SBR "U"

Veteran

1677

Houston, Texas

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

They're probably all shallow enough that you could run right through them! I would bet they don't get deeper than 6-7 feet! That's why they get so dang hot in the summer....with lows in the 80's and highs well over 90, the water is bound to be uncomfortable!

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Master

2912

...at home in The ATL

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by TankBoy

B) introduced a lot more stochastic work on both the bike and run. So lots more hill and trail running, and more fast group rides for the shorter stuff and mountain climbing on the longer rides.

Rusty, what did you mean by stochastic?

Also agree with D. People tend to put less time in the shorter events as they are easier to just get through with them being smaller, but to really do your best the time spent will be similar regardless of what you're doing. It's the type of workouts that change, and even then it's not necessarily as much as some think.

Hey Ben - sorry, stochastic is not REALLY a training regimen, but instead it is a term most-often used by us academic types to describe a system or series of events that are influenced by at least one random variable and therefore while they may be statistically analyzed they are difficult to predict precisely. In training a hilly group ride with folks that are just a little bit stronger than you would be a great example of such a "system" in training. Again, I have zero science behind it, but adding this kind of training seemed to help me quite a bit when making the transfer back to short-course racing in ways that I just couldn't replicate solo on the road or on the trainer. Long course racing seems to be 100% strategic, while short course racing seems to introduce a certain level of tactical ability. For instance, sometimes in a sprint distance race you just have to go with the race before it gets away from you; in a half or full IM this can get you in trouble really fast. In other words in long course you have to just go as fast as you can go no matter what is going on around you, while in short course racing you "simply" have to go faster than everyone else. This may be nothing more tan a frame of mind, but to me this is one of the ways the races are fundamentally different beyond just their distance. Adding a little "stochastic" training into your training routine can help (at least in my own experience) shift that mental framework.

My Race Log

Master

10208

Northern IL

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by TankBoy

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by TankBoy

B) introduced a lot more stochastic work on both the bike and run. So lots more hill and trail running, and more fast group rides for the shorter stuff and mountain climbing on the longer rides.

Rusty, what did you mean by stochastic?

Also agree with D. People tend to put less time in the shorter events as they are easier to just get through with them being smaller, but to really do your best the time spent will be similar regardless of what you're doing. It's the type of workouts that change, and even then it's not necessarily as much as some think.

Hey Ben - sorry, stochastic is not REALLY a training regimen, but instead it is a term most-often used by us academic types to describe a system or series of events that are influenced by at least one random variable and therefore while they may be statistically analyzed they are difficult to predict precisely. In training a hilly group ride with folks that are just a little bit stronger than you would be a great example of such a "system" in training. Again, I have zero science behind it, but adding this kind of training seemed to help me quite a bit when making the transfer back to short-course racing in ways that I just couldn't replicate solo on the road or on the trainer. Long course racing seems to be 100% strategic, while short course racing seems to introduce a certain level of tactical ability. For instance, sometimes in a sprint distance race you just have to go with the race before it gets away from you; in a half or full IM this can get you in trouble really fast. In other words in long course you have to just go as fast as you can go no matter what is going on around you, while in short course racing you "simply" have to go faster than everyone else. This may be nothing more tan a frame of mind, but to me this is one of the ways the races are fundamentally different beyond just their distance. Adding a little "stochastic" training into your training routine can help (at least in my own experience) shift that mental framework.

Ok, thought that's what you meant, but wanted to be sure. I think a good deal of what you're getting is learning to push yourself harder than you thought and also by pushing harder more frequently at times you become more familiar with going that hard. I think that's part of what you're seeing in the races too. In non-draft (or time trialing), the fastest way to get there is basically a consistently strong power output the whole time. If there are enough people around to get the slight draft, then maybe it's worth pushing a little more to keep it as you get more out of the effort, but still have to be careful with that. Also, some people are just able to push themselves harder when they have someone else around to motivate them. So it's not so much a question of the race getting away, but being able to utilize some tangible benefits along with increased motivation. The surging or attacks are to break both of these.

