SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN (Page 8)
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2013-06-12 8:00 PM in reply to: axteraa |
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Question for the group.... In the main forums, you hear a lot of people say that for long distance racing (tris, marathons, etc), you train in lower zones to "teach" your body how to be more "efficient" at burning off fat as a primary source of energy rather than glycogen. With what I presume to be the goal of making your glycogen stores last longer...which is a good thing for long races. What's your take on this, and are there any studies to prove it right or wrong? I was just thinking about this on my ride yesterday and was wondering if we can really "teach" our bodies to do this or become more "efficient" at it. Such as, if we train a lot at low intenstiy, can we then race at a higher intensity and trick our bodies to still burn the same (or similar) ratio of energy from fat/glycogen? I always thought that our bodies were pretty smart, and pretty methodical. That if we started exerting effort over a certain point, it will adjust automatically where it gets energy from. Otherwise wouldn't the opposite be true about short course racing like a 10k? If you do a lot of lower zone training, then try to race a 10k...would you body not be as efficient at burning energy from glycogen instead of fat because you weren't training that way? Because in a race that lasts less than an hour, it would be ideal if you burned almost all of your energy from glycogen...right? So for longer races, shouldn't the goal be simply to increase our fitness to the point where we can sustain a faster pace at a lower effort...thus we are faster at an effort that requires less energy from glycogen? Increasing fitness can be attained by low intensity work with high volume...but we all know that's not the only way to increase fitness. Am I reading into this wrong? Thoughts? |
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2013-06-12 8:48 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN This might help some, though it's more on diet than training. A lot of the fat burning thoughts seem to have come from one guy who posts on it a lot, maybe some others have picked up on it too? I can't remember anyone posting testing to show this, just speculation or at most semi-educated thoughts on it. I'm still under the thoughts that the body burns fats just fine (it burns them all the time), but if not used to the higher efforts then performing at those levels could be harder to do. I don't know that it's really worth thinking much about. Just go train, but look more at other adaptations like the ones on this training peaks list. Also, a lot of that talk seems to come from one guy. Others may have picked it up some, but it seemed like one pushed it a bunch. Some just may not feel like debating it so much. Some things said are good, but others seem a little off. |
2013-06-12 8:48 PM in reply to: mcmanusclan5 |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 Originally posted by TankBoy Originally posted by GoFasterAbout time - I couldn't stand that user name either...(where's the red font???) I'm doing a timed mile at the track with the running group tonight. I'm going to try and run a 5:40, but may completely blow up (basically ran 6 flat a year ago my first time doing it). I'm thinking of trying to evenly pace it as 1:25 a lap. Any thoughts? Neil, if I were really serious about it I would walk and do dynamic stretching for about 15 minutes followed by 15 or maybe even 20 minutes of easy running working up to the top of my base zone depending on how I felt. I would throw in a handful of strides at the end. Then finish my warmup with 2x400, 1st at 1:30ish (and err on letting it be a bit slower just to get a good feel for the pace) then try to nail the second one right at 1:25 after a couple of minutes of recovery. Four more minutes of walking/easy jogging recovery, and then run out at 1:23 and target a slight fade. If you are racing the group you would probably have to run it differently, but (for me anyway) I have found that running a slight fade to garner me the better TT time on the mile. x2 on the slight fade. If your kick at the end shows a big uptick in pace, you *probably* are leaving at least a little out there. If your all out, turn yourself inside out kick holds your pace or is a slight increase over the last 100m, then you probably have very little left to give. At least that's been my experience, as well. YMMV, as some folks swear by the negative split for all running events. I like negatives for distances I haven't run, for races that I want to finish well and not be crushed after and for certain workouts - but for a best time, the slightest of fades has produced my best times over the years... and the most pain. Hope you suffer well! Matt Negative split was never going to happen tonight. I got slotted with three other guys and we were the first group to go off. Pace started off quick right away, but I was prepared for that and fell second into line, but got pushed back into third within a couple of hundred meters. Pace felt hard but good for the first lap, looked at my watch and saw us go through at 1:15 - oh crap, that's too fast. I fell off a couple of strides but 3/4 of us came through 200M together. Then the guy running second decided he needed to up the pace and jumped into the lead, and the original leader tried to go with him. I just watched them go - I was already breathing pretty hard and knew I couldn't match their pace. By the end of the 3rd lap, I was a couple of sec back of second, and the front runner was a good 50M ahead. Pushed hard through the final lap, and tried to hold the same pace while breathing hard. Finished in 5:31. |
