 10:27 AM

To add to my previous post.  

If your goal is to swim fast 100s at a 1:20 pace (for simplified math), try to swim the 10x25 so that you complete each 25 in 20 seconds but do it by maintaining and focusing on form rather than just busting a gut.  Once you can do that reliably, go to 5x50 with a goal of 40 second 50s, then 60 second 75s.  This would have to happen over time but it may help you get over the problem of technique going out the window in the strong => fast area.

 

So, on the HTFU scale, I swam outdoors today at -4C today.

Maybe it explains the atrocious pace I was holding. Nope. It isn't weather related. I have perfected the 0 beat kick (patent pending)

Wow. Just wow. How far of a dash to get from the water to your car or the building? 

I too was impressed. But then I read that Yanti rode for 7 hours on the trainer yesterday. She is making all the rest of us look like wimps. 

2013-01-24 2:07 PM
in reply to: #4592541

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Master
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Central Kansas
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
axteraa - 2013-01-24 8:46 AM

I like that paper route ride idea Rusty!

I'm not sure if I could pickup a bottle off the ground.  I suspect not.

I also like it. The drawing with GPS is also impressive. I like the moon landing one especially.
2013-01-24 2:09 PM
in reply to: #4543084

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Seattle
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

So I've taken some of the feedback you guys gave to heart and done a shorter warmup for my speed days.

I simply broke it out into another double day and do an AM recovery run and the PM track workout.

I think it has really helped. I feel a lot more fresh and have been running with a faster group than usual.

2013-01-24 2:11 PM
in reply to: #4593231

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Payson, AZ
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Asalzwed - 2013-01-24 1:09 PM

So I've taken some of the feedback you guys gave to heart and done a shorter warmup for my speed days.

I simply broke it out into another double day and do an AM recovery run and the PM track workout.

I think it has really helped. I feel a lot more fresh and have been running with a faster group than usual.

in other words....we created a monster



2013-01-24 2:14 PM
in reply to: #4593220

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Payson, AZ
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Asalzwed - 2013-01-24 1:04 PM
marcag - 2013-01-24 11:54 AM
axteraa - 2013-01-24 10:27 AM

To add to my previous post.  

If your goal is to swim fast 100s at a 1:20 pace (for simplified math), try to swim the 10x25 so that you complete each 25 in 20 seconds but do it by maintaining and focusing on form rather than just busting a gut.  Once you can do that reliably, go to 5x50 with a goal of 40 second 50s, then 60 second 75s.  This would have to happen over time but it may help you get over the problem of technique going out the window in the strong => fast area.

 

So, on the HTFU scale, I swam outdoors today at -4C today.

Maybe it explains the atrocious pace I was holding. Nope. It isn't weather related. I have perfected the 0 beat kick (patent pending)

Ummm if HTFU were a game, you my friend, are a winner.

WTF!? I mean really. My brain is about to explode. 

depending on how long he has to go from the pool to the changing room that actually can be really nice.  Swimming in a HEATED pool when it is that cold out is neat with all the steam and stuff.  Use to do it in Tucson fairly often (yes, it can get that cold in the desert) but I do admit to swimming a few extra laps in an attempt to delay getting out of the water into the cold.

2013-01-24 2:19 PM
in reply to: #4593242

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Elite
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PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
bzgl40 - 2013-01-24 4:14 PM
Asalzwed - 2013-01-24 1:04 PM
marcag - 2013-01-24 11:54 AM
axteraa - 2013-01-24 10:27 AM

To add to my previous post.  

If your goal is to swim fast 100s at a 1:20 pace (for simplified math), try to swim the 10x25 so that you complete each 25 in 20 seconds but do it by maintaining and focusing on form rather than just busting a gut.  Once you can do that reliably, go to 5x50 with a goal of 40 second 50s, then 60 second 75s.  This would have to happen over time but it may help you get over the problem of technique going out the window in the strong => fast area.

 

So, on the HTFU scale, I swam outdoors today at -4C today.

Maybe it explains the atrocious pace I was holding. Nope. It isn't weather related. I have perfected the 0 beat kick (patent pending)

Ummm if HTFU were a game, you my friend, are a winner.

WTF!? I mean really. My brain is about to explode. 

depending on how long he has to go from the pool to the changing room that actually can be really nice.  Swimming in a HEATED pool when it is that cold out is neat with all the steam and stuff.  Use to do it in Tucson fairly often (yes, it can get that cold in the desert) but I do admit to swimming a few extra laps in an attempt to delay getting out of the water into the cold.