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Master

8249

Eugene, Oregon

Bronze member

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Hmmm. Maybe I am really cut out for long course. When healthy, I have an almost ridiculous ability to hold a steady pace for a long, long time. I looked at my bike splits from the last race and they hardly vary at all except for one stretch when I was going into a strong headwind for about 10 km. When I've been able to ride with power, I also tend to hold a really constant power. When I was younger and in better run shape I would do crazy stuff like hitting almost the same mile split for 20 miles in a row, even without a watch or Garmin. Group rides tend to drive me nuts because I can't just get into a rhythm and zone out. Doing a 5:30 HIM would not require me to sustain paces that, stand-alone, I would really consider that difficult or uncomfortable. It's having the endurance to put them together, and actually getting to the start healthy, that's the challenge. An Oly approaching 2:30 would be different in that respect--the paces really do require me to push it very hard, particularly on the bike. I think that's an area I have yet to develop. Just thinking about hitting 20 mph and above for more than an hour, and then trying to run, makes me feel ill!

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Master

10208

Northern IL

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

The holding steady would lead more towards non-draft instead of draft legal. DL would be more like a crit or an aggressive group ride. The holding steady would be good for all non-draft. Then it becomes more what type of intensity and duration you like going at.

Do keep in mind that training can and does affect the ability to perform at any one of these. If you haven't done much intensity, then yeah, short course is going to feel very hard and uncomfortable. With training, well, it could still be described that way, but you'll know how to deal with it better.

My Race Log

Seattle

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by TankBoy

While I think there is some merit to the observations about long course athletes being under-prepared (especially for the swim) what I witnessed in Lake Placid was way different than that. People who were clearly fit and prepared were literally freaking out. Days ahead of the event - it was all anyone wanted to talk about. I think triathletes in general (and IM athletes in particular) are so dependent on the narrative that what they are involved in is so difficult that they begin to believe it actually is. it really isn't; most folks could complete the distance if it was something they decided to do. As far as ultra-endurance events go, a supported ironman really barely qualifies IMHO. obviously it does have some degree of difficulty, but nowhere near say, a 50 mile trail race.

Also, I think triathletes (again, particularly the IM bunch) are so rigidly fixated on their "plan" that the slightest deviation causes them to freak out and melt down, which in some weird way is connected to my first point. For me the real fun of ultra racing is not so much when everything goes right, but rather having the agility and contingency training to stay calm, think laterally, and basically keep your sh*t together when everything goes south.

Hahahahaha I am glad you said all of this and not me.

It's something I definitely observed when competing in triathlon. I thought it was hilarious! People freak the eff out. I was volunteering at an event and witnessed this dude I was volunteering with have a complete melt down because the snack his wife packed wasn't the exact thing he specified and he was a week out from his HIM and "DID NOT" want to sabotage his nutrition plan.

My Race Log

Master

5557

, California

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by TankBoy

While I think there is some merit to the observations about long course athletes being under-prepared (especially for the swim) what I witnessed in Lake Placid was way different than that. People who were clearly fit and prepared were literally freaking out. Days ahead of the event - it was all anyone wanted to talk about. I think triathletes in general (and IM athletes in particular) are so dependent on the narrative that what they are involved in is so difficult that they begin to believe it actually is. it really isn't; most folks could complete the distance if it was something they decided to do. As far as ultra-endurance events go, a supported ironman really barely qualifies IMHO. obviously it does have some degree of difficulty, but nowhere near say, a 50 mile trail race.

Also, I think triathletes (again, particularly the IM bunch) are so rigidly fixated on their "plan" that the slightest deviation causes them to freak out and melt down, which in some weird way is connected to my first point. For me the real fun of ultra racing is not so much when everything goes right, but rather having the agility and contingency training to stay calm, think laterally, and basically keep your sh*t together when everything goes south.

Hahahahaha I am glad you said all of this and not me.

It's something I definitely observed when competing in triathlon. I thought it was hilarious! People freak the eff out. I was volunteering at an event and witnessed this dude I was volunteering with have a complete melt down because the snack his wife packed wasn't the exact thing he specified and he was a week out from his HIM and "DID NOT" want to sabotage his nutrition plan.

At least we can see your nutrition plan in your profile photo

My Race Log

Seattle

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by TankBoy

While I think there is some merit to the observations about long course athletes being under-prepared (especially for the swim) what I witnessed in Lake Placid was way different than that. People who were clearly fit and prepared were literally freaking out. Days ahead of the event - it was all anyone wanted to talk about. I think triathletes in general (and IM athletes in particular) are so dependent on the narrative that what they are involved in is so difficult that they begin to believe it actually is. it really isn't; most folks could complete the distance if it was something they decided to do. As far as ultra-endurance events go, a supported ironman really barely qualifies IMHO. obviously it does have some degree of difficulty, but nowhere near say, a 50 mile trail race.