2013-06-12 9:24 PM in reply to: 0 |
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Originally posted by brigby1 This might help some, though it's more on diet than training. A lot of the fat burning thoughts seem to have come from one guy who posts on it a lot, maybe some others have picked up on it too? I can't remember anyone posting testing to show this, just speculation or at most semi-educated thoughts on it. I'm still under the thoughts that the body burns fats just fine (it burns them all the time), but if not used to the higher efforts then performing at those levels could be harder to do. I don't know that it's really worth thinking much about. Just go train, but look more at other adaptations like the ones on this training peaks list. Also, a lot of that talk seems to come from one guy. Others may have picked it up some, but it seemed like one pushed it a bunch. Some just may not feel like debating it so much. Some things said are good, but others seem a little off. Interesting link. I don't think I'll be trying to go on a high fat diet anytime soon though. It just seems a bit...gross...to get 69% of your calories from fat. I agree with the "just train" part and trying to improve fitness. How you make those fitness gains really isn't that important so long as you can stay healthy in the process. Edited by Jason N 2013-06-12 9:26 PM |
2013-06-12 10:18 PM in reply to: GoFaster |
Payson, AZ | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Blew your goal out of the water Neil. Nice job |
2013-06-12 11:22 PM in reply to: bzgl40 |
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Well done Neil! |
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2013-06-13 1:53 AM in reply to: ChrisM |
Champion 6656 | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN In Paris. I did a run this morning around the 8th district and bought myself a chocolate croissant on the way home. Best thing ever. I haven't don't much tri related physical civilly over the past week. Just moved all my stuff to Prince George and dancing. Jet lag was killing me a little yesterday but we did the Arc de triomphe and the opera yesterday. Today off to le louvre! |
2013-06-13 2:48 AM in reply to: GoFaster |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Great time Neil!! |
2013-06-13 4:29 AM in reply to: Jason N |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Hi Jason, As a diabetic I have a fair amount of experience on this topic and have read a lot, because I rely very heavily on use of fat storage since I can't take many carbs. A few years ago I was tested for my fat utilization and I had an abnormal use of fats. Even in higher HR zones I was burning a lot of fat. The lab/testers at the National Training center in Clermont were very surprised. I am a strong believer that it's more diet related than zone related. I do have a diet which is much higher in fats and protein since I can't take on carbs. Bob Sebohar wrote a book on it and has been testing people for a few years. I think he also puts more of an emphasis on the diet side. Coggan did some research as well and found the same. I know Lance was a believer in it, as were his infamous doctors. I think the benefits you would derive from a very high fat diet are not worth it. I eat high fat/protein because I have to but I am also at a disadvantage of not getting the benefits of a better balanced diet. I would also bet that you could improve your fat burning abilities by timing your carbs and trying to eat foods with a very low glycemic index. I think this only is necessary if you can't take on carbs during a race. Some people just can't. |
2013-06-13 4:37 AM in reply to: axteraa |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Originally posted by axteraa So, on the sub 5 hour HIM subject. I will admit to thinking that if things go well in MT, I will be right around it but I have no intention of chasing it just for the sake of a number if it's looking unrealistic come race day. Swim: 27 mins (half of my IM time and the fastest in my AG last year were high 26, low 27) - lots of variables here that could swing this up or down. T1: 4:30 - about average for ppl last year with the long run from the water to the transition area Bike: 2:40 - this one is a bit of an unknown for me. I am loosely basing it on this chart which is a bunch of data points from the full IM last year, plotting their time against their average power w/KG - someone on ST through it together. While I haven't gotten a specific power target from Shane yet, based on what I am seeing in the workouts he is giving me I'm thinking it will be in the 2.8-2.9 w/KG range which had people riding around 5:20 for the full. I'm the dot at the 5:50 / 2.25 w/KG point on that chart. T2: 2:00 - again seems average from last year That leaves me 1:46:29 for the run. This I know is a bit slower than the pace Shane will have me targeting based on what we have discussed. Have I over-analysed it enough? I honestly didn't make up numbers to try to get sub 5, it just came out that way. This all goes out the window if it's hot, or windy or anything outside of good weather for that matter. I also realize that I have zero experience at this distance and I'm likely to just mess up a good plan. Based on the way you have been training I would be very surprised if you don't go under 5. |
