Power Mentor Group with Shane &amp; Marc - Closed. (Page 73)

2014-05-06 8:41 PM

in reply to: 0

1053

Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.

Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by ImSore

Originally posted by marcag

Was the course relatively flat ?

It looks like 3 loops, headwind first half of each, tailwind 2nd half.
Strongest headwind 2nd loop, if that makes sense.

What temperature was it ?

I'll try to do some more analysis

Nice how you worked that all out. It's like magic.

Flat course.

Correct about 3 loops, and correct about the wind based on my memory, and even checking weather underground, wind went from 5mph to 10 mph back to 5mph.

Temperature was roughly 65 deg F/ 18 deg C.

At first glance it looks like there is room for some aero optimization but with the wind it makes it little harder.
I am seeing a cda of between .30 and .32 but need to look a little more. If this is correct, and to be determined, there is some room for optimization.
I will try to write up what I looked for but the Montreal Canadians are playing the Boston Bruins, so I am a little pre-occupied :-)

What was the road surface like ?

Rough on the way out of the first loop for a few miles, other than that, average.

Nicole,

I checked out your race report, and it sounds like you had a great race, congrats! I am definitely going to get out to Utah for a race at some point. I visited there as a kid, and I still have vivid memories of it as one of the most beautiful places I've ever been.

Dale,

I was in the "sprinter" group, so I didn't do many Vo2 max workouts. I did throw one or two in as an extra 4th bike workout during the program though. But yes, I mashed my way through most of the workouts with my cadence in the low 70s. But racing, I've always ended up in the 80s. I averaged 85 rpm for this race. So I found that interesting too. I just go with what feels comfortable at the time though. I do plan on intentionally varying my cadence a bit during some rides, especially some high RPM spinning, since I don't feel to comfortable at very high rpms, and want to work on some coordination.

Edited by ImSore 2014-05-06 8:53 PM

2014-05-07 9:02 AM

in reply to: 0

Extreme Veteran

5722

Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.

Originally posted by ImSore

Flat course.

Correct about 3 loops, and correct about the wind based on my memory, and even checking weather underground, wind went from 5mph to 10 mph back to 5mph.

Temperature was roughly 65 deg F/ 18 deg C.

OK, here is one opinion, this is not 100% accurate. Heck it may be 0% accurate :-)

I used botth aerolab in GC as well as the bike power calculator

in Aerolab, you need air density. There is a tool to figure this out in the tools menu

Pressure 1024 hPha
Temperature 18c
Density 1.22

You will see that for this calculation precision is not critical, the wind, plays too much of a factor

Second I estimated his Crr at .0045. He has good tires on average roads. This can be measured more accurately, but for the sake of the conversation this is good enough.
You can play with ranges of .004 to .005 and then the CDA, but in this case the wind is screwing things up enough that it probably doesn't make that much of a difference
I used .0042 to make things line up.

I used 80kg rider weight + 12kg equipment. Bike, helmet.....it may be more or less but on a flat course should not make huge difference.

So the green line is actual elevation.
The blue line is a theoretical elevation, calculated from his power, speed, weight, drag and rolling resistance.

I play with the cda slider to make the two somewhat line up, although I can't get them to.

You see the 3 points where the blue line comes across the green line.
From km 0 to km 8 (5miles), he appears to be going up a hill. That is because he is going into a headwind, going slower per watts. The s/w thinks it's due to uphill hill.
From km 8 (5miles) to 20 (12 miles) , he appears to be going down. This is because he has a tail win and going faster than expected. The s/w thinks he is going downhill
From 20 (12miles) to 27km he going back up but following the green line.
From km 23 to 27, the blue line matches the green line or close. that's because from mile 14 to 17 he is probably at a cross wind.

This all makes sense with the course map

This is what makes me believe his cda as per the slider is probably around .32 ish

Another data point.
Let's say between km 2 and 8, which we says is in a flat headwind
258watts 35.7km/h

http://bikecalculator.com/veloMetricNum.html
80kg rider, 12kg equipment, 258watts on flat, .32 cda, .0042crr should be going 38.25
Add a 4-5km headwind and it brings him to that 35.7

I would suggest you do some testing on a day without wind because if you are .32, you have room from improvement

Varying headwinds make this difficult. As well, the green elevation isn't 100% correct as you see it shows a slight overall uphill

More could be done to make this more accurate, but if it was me, I would test with less wind.