I'm guessing that it's not one of those situations where you stand at the edge of the pool for a few minutes before getting in and worry about how cold the water is going to be.

2013-01-24 2:19 PM
in reply to: #4593242

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Seattle
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
bzgl40 - 2013-01-24 2:14 PM
Asalzwed - 2013-01-24 1:04 PM
marcag - 2013-01-24 11:54 AM
axteraa - 2013-01-24 10:27 AM

To add to my previous post.  

If your goal is to swim fast 100s at a 1:20 pace (for simplified math), try to swim the 10x25 so that you complete each 25 in 20 seconds but do it by maintaining and focusing on form rather than just busting a gut.  Once you can do that reliably, go to 5x50 with a goal of 40 second 50s, then 60 second 75s.  This would have to happen over time but it may help you get over the problem of technique going out the window in the strong => fast area.

 

So, on the HTFU scale, I swam outdoors today at -4C today.

Maybe it explains the atrocious pace I was holding. Nope. It isn't weather related. I have perfected the 0 beat kick (patent pending)

Ummm if HTFU were a game, you my friend, are a winner.

WTF!? I mean really. My brain is about to explode. 

depending on how long he has to go from the pool to the changing room that actually can be really nice.  Swimming in a HEATED pool when it is that cold out is neat with all the steam and stuff.  Use to do it in Tucson fairly often (yes, it can get that cold in the desert) but I do admit to swimming a few extra laps in an attempt to delay getting out of the water into the cold.

Ehhh I guess you are right. NM, I take it back. You are no longer winning the HTFU game.

Just the thought of getting in and out gets some cred though.Smile

2013-01-24 2:21 PM
in reply to: #4593254

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Payson, AZ
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
axteraa - 2013-01-24 1:19 PM

 

I'm guessing that it's not one of those situations where you stand at the edge of the pool for a few minutes before getting in and worry about how cold the water is going to be.

Those are the days I actually get ready in the pool.  If it is moderate outside and water temps are regular I get all ready to swim on the deck and dive in.  Those days it is get out of my clothes as quick as I can and jump on in. Feels really good to go from freezing to the 80-82F water (temps I normally find too hot



Edited by bzgl40 2013-01-24 2:23 PM
2013-01-24 2:27 PM
in reply to: #4593231

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Master
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Central Kansas
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Asalzwed - 2013-01-24 2:09 PM

So I've taken some of the feedback you guys gave to heart and done a shorter warmup for my speed days.

I simply broke it out into another double day and do an AM recovery run and the PM track workout.

I think it has really helped. I feel a lot more fresh and have been running with a faster group than usual.

Awesome! You faster sounds like trouble for your competition!


2013-01-24 2:34 PM
in reply to: #4593257

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Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

Wrench question:  I removed a spacer from my headset, retightened the stem cap and bars, and there is still a little play in the front end (i.e., the "hold the bike, squeeze the front brake and wiggle back and forth" test).  I tightened the cap as much as I can.

How do I fix this?

- Brian

PS Unfortunately, I did not check to see if it was like this before I started (see my previous post on not riding for the last 3 months :)

2013-01-24 3:14 PM
in reply to: #4543084

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Master
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Goodyear, AZ
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Woke up to rain here today...actually I woke up, watched TV, ate breakfast, got the kids ready and into my bike stuff...it was only when I opened the door to let the dog out and noticed he was refusing to go, that I saw the rain. I decided against riding in it, so I swam instead...I love swimming outdoors in the rain! But now I am committed to riding with the hubby when he gets home from work, I usually have the excuse that I already rode, now I will have to try and keep up as I think he is doing intervals!
2013-01-24 3:14 PM
in reply to: #4593273

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Master
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...at home in The ATL
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN
Hi Brian - I assume you removed the spacer from under your stem to lower it? If so, just put the spacer back on top of the headset and then put the cap on - you should be good to go.
2013-01-24 3:15 PM
in reply to: #4593319

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Master
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...at home in The ATL
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia - OPEN

riorio - 2013-01-24 4:14 PM Woke up to rain here today...actually I woke up, watched TV, ate breakfast, got the kids ready and into my bike stuff...it was only when I opened the door to let the dog out and noticed he was refusing to go, that I saw the rain. I decided against riding in it, so I swam instead...I love swimming outdoors in the rain! But now I am committed to riding with the hubby when he gets home from work, I usually have the excuse that I already rode, now I will have to try and keep up as I think he is doing intervals!

That sounds good for you. maybe?

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