2013-06-13 6:25 AM in reply to: marcag |
Payson, AZ | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Probably not much in the way of work outs the next few days as the movers come to pack this morning. I'll probably go a little insane today/tomorrow but come Saturday I fully expect to be out on my bike. Woot |
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2013-06-13 6:29 AM in reply to: marcag |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Originally posted by marcag Based on the way you have been training I would be very surprised if you don't go under 5. Thanks Marc. Like I said, I am not going to chase the number. I will do my best to just stick to the plan and let it come out how it comes out. |
2013-06-13 6:30 AM in reply to: bzgl40 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Originally posted by bzgl40 Probably not much in the way of work outs the next few days as the movers come to pack this morning. I'll probably go a little insane today/tomorrow but come Saturday I fully expect to be out on my bike. Woot Double woot! |
2013-06-13 6:59 AM in reply to: Jason N |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Originally posted by Jason N The reason I gave this advice is because most people vastly underestimate how easy you need to ride in order to properly pace a HIM to attain "the best race I can run." And you'll learn FAR more from your first HIM if you paced it 2-5 minutes too easy than if you paced it a little too hard and struggle on the run. I *thought* that with much better bike fitness the last past 2 years I could start to push the bike a little bit harder and still run well. I sort of got away with it in 2012 by running about 5 minutes slower than expected, but I didn't get away with it at all this year. When I do my next HIM, I'm going to ride more conservatively. I'm just not strong enough of a runner yet to take full advantage of my strenghs in biking. That is so true. I think they also misunderstand just how easy it is to get a bit carried away on race day. A much higher output just *feels* quite a bit easier with the taper and especially from the excitement of race day. I'm not sure the improved biking helped the running tremendously either. Think I could go a little harder relatively, but would likely be due to it taking less time to finish. The running did get better, but was hard to tell for sure as many ended up being progression style, getting faster as I went on. Wonder if it will be easier to tell this year with the improved swimming. That really got in the way of things before as I was much more tired from the swim than I thought. Showed up more on long course than short. Another area many really underestimate how easy it needs to be, but maybe in a little different way. |
2013-06-13 8:05 AM in reply to: GoFaster |
Veteran 1677 Houston, Texas | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Crushed that 5:40, Neil -- awesome!! Melissa -- very jealous of your chocolate croissant. Enjoy France! Kim -- best of luck with the move. Bet you're ready, huh?! |
2013-06-13 8:07 AM in reply to: ChrisM |
Veteran 1677 Houston, Texas | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Since we've been talking about bike fits a bit, I thought I'd ask a question: if I've already had two bike fits, but still have issues, is it worth trying to get another fit four weeks out from my HIM? And some history: Before I bought my tri bike back in September, I spent good money to have a professional (highly recommended) fitter set me up on his infinitely adjustable bike, and tell me which bikes (and what sizes) would work for me. Went out and bought a P2....came back and had him set it up. Having never ridden a tri bike, I figured it'd take a while to get used to it. The saddle pressure was killing me. I contacted the fitter a number of times within the first two months, but he basically told me to try chamois cream, change my shorts, make small adjustments in height and angles.....and finally to try a different saddle. He seemed unwilling to let me come back in and have him make the changes, so I did a bunch of stuff on my own, basically changing the bike position from how he set me up.... After six more months of painful saddle issues (mostly chafing on the inner leg), I found a new fitter (also highly recommended). We made some significant changes (lowered the saddle, moved it forward, changed the stem, dropped the bars, probably some other stuff). The chafing went away, but my knee started hurting. I went back to him (as he was willing to let me come back and make changes) and we made some more changes....my knee stopped hurting and the inner leg chafing was gone....but I started having saddle sore issues. I've made some more changes in the time since that fit, but I can't seem to get through this. Just last weekend, I had to cut my ride (very) short due to some significant saddle issues. I stayed off till this morning, but got on and had another ride of pure torture. Seems that every time I go to a fitter, I trade one issue for a new one (saddle pressure to chafing to knee pain to saddle sores to....?). I think my saddle issues are two-fold. First, I think there's a fit issue in there....but second, I think I just haven't found a good saddle for me. And I don't know how to go about finding a good saddle without spending a significant amount of money (none of the shops around here have a wide selection in their demo fleet).
