Fred D's triathlon training group CLOSED (Page 81)

Rudy - that wasn't much of a scolding (wasn't at all in  my book), but I thought a pretty good discussion, although you do espouse a philosophy that is at odds with a lot of respected coaches, etc.  Nothing wrong with riding balls out, but if you are not trained to follow that up with a solid run, you will suffer.  At least that's what I got out of it.

But then again I spent 56 miles at Oceanside telling myself to save it for the run.  Got a 44 minute PR out of it, and had I gone balls out on the bike, I may have ridden 10 minutes faster, but I would have run 27 minutes slower (which was my run improvement from 2011 to 2012).  So maybe I was riding afraid, but it seemed to work out for me.

I've heard the bike issues are those with quick release.  I don't really get the benefit of the QR, other than perhaps you can see it on the bike without looking at your wrist?  The whole QR thing, for me, is one more thing to do in transition, to drop, to lose, etc.  If I race with mine it's just going to stay on my wrist.

Marc - I run trails as often as i can and n my own experience that was a problem I had specifically with trail running over longer distances. Surging over hills on the road can be a good race tactic, but at least where i run we typically don't have the kinds of sharp grades or unevenness on the road that you do on the trails. When I started working with a running coach a couple of years ago the first thing he had me do was get my run cadence in line with my bike cadence (there was no magic number we were working toward, but it did bring my running cadence up just a bit), and the second thing we did was work on a more even effort during the ups and downs of trail running. At first this was VERY frustrating, as I would have to come to this weird quickstep walk up long steep grades. That changed pretty quickly as I adapted and became more adept at keeping my cadence high up hills (vs. almost bounding like I used to) and now I get up hills very efficiently and quickly and even get a little recovery on them. I now have enough HR space to hammer the downs on the backside. Learning to run with a higher cadence on the ups now feels almost like dropping into a lower gear and spinning on the bike.

you are lighter stronger and faster, and are reaping the benefit of seasons of knowledge, and as a result you are having a breakout season. And i think it is wonderful.

you rode with confidence in your training and with a plan, it is different than riding afraid. I see sooo many reports that say i shoulda went harder on the bike, to me that is riding afraid, not trusting your training.

i just don't see telling someone to slow down as the correct answer, i was probably way over the top with my response, but slow down i do not believe is a viable solution. Train harder to go harder, maybe.  I have a really hard time expressing what i want in type, always have.

No, I think you got your message across     Actually, I agree that you have to blow up on occasion to see if you can do it without blowing up.  If you never push to the next level, you never know if you can

First you slag the pace function & then the QR - what's wrong with you????

Admittedly, I love my 305.  I know that lots of people viw th epace and distance as suspect, but I follow mine religiously and as yet I haven't found it to be wrong.  Current pace, yes it's a bit wonky, but lap and average pace I really like and trust.

As for QR, I liked using it before I moved to the PT because it meant that it was already on the bike when I got to T1 (since I wasn't swimming with it), and I just had to wrap the velcro around my wrist and off I went.  Coming into T2 snap it from bike to wrist.  I always liked having the QR.  If I was using the 910 for power, I'd certainly want it on the bike and not on my wrist.

x2 on the 800 - my two favorite features are the routing/turn-by-turn stuff and the "look ahead" for topographical changes (hills, descents, etc). I love having the real-time info on time and distance to the next turn as well as an idea about upcoming terrain, especially on new/unfamiliar training routes and races. In the mountains it is great to know where you are on the climb as well. Since I have been using the terrain look ahead my VI has come way down on long, steady state rides. I think it has been a key factor in allowing me to ride my last two centuries at 80%+ of FTP.

Just for ease of viewing?  I guess I've read a few too many posts about a $400 watch lying at the bottom of a swim course.  Granted, probably rare, but 1 in a million ain't great odds if you're the one

Fred, great post in the "do we need a new forum" thread

a lot of interesting idea's are being passed around.

That was my plan for IMLP this year - not actually to go into the race intending to blow up, but to get up on the razor's edge and suffer the district possibility. I really want to race IM as fast as I am capable next year, and I feel like knowing where those edges are is crucial for that. This knee thing has changed my race strategy somewhat, as goal number one for this year's race is "do no harm," especially in light of next year's goals. With the race coming up I sure would like to know what you all think about IM pacing, especially in light of my current circumstances. It is really the kind of thing Bryan could have given some key insight on.

Oh, and Fred, don't take LB's bait; [mean-spirited stuff edited out by author].

Regarding blowing up...

I also think it's something we should try from time to time.  Last year I tried to blow up during an Oly.  I rode 85 miles the day before (mainly training for bike racing and was doing the Oly "for fun") and tried to ride the bike leg as hard as I could with the goal of posting a fast split and possibly even dropping out on the run (managed top 10 out of 600).  The run was tough, but not nearly as tough as I thought and still cut 3 minutes off my previous year's time.  Most of that was due to increased overall fitness...but it wasn't an epic blow up either.

That race gave me a lot of confidence going into this years HIM.  I wouldn't race as hard, but knew that if I pushed it more than I did my first HIM, I wouldn't die.  I had put in the training on the bike and the run, so it was a matter of trusting it.  I can see how if you are undertrained, and cannot trust your bike and run fitness...then yes, you should be affraid, and you might be better off racing affraid.  But that is a reflection on your poor training and fitness...not a poor race strategy.