Also, I think triathletes (again, particularly the IM bunch) are so rigidly fixated on their "plan" that the slightest deviation causes them to freak out and melt down, which in some weird way is connected to my first point. For me the real fun of ultra racing is not so much when everything goes right, but rather having the agility and contingency training to stay calm, think laterally, and basically keep your sh*t together when everything goes south.

Hahahahaha I am glad you said all of this and not me.

It's something I definitely observed when competing in triathlon. I thought it was hilarious! People freak the eff out. I was volunteering at an event and witnessed this dude I was volunteering with have a complete melt down because the snack his wife packed wasn't the exact thing he specified and he was a week out from his HIM and "DID NOT" want to sabotage his nutrition plan.

At least we can see your nutrition plan in your profile photo

Right. If I don't get my poutine and beer the night before a race I may as well not even show up. And if those cheese curds aren't squeaky I'm flippin' the table.

My Race Log

Elite

7783

PEI, Canada

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by TankBoy

While I think there is some merit to the observations about long course athletes being under-prepared (especially for the swim) what I witnessed in Lake Placid was way different than that. People who were clearly fit and prepared were literally freaking out. Days ahead of the event - it was all anyone wanted to talk about. I think triathletes in general (and IM athletes in particular) are so dependent on the narrative that what they are involved in is so difficult that they begin to believe it actually is. it really isn't; most folks could complete the distance if it was something they decided to do. As far as ultra-endurance events go, a supported ironman really barely qualifies IMHO. obviously it does have some degree of difficulty, but nowhere near say, a 50 mile trail race.

Also, I think triathletes (again, particularly the IM bunch) are so rigidly fixated on their "plan" that the slightest deviation causes them to freak out and melt down, which in some weird way is connected to my first point. For me the real fun of ultra racing is not so much when everything goes right, but rather having the agility and contingency training to stay calm, think laterally, and basically keep your sh*t together when everything goes south.

Hahahahaha I am glad you said all of this and not me.

It's something I definitely observed when competing in triathlon. I thought it was hilarious! People freak the eff out. I was volunteering at an event and witnessed this dude I was volunteering with have a complete melt down because the snack his wife packed wasn't the exact thing he specified and he was a week out from his HIM and "DID NOT" want to sabotage his nutrition plan.

At least we can see your nutrition plan in your profile photo

Right. If I don't get my poutine and beer the night before a race I may as well not even show up. And if those cheese curds aren't squeaky I'm flippin' the table.

I like your style. Just make sure it's the night before a race and not an hour before a long run (or race I suppose). I can tell you from experience that squeaky cheese poutine from a small town in Quebec, followed an hour later by a 16k run in Montreal is a horrible idea.

My Race Log

Master

2912

...at home in The ATL

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by ligersandtions

They're probably all shallow enough that you could run right through them! I would bet they don't get deeper than 6-7 feet! That's why they get so dang hot in the summer....with lows in the 80's and highs well over 90, the water is bound to be uncomfortable!

Beware the Brain Eating Virus in Warm, Shallow Water!

My Race Log

Elite

7783

PEI, Canada

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

I suddenly don't mind my cold, salty ocean water...

My Race Log

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by axteraa

I suddenly don't mind my cold, salty ocean water...

At least he didn't display a pic showing how the Candiru gets in.....

My Race Log

Master

5557

, California

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by axteraa

I suddenly don't mind my cold, salty ocean water...

You get this diagram

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Veteran

2842

Austin, Texas

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

LOL! Awesome.

As I think i mentioned last summer, a GWS bit a kayak (only once, although the two women who had been in the kayak until that point were rather surprised nonetheless) just off the beach in Plymouth about a week after we moved to TX. 150' from shore and exactly on my (formerly) regular OWS route.

I was happy to find Barton Springs on moving here!

'Course, we're going back for July, and I'm already stressing about my OWS's and whether I'll modify my route a bit (as in, I'll be swimming shoreward of kindergarteners)... ??

Matt

My Race Log

Master

8249

Eugene, Oregon

Bronze member

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Also having shark phobias after a woman got bit at my favorite swimming beach in Hawaii (Hapuna) a few months ago. Even my colleague who's from the Big Island had never heard of an attack there before. If there is ever an attack at my old stomping grounds in Honolulu (Ala Moana beach), I may just give up swimming in Hawaii altogether. Not an issue for the lake swims I'll be doing this summer, and hopefully too cold for brain-eating amoeba's, but yikes! Thinking of entering a race in Australia (Geelong 70.3) next winter. Have triathletes ever been munched in an Australian race? Seems like they have some pretty aggressive nature down under. With my luck I will hit a kangaroo on the bike.