First fitter guy has a neat technology to analyze saddle pressure as you're riding. I'm tempted to go back to him, but concerned that he'll be unwilling to let me come in for minor tweaks down the road, if needed. Also really unsure what to do if I bring in the two saddles I own and neither one work for me.... I'm pretty sure I can continue to fight through the pain (at least through the HIM), but I just wish I could find some relief on the saddle. Thoughts? [Sorry, I know that was long and drawn out, but just trying to give some insight as to where I'm coming from] |
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2013-06-13 8:29 AM in reply to: ligersandtions |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
2013-06-13 10:47 AM in reply to: marcag |
Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Originally posted by marcagHi Jason,As a diabetic I have a fair amount of experience on this topic and have read a lot, because I rely very heavily on use of fat storage since I can't take many carbs.A few years ago I was tested for my fat utilization and I had an abnormal use of fats. Even in higher HR zones I was burning a lot of fat. The lab/testers at the National Training center in Clermont were very surprised. I am a strong believer that it's more diet related than zone related. I do have a diet which is much higher in fats and protein since I can't take on carbs.Bob Sebohar wrote a book on it and has been testing people for a few years. I think he also puts more of an emphasis on the diet side.Coggan did some research as well and found the same.I know Lance was a believer in it, as were his infamous doctors.I think the benefits you would derive from a very high fat diet are not worth it. I eat high fat/protein because I have to but I am also at a disadvantage of not getting the benefits of a better balanced diet.I would also bet that you could improve your fat burning abilities by timing your carbs and trying to eat foods with a very low glycemic index.I think this only is necessary if you can't take on carbs during a race. Some people just can't. Thanks MarcVery helpful. I do believe that we can make adjustments to our metabolism through diet. Such as eating 6-7 small meals to get our bodies used to constantly burning off whatever we eat rather than storing most of it if we chose to only eat 2 bid meals a day. So it's interesting to hear about your diet and how it may have changed how gour body metabolizes fat more often during exercise. If you train your body to know it will mostly have fat available for energy, it makes sense that it will look for fat to bur n first.Now I'm remembering that recent article about macca and race weight. And how he ztarted having better success when he showed up to kona woith a little more fat.I don't think ill be changing that much about my diet, but interesting discussion. |
2013-06-13 10:51 AM in reply to: Fred D |
Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Originally posted by Fred D Question - would you consider Tremblant a hillier course?
I don't know what a 'hillier course' means to you so can't answer. I've done the most vertically challenging course in America (Savageman) and the flattest as well (Eagleman). They are challenging in different ways, but honestly it was always incredibly predictable watching people come down to Blackwater in hopes of breaking 5 hours in a HIM. The vast majority that I knew doing this missed by quite a bit, in fact they had much better PRs on more 'normal' courses with hills and such. People rarely took into consideration that the challenge of Eagleman was not only the extreme heat, but also the fact that there are NO BREAKS IN PEDALLING at all. No downhills ever and the return to T2 usually was into a headwind. There have been some years that Eagleman has yielded a number of sub-5 splits, but most years not.
I really believe that the downstream or current assist swims make the sub-5 thing more reachable (B2B and Augusta etc).... but then again all you are doing is chasing a semi-pointless number at that stage. Sub-5 at Savageman usually equals the top amateur overall (or close). Which courses are 'hillier' all depends, but in the end most courses end at the same start and end point so unless it's extreme I don't know how to tell you the difference. PS, if I can race MT 70.3, odds of me going sub-5 are essentially zero lol. The part I bolded was exactly my experience at IM Western Australia. That course is flatter than Florida. With a big tailwind, I would coast and/or sit up once in awhile. Staying on the aerobars so much was challenging. And the heat was something terrible... my joule 2 had it recorded at 102F around 10am. Combine that with the boredom of a 3 loop bike course and 4 loop run course, and it was a very challenging day. I beat my time from Coeur d'Alene, but just barely. |
2013-06-13 12:08 PM in reply to: TSimone |
Veteran 1677 Houston, Texas | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Originally posted by TSimone Nicole - My $.02: First, what saddle are you currently using? Some shops may be willing to let you test drive some. Everybody is different, but I prefer ISM saddles. As for the fitter, I would just talk to him and tell him your concerns. Nothing to lose there. This goes without saying, but you shouldn't have to fight thru pain. I don't know how much saddle time you have on that setup but there will be some period of acclimation. Hope it works out for ya. I have rougly 160 hours on the bike since September, 2012. I started with an ISM Adamo Road Gel saddle and could never get comfortable on it -- that lasted for roughly 25 hours. I then bought a Cobb V-flow Plus and put about 117 hours on it....that's when the saddle sore issues started popping up, so I decided to go back to the Adamo about a month ago and have since put another 20 hours on it. I've not hear of anyone taking that long to get used to a saddle (that was right for them). FWIW, the first fitter is an independent fitter, not affiliated with any shops -- good in that he give unbiased opinions on what bikes to purchase (because he doesn't profit from it anyways), but bad in that he does not have a fleet of demo saddles. I'm not entirely sure which saddle to try next, but I'm considering the new ISM Attack as it seems to have positive reviews. Maybe I can get my hands on one and take all three saddles to the fitter and see if we can find a position that works. |