Interesting - I initially bristled at the bolded ... because that isn't always true or fair to say in certain situations.  Its good to push limits at times but it's important to be smart about it.  What you suggest takes some experience and I would not say should be used for your first race attempts at certain distances.  And that using it in a race that isn't your 'A' race is a nice low risk place to try. 

I can tell you I will trust my training and fitness going to IM, but I most certainly will NOT to be attempting to set my land-speed record there.  I did a similar thing with an Oly this year where I did push the pace.  I will use that training feedback as well as my long rides, recovery, brick runs to assess what my race strategy will be on the bike and set myself up for a decent run.   After all the money spent, signing up more than a year in advance, and all these months of training i really really want to hear 'Jennifer, you are an Ironman' at the end.

There are enough other unknowns and variables at the distance that I am going not to knowingly put myself in the way of blow up there.  For others who have done it multiple times and really want to test their fitness to really push their competitive edge then it might be the place. But maybe you said it yourself, using a tune-up to give you feedback on where that edge is for your fitness is exactly the thing to do so you can plan a smart race strategy for those A races.  

Jen, don't take what i said personally, i was not referring to the Full distance.  The full distance is a totally different animal from Half and shorter, even i would not try to hammer a full IM, then again, i will never do one, so i guess i don't have that worry.  Sorry.

Don't worry at all - as i said, it was an initial reaction and I get it for various scenarios.  Plus, honestly, i am getting to that crazy part of training where i am so tired but I still have all this nervous energy going on so i am thinking about so many variables right now (nutrition, heat, fatigue, hills, etc)

Racing and pacing strategies are interesting because people can come at them from different places.There is definite value in taking the opportunity to find out where the edge of one's fitness really is ... how else will we ever really improve? 

I think the above ^^ is a good microcosm of the current problem behind "should BT have another forum" thread.  I also had a reaction to that phrase....   It's pretty loaded.  I know it's not directed ant anyone specifically, but when someone has spent months training for an event which does not go well, that statement (which may or may not be correct, someone may blow up even if they've trained well) is difficult to digest. 

I would also think that the issue does not just apply to IMs but for most people to HIMs.  You can fake your way through an Oly, you can't fake your way through a HIM.  For many (most) HIM and IM is a "just to finish" thing (which is a whole 'nuther can o worms) and most people aren't "racing" them beyond simply going as fast as their training will allow.  I know that's true fo me.

ETA  - the hard part about pacing long course for me at least is that it's not "how fast can I go" but "how fast can I go so that I am still running X miles later"   That's not easy to figure out

I feel that I can say this here...but would get murdered in the main forums.

IMHO, over 50% of the people who even attempt a HIM, are not adequately trained.  So when someone asks, why did I blow up on the run...the answer more times than not really is "you don't have enough bike or run fitness to avoid a blow up".  I think too many people like to sugar coat it and say..."oh, you probably just went too hard on the bike, or you didn't take in enough calories", etc, etc.  Some of that may be true...but the underlying reason is they don't have enough fitness to bike 56 miles then run 13.1...after swimming.  Plain and simple.

It's amazing how people will make excuses and avoid the truth.  Anytime someone asks a question like that, I immediately look at their logs, or ask for their training information...because 90% of the time the answer is right there.  It may not be the warm and fuzzy BT answer...but wouldn't you want to know how to fix the problem the next time around rather than being encouraged by wrong answers just to make you feel better?

The other 10% of the time when the athlete is sufficiently trained...now that makes for a good discussion because we can actually try to discuss other things that may have gone wrong.

But then again...this is BEGINNER TRIATHLETE right?

Jason, you are such a douche.

Even so I find it difficult to disagree with your point of view. The thing is I have no problem with someone going into a race undertrained - Lord knows I have probably raced under prepared more often than not. It is just funny that it is so difficult for folks to admit it. I think I said it earlier, but I do think that the more under-trained you are the more nutrition, hydration, pacing, etc. matters. The more fit you are the more "space" you have to err in these other areas. So I can make a choice - do the work to increase my fitness, or obsess about the decision to take in 225 calories vs. 250 per hour on the bike. Even though the "bike more," "swim more," and "run more" advice always seems too simple and trite, it is pretty good advice. Especially if by "more" means smarter/harder.

Just a theory, I could be WAY wrong.

Hi - my name is Neil, and I've blown up at the HIM distance on both attempts. 

I totally agree with Jason, the first time I raced HIM, it was in my second year.  I had no real idea what to expect, and I really wasn't prepared enough - not just from training that season but building up with a few years of endurance in the body.  The second go last year was a bitter disappointment, because I'm still not sure what went wrong - two additonal years and lots more km and I managed a whopping 2min improvement.  I'm hoping a lot more focus on swim fitness, some over distance rides, and more time running will pay off this year.  We'll find out in 8 weeks.

On a side note I don't know how you guys train for a full.  I know that my body just does not seem to be prepared to tackle something of that distance, with the training that's required.  I think I would fall apart...Each time I do a "long" ride for me, I gain a little more respect for everyone who puts in the time and km to race IM.  I still have doubts about my ability to run well (heck, just run), coming off the bike at the HIM distance.