My Training Log My Race Log

Master

8249

Eugene, Oregon

Bronze member

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Still thinking about the summer....Plans have been put on hold for a week or two, due to a family situation out of my control. At any rate, am planning on either doing a HIM mid-July and probably an Oly at the end of the month (with the HIM as the A race) or only the latter race. Really would like to see what I can do at either distance when not held back by heat and illness.... I probably have some more chances to do an Oly in the fall if I want so leaning toward the HIM if the family situation allows me to travel (it would be a day's drive each way).

If I did do the HIM, what would be the best "bridge" between where I am now and mid-July? I took 6 days off any training (except for one easy swim on Thursday) and am planning to spend the next week doing short (<40 minute) runs/rides/swims at recovery effort. This is probably a bit conservative, but last time I made the mistake of coming back to training (particularly long runs and run speedwork) too early and hard, and suffered a string of nagging illnesses and injuries. Plus I was sick for my race last week and still getting over with a bit of residual congestion. No soreness since Wed., actually feel great in the pool, but I do feel a bit slow/tired when running and sleeping more than usual. Not sure how much is due to illness and how much to race recovery. Also using the time to catch up on some work and coursework commitments. I'm thinking that by next week I'd be ready to get back to fairly normal training, whatever that should be.

My logs are up to date. My training went very well--averaging about 15 hours/week before taper-- until I got sick shortly before the race, and my fitness in all three areas is strong. Just not sure of the best way to maintain it without physical (or mental) burnout. I will be returning home to the US on June 14, until then will be here, so heat will be continue to be a factor. I know when I did this last time (after my first HIM attempt got derailed by weather) I picked out one area that I really needed to work on--bike endurance--and mainly focused on that. I cut back overall volume and in fact didn't even train every day but hit a couple key workouts in each sport each week. (Kind of a de-facto decision as we were traveling for much of the time. Did OWS when I could find a good lake, long ride when I found a good route, etc.) I had also incorporated some altitude training, but that won't be happening this year. Ideas?

Edited by Hot Runner 2015-05-17 2:55 AM

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Elite

7783

PEI, Canada

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Sprint Duathlon today - 5k/20k/5k. A whopping 21 racers! I finished 5th with an effort I'm happy with. Both runs were an identical 21:11 (one with T1, one with T2) and the bike was 33:22 on 276w. I did the bike on my road bike to get a feel for racing it as that's what I will use for Alcatraz. 276w is easily the most power I've done for a sprint and it felt good to be able to put a solid run in after it. Especially since I haven't run much in the last couple of weeks due to my knee (which seems mostly better).

Fastest bike split too - take that fancy TT bikers!

The kid (18) that won it races draft legal Junior Elite and ran 16:35 and 16:36...

My Race Log

Master

10208

Northern IL

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by axteraa

Sprint Duathlon today - 5k/20k/5k. A whopping 21 racers! I finished 5th with an effort I'm happy with. Both runs were an identical 21:11 (one with T1, one with T2) and the bike was 33:22 on 276w. I did the bike on my road bike to get a feel for racing it as that's what I will use for Alcatraz. 276w is easily the most power I've done for a sprint and it felt good to be able to put a solid run in after it. Especially since I haven't run much in the last couple of weeks due to my knee (which seems mostly better).

Fastest bike split too - take that fancy TT bikers!

The kid (18) that won it races draft legal Junior Elite and ran 16:35 and 16:36...

Well, not fast enough. Nice going though! Did you at least use shorty bars?

My Race Log

Elite

7783

PEI, Canada

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Yes, shorty bars. I don't feel terribly stable in them so I limited it to good sections of road (there were some rough patches) and no crosswinds.

My Race Log

Master

2912

...at home in The ATL

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by axteraa

Sprint Duathlon today - 5k/20k/5k. A whopping 21 racers! I finished 5th with an effort I'm happy with. Both runs were an identical 21:11 (one with T1, one with T2) and the bike was 33:22 on 276w. I did the bike on my road bike to get a feel for racing it as that's what I will use for Alcatraz. 276w is easily the most power I've done for a sprint and it felt good to be able to put a solid run in after it. Especially since I haven't run much in the last couple of weeks due to my knee (which seems mostly better).

Fastest bike split too - take that fancy TT bikers!

