Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed. (Page 69)

Probably a bit lower than that.  I know that I ran well off a 66 mile ride at 80% -- I'm going to try a similar ride this weekend targeting a little higher.  But this is based on my CP from January, which I think is probably a little low, so what's 85% according to my calcs may actually be closer to 80%.

Nicole...another way to look at is is to target a specific TSS.  Usually for a HIM, most people want to be in the 170-180 range in order to run well.  The weaker your running ability, the lower you want to be on that scale.  Maybe even less than 170.

The reason why you may want to use TSS instead of % FTP (or IF) is that TSS takes into account the time you are expected to be on the course.  For example...

A top pro can attain 174 TSS points by riding at 88% over the course of 2.25 hours.  TSS is calculated as IF^2 * Time (in hours) * 100.  .88^2 x 2.25 x 100 = 174.24 TSS points.

A BOP AGer can attain 166 TSS points by riding at 69% over the course of 3.5 hours.  .69^2 x 3.5 x 100 = 166.6 TSS points.  Notice how much lower intensity the AGer needs to ride at to achieve a reasonable TSS allowing them to run well.

So what you also have to factor in is the course.  St George is an extremely difficult course on both the bike and run.  So your power target will have to accommodate the fact that you may be on the bike course longer than your typical HIM, and you may need to save more energy for the run than normal.  

So lets say you want to shoot for a TSS of 165 for the St. George course to make sure you have enough for the run.  I know you've been working on your run recently, but I don't think it's your strength like it is for someone like Marc.  Now you need to figure out the IF and the time spent on the bike that will get you 165 TSS points.  This is the tricky part because it needs a lot of assumptions about weather and knowing what power translates to what speed on this specific course.

So lets just take a wild stab at it.  The top 20% in your AG on the bike were riding 2:52-3:00.  Lets split the difference at say 2:56 or 2.93 hours.  So in order to get 165 TSS points, you would have to ride at 75%.  Now does that seem reasonable that 75% of your FTP would get you a 2:56 bike split?  If not, you may have to massage the numbers a little, but hopefully you get the point I'm trying to make.  That the % of FTP you choose is very dependent on how much time you plan to spend on the bike course and how difficult the run course is in relation to your run fitness.  Almost every AGer trying to ride Savageman at 80% FTP will likely have an epic blow up.  Most would be better off riding under 70%.

ETA: As always, these ways of coming up with % of FTP should be tested in training...which you are doing...so that's good.  But instead of comparing distance (66 mile ride at X% FTP), compare time to what you expect to be on the bike at St George.  

I agree with what both of you are saying (Jason and Marc).  I think part of my concern or questioning is stemming from the fact that I'm not sure what my actual CP is.  If I use what I estimated back in January, it's one thing....if I use what I think it would be if I tested now, it's slightly higher....if I use Marc's thought that our calculated CP is over estimated and our actual CP is closer to what we're doing for Sweet Spot rides, then my CP is somewhat significanlty lower.

I did put St. George into Best Bike Split and expect to be on the bike for 2:50 - 2:55 based on the numbers I've been playing with recently.  Based on what I've learned about my riding style over the past few months, I'm more likely to come in slightly under my target, than overshoot it....though, it may be different on race day with tapered legs, but I'm certain I can keep myself under control!

My plan for this weekend was actually to do a longish ride (2.5 - 3 hours) followed by a 60 minute run to really gauge how well I think that power target and my nutrition plan will be for the race.  I'm already watching SG weather a bit obsessively....temps look to be a little warmer than Houston at the moment, but far less humid, so I'm hoping this will be a good simulation. 

And yes, Rinny is a gorgeous runner

Nicole, it may be a little too late to try it out now, but maybe you can look back on the data of your previous long rides.  Instead of finding the % of CP to ride at, it's probably better to find the power you were able to ride at for 2:50-2:55 and still felt capable of running well afterwards.  Then it doesn't really matter if your CP is accurate or not...you know what power you can sustain for the duration of the St George 70.3 bike course.  That's the goal.

For me, I typically ride at a very low % of FTP when I do Honu.  Probably around 78% or so.  I know my FTP is accurate because it's based on a 1 hour TT.  But I know from training that I can't hold more than 80% for 2:35-2:40 and still run well after.  At least in Hawaii heat conditions.  I also have to keep in mind that the TT my FTP is based on was done with before 8:30 am when it's still relatively cool...around 75 degrees.  The bike and run of my HIM is usually done in temps between 82 and 92 degrees when you factor in humidity.  Maybe if I targeted a cooler race I could ride much closer to 80-83%.

The 40k TT was 262 watts over 58:10.  I was just doing the event for fun...had run 14 miles the day before...so maybe I could have squeaked out a few more watts, but I really did feel good that day.  I'd guess my 5' power (on the TT bike) would have been somewhere around 325-330.  Usually my 5' VO2 max efforts are done in the late afternoon when temps are similar to the morning.  