2013-06-13 12:50 PM in reply to: mndymond |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Originally posted by mndymond In Paris. I did a run this morning around the 8th district and bought myself a chocolate croissant on the way home. Best thing ever. I haven't don't much tri related physical civilly over the past week. Just moved all my stuff to Prince George and dancing. Jet lag was killing me a little yesterday but we did the Arc de triomphe and the opera yesterday. Today off to le louvre! Time on feet, right? |
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2013-06-13 12:55 PM in reply to: spudone |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Originally posted by spudone The part I bolded was exactly my experience at IM Western Australia. That course is flatter than Florida. With a big tailwind, I would coast and/or sit up once in awhile. Staying on the aerobars so much was challenging. And the heat was something terrible... my joule 2 had it recorded at 102F around 10am. Combine that with the boredom of a 3 loop bike course and 4 loop run course, and it was a very challenging day. I beat my time from Coeur d'Alene, but just barely. The difficulties of a super flat course certainly tend to be under-appreciated. The time it takes to complete a long course event is so long that it is quite difficult to do the exact same thing the entire duration. One has to really get used to it and/or learn rather well how to incorporate breaks that don't come naturally from say terrain. |
2013-06-13 1:10 PM in reply to: brigby1 |
Elite 7783 PEI, Canada | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Just read the Athlete Guide for MT 70.3 and I'm in wave 12 of 14 - blegh! |
2013-06-13 1:10 PM in reply to: GoFaster |
Veteran 2842 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Originally posted by GoFaster Originally posted by mcmanusclan5 Negative split was never going to happen tonight. I got slotted with three other guys and we were the first group to go off. Pace started off quick right away, but I was prepared for that and fell second into line, but got pushed back into third within a couple of hundred meters. Pace felt hard but good for the first lap, looked at my watch and saw us go through at 1:15 - oh crap, that's too fast. I fell off a couple of strides but 3/4 of us came through 200M together. Then the guy running second decided he needed to up the pace and jumped into the lead, and the original leader tried to go with him. I just watched them go - I was already breathing pretty hard and knew I couldn't match their pace. By the end of the 3rd lap, I was a couple of sec back of second, and the front runner was a good 50M ahead. Pushed hard through the final lap, and tried to hold the same pace while breathing hard. Finished in 5:31. Originally posted by TankBoy Originally posted by GoFasterAbout time - I couldn't stand that user name either...(where's the red font???) I'm doing a timed mile at the track with the running group tonight. I'm going to try and run a 5:40, but may completely blow up (basically ran 6 flat a year ago my first time doing it). I'm thinking of trying to evenly pace it as 1:25 a lap. Any thoughts? Neil, if I were really serious about it I would walk and do dynamic stretching for about 15 minutes followed by 15 or maybe even 20 minutes of easy running working up to the top of my base zone depending on how I felt. I would throw in a handful of strides at the end. Then finish my warmup with 2x400, 1st at 1:30ish (and err on letting it be a bit slower just to get a good feel for the pace) then try to nail the second one right at 1:25 after a couple of minutes of recovery. Four more minutes of walking/easy jogging recovery, and then run out at 1:23 and target a slight fade. If you are racing the group you would probably have to run it differently, but (for me anyway) I have found that running a slight fade to garner me the better TT time on the mile. x2 on the slight fade. If your kick at the end shows a big uptick in pace, you *probably* are leaving at least a little out there. If your all out, turn yourself inside out kick holds your pace or is a slight increase over the last 100m, then you probably have very little left to give. At least that's been my experience, as well. YMMV, as some folks swear by the negative split for all running events. I like negatives for distances I haven't run, for races that I want to finish well and not be crushed after and for certain workouts - but for a best time, the slightest of fades has produced my best times over the years... and the most pain. Hope you suffer well! Matt Awesome! Sounds like you ran it perfectly, as you handily beat the target! Well run. Matt |
2013-06-13 1:35 PM in reply to: GoFaster |
Pro 4482 NJ | Subject: RE: SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN Neil, nice job! I am muddling my way through taper stupidity. Went for a short spin early yesterday morning. Got home and put gloves, glasses, shoes etc on the trunk of my car while I was putting away the bike. Quick potty break and then headed into town to grab coffee. Yep, with gear on the trunk of the car. Bike stuff was strewn all over the road before I noticed. Fortunately I was able to collect everything without any damage. I haven't actually made it through training without injury in so long that I forgot what tapering was like. I head up to MA tomorrow. Race is Saturday morning. It's my first HIM and supposed to be a first-timer friendly race. But it's flat. I ride mostly hills and city traffic around here. I expect a long, slow day. |
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