The kid (18) that won it races draft legal Junior Elite and ran 16:35 and 16:36...

Top 5 and FOMOP all at the same time - that's just crazy, Arend! And with that kind of fall-off between the first and second run the kid that won REALLY needs to work on his bike pacing - ha-ha!

My Race Log

Master

2912

...at home in The ATL

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

I am climbing Mt. Mitchell tomorrow which should net out at 12,000 feet of climbing, and I have about 8000' feet planned for next weekend, so I figured for sure I would get on top of the SBRU Strava climbing podium this coming week. But then I see Jason has joined a strava climbing challenge. Just fudge - can't a brother ever get a break?

And Ben, how is it that you can ride over 100 miles and barely gain 1000'??? do you do all your riding in a Wal-Mart (or probably Meijer's where you live) parking lot??

My Race Log

Master

10208

Northern IL

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by TankBoy

And Ben, how is it that you can ride over 100 miles and barely gain 1000'??? do you do all your riding in a Wal-Mart (or probably Meijer's where you live) parking lot??

Ha! I'm showing ~1,600 from a 71 mile ride. Weekday is still entirely on the trainer for me, so all the elevation comes from the 1 or 2 weekend rides.

My Race Log

Master

2912

...at home in The ATL

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by TankBoy

And Ben, how is it that you can ride over 100 miles and barely gain 1000'??? do you do all your riding in a Wal-Mart (or probably Meijer's where you live) parking lot??

Ha! I'm showing ~1,600 from a 71 mile ride. Weekday is still entirely on the trainer for me, so all the elevation comes from the 1 or 2 weekend rides.

Wow - Ben, that is just insanely flat - our "flat" centuries around here are in the 4000' range. There is a guy over in Alabama that I get to ride with on rare occasions named Brian Toone - well worth the follow on strava. He is a Cat 1 cyclist that is currently training for RAAM this summer. Monday through Saturday of this week he has already ridden 705 miles and climbed 41,000 feet. Rumor is that today he rode from home about 80 miles to the the start of a 124 mile organized climby ride that covered 12,000 of climbing. He rode that with a backpack, and then after finishing rode the 80 miles back home. He has to be home by now, but the dude is so lazy he hasn't posted it yet on strava... he seriously needs to get his priorities straight!

My Race Log

Master

10208

Northern IL

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Originally posted by TankBoy

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by TankBoy

And Ben, how is it that you can ride over 100 miles and barely gain 1000'??? do you do all your riding in a Wal-Mart (or probably Meijer's where you live) parking lot??

Ha! I'm showing ~1,600 from a 71 mile ride. Weekday is still entirely on the trainer for me, so all the elevation comes from the 1 or 2 weekend rides.

Wow - Ben, that is just insanely flat - our "flat" centuries around here are in the 4000' range. There is a guy over in Alabama that I get to ride with on rare occasions named Brian Toone - well worth the follow on strava. He is a Cat 1 cyclist that is currently training for RAAM this summer. Monday through Saturday of this week he has already ridden 705 miles and climbed 41,000 feet. Rumor is that today he rode from home about 80 miles to the the start of a 124 mile organized climby ride that covered 12,000 of climbing. He rode that with a backpack, and then after finishing rode the 80 miles back home. He has to be home by now, but the dude is so lazy he hasn't posted it yet on strava... he seriously needs to get his priorities straight!

Yeah, there's just not much in the more immediate area in the way of hills. Lots of little interruption bits that kill momentum, but not really sustained climbs. That's where traveling comes in. Some things in Wisconsin can do ~8,000 ft in a century.

And what that RAAM guy is doing is crazy.

My Race Log

Master

8249

Eugene, Oregon

Bronze member

Subject: RE: SBR "U"

Er....The "parking lot" rider would be me. But it's a 4-mile loop around an industrial park. The only hill within probably 150 miles of here is a big suspension bridge about two miles from my place. I don't bother with the bridge anymore as it's not a safe riding setup--lane quite narrow, heavily laden motorbikes going to and from a wholesale market early AM, women have been attacked on/near the bridge at that time. The road on the opposite side is also poorly surfaced and caused several flats back when I used to do it.

Good I don't do Strava--it would just show me riding the same loop, week after week after week. When I'm in Vietnam, seriously, except for the occasional race or MTB ride, 100% of my rides are on the trainer or the industrial park, solo. Any ride in Oregon is like being in heaven.

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SBR "U" (Page 61)

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