I'm probably a bad example though.  My power curve doesn't resemble the typical triathlete.

ETA: I also had another TT earlier that year...29ish minutes at 286w.  Further adding to the confusion.  

2x20' is hard, but I can force myself to do it.  It's certainly not something I look forward to! 

I think my swim is in a good place.  I can go comfortably hard and be faster than I raced last year, but not so hard to gas myself for the rest of the day....at least that's how I feel.  That said, I think Ben once commented that he didn't realize how much the swim took out of him until he had a race where the swim got canceled. 

As for looking at Best Bike Split, here are various results:

NP 80% (154W) with max set at 100%: 2:52:24 (TSS 180)

NP 85% (164W) with max set at 100%: 2:47:10 (TSS 200)

NP 75% (145W) with max set at 100%: 2:57:47 (TSS 167)

So 10W is about 5 min.  I know it's not fair to compare Vineman to St. George for a number of reason (the course difficulty seems comparable....putting in the same numbers as above, the two courses are within 2 minutes of each other.....but I realize that I a) didn't train the run last year and thus didn't have to consider bike pacing, b) didn't bike with power so I have no idea what I actually did, and c) SG's run course is far more difficult), but that doesn't change the fact that I don't want to have a slower time this year than last year (2:54:51), as it'll make all this bike training feel like it was for naught. 

I feel like somewhere around 155W will leave me able to run reasonably well....I think anything higher than 160W will be sub-optimal.  I'm not confident enough in my run to really sandbag the bike, as I don't know that it will result in a great run still!

Finished the 5 minute test tonight - an increase of 10 watts over the last test, going from 270 to 280 watts. HR peaked at 180.

I can honestly say that I couldn't have gone any longer.  I started at my old 5 minute power and gradually increased throughout.  I was planning to hold at maximum power for 5 to 10 seconds after the interval to bump up the numbers a bit. 

No way...  as soon as the timer hit 35:00 I basically collapsed.

It literally took 2 to 3 minutes for me to catch my breath again. 

Planning on doing the 20 minute test on Friday.  I need 248 watts just to hold my current CP of 237 watts.  

I'll need some caffeine, a good playlist and some Kona highlights on youtube to make it through.

A question for the group.  I've been riding on an Adamo Road saddle for over a year now and although its comfortable enough, I can't say that I love it.

There was a thread along this line in TT about some lousy experiences with Adamo and a few recommendations for other saddles.

My local LBS had the Profile Design Tri Stryke for only $70 so I decided I'd give it a go.  Will be testing it out next week after the 20 minute test this weekend.

http://www.profile-design.com/profile-design/products/saddles/chromoly-saddles

Prior to switching to the Adamo, I had stock Felt B16 saddle and would ride fairly aggressively on the nose and slightly left off-center.

My question to the group is how do you typically race in aero - quite forward on the nose or less aggressively back towards the middle of the saddle?

If on the nose, would you hold this position the entire race?

I'm curious where everyone's "sweet spot" is.

The cut-aways on the Tri Stryke are towards the middle of the saddle, so I'm guessing that is where it was designed to ride.

Although the nose is padded so it can probably be ridden either way.

Scott

I just checked and the nose of the Adamo is about 4 cm behind the BB, but I basically have it as far forward on the rails as possible.

I also did an updated pic on the Position Inspector on 'triracebook.com' and it shows an effective seat angle of between 80 and just 81 degrees depending on where I put the hip marker.

The various angles are attached.  Everything seems to be within the applicable ranges.  I know that it suggests I can go lower in the front.

(Tri Angles - Apr 10 14.JPG)

I also ride a Tri Stryke (have ridden an Adamo Road, Cobb V-flow Plus, Adamo Attack, and Hilo Bontrager....I'm like Goldilocks with saddles!).

When I road the Adamos, I was pretty much as far forward as possible (desperately trying to find a place that wasn't quite so wide!).  On the Tri Stryke, I sit a bit further back, kind of in the middle of the cut out, but phyisically I'm oriented the same as I was on the Adamo....just that the saddle is a bit further forward.  Hope that makes sense.

FWIW, the Tri Stryke was my saving grace on the bike.  I loved cycling, but couln't stand the idea of being on the bike for 100+ miles or anything like that.  With the Tri Stryke, most of that discomfort is gone (of course, it's not quite as comfortable as sitting on my couch at home....but I didn't expect that!).

I ride an Adamo race saddle on my tri bike.  The nose is probably within 2 cm of the center of the BB, but it's not all the way forward as far as the seat rails.  My tri bike is a P2 and I'm using the forward position (of the two holes) on the seat post.

This image pretty accurately illustrates how I ride on the saddle.  The boys just hanging over the tip of the saddle.

(Adamo Position.jpg)