Edited by marcag 2014-05-07 9:10 AM

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2014-05-07 1:50 PM

in reply to: marcag

1053

Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.

Marc,

Thanks for the analysis. I hope they post some picutres so I can check out my position. I did stay in aero except for a brief section on each loop where I took care of some nutrition needs. I pushed my bars together and forward as suggested earlier in the thread, and I think that is helping, but I probably need to drop the bars down a bit and rotate forward, as also suggested. I will leave that to a professional fitter.

I don't have many good local roads, but I definitely want to get a good test in pre-fit, so I will work on that.

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp...

Here is my race report. The results page posts the bike at 58 miles, and this site pulls up the race as 57.2 mi, so I am actually not sure about how long this race was, but I am pretty sure it was longer than 56 but less than 58 since there is no way I did another 4 miles in 6 minutes, and I know I didn't drop under a 20 mph average for 2 miles on the way out either, I was pretty worked up about my terrible swim, and was riding pretty hard. Either way, I had a great ride, and certainly would not have done as well if not for the group.

2014-05-07 2:46 PM

in reply to: ImSore

Extreme Veteran

5722

Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.

Quick question,

how/when do you calibrate ?

which model Quarq do you have ?

2014-05-07 4:20 PM

in reply to: marcag

1053

Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.

Quarq Elsa

Usually I manually zero before each ride through the Garmin, drive side crank arm at 6 o'clock. I used the autozero backpedal to calibrate since I was already riding and obviously didn't want to stop (again, I forgot to turn my computer on before I left transition). I've done the autozero before and it seems pretty accurate.

I was a bit concerned that the reading would be off without a manual zero, but it "felt" right, if that makes sense. I did a 3:30 training ride at 249 NP, and I figured at near 260 NP I should be able to do roughly 2:30 and be able to run. Also when my watts were near 260, my HR was good, so I just went with it.

2014-05-07 4:32 PM

in reply to: ImSore

Extreme Veteran

5722

Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.

Originally posted by ImSore

Quarq Elsa

Usually I manually zero before each ride through the Garmin, drive side crank arm at 6 o'clock. I used the autozero backpedal to calibrate since I was already riding and obviously didn't want to stop (again, I forgot to turn my computer on before I left transition). I've done the autozero before and it seems pretty accurate.

I was a bit concerned that the reading would be off without a manual zero, but it "felt" right, if that makes sense. I did a 3:30 training ride at 249 NP, and I figured at near 260 NP I should be able to do roughly 2:30 and be able to run. Also when my watts were near 260, my HR was good, so I just went with it.

Good. I think the autozero is more accurate. The manual zero had some 'badness' going on when done immediately after waking up the PM. They fixed it in a firmware patch.

What kind of Garmin do you use ?

Try this. Wake up the Quarq. Do a manual zero and get a value. Keep the screen on that value and pedal backwards 5 times. The autozero will occur. Note the autozero number. Ride for 20min and repeat.

Mine used to drift 15 units, 5watts doing this. The latest firmware makes this very even.

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-road-bike/city-of-toronto/american-classic-420-aero-wheelset-with-powertap/588569878?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

Scott71

2014-05-08 2:02 PM

in reply to: marcag

Oakville

Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.

Congratulations to the recent racers! I am very jealous and can't wait to get started.

The weather has improved in Southern Ontario but I'm still doing the majority of my workouts in the trainer (starting back at week 8). I really need to get out on the pavement and do some real riding.

I've been periodically checking Kijiji and other classified ads for power meters and stumbled across this ad:

I'm thinking of looking into it, but should I be concerned that its a rebuilt Powertap with G3 electronics?

Also, I raced last season with a FLO 90 rear and wheelbuilder aero jacket.

It is my understanding that a wheel cover over any rim would have essentially the same aero performance to my FLO. The only variable would be the weight - with the FLO being on the heavier side.

Is this fair to say, or would these rims (with a cover) be less aero than my FLO (with a cover)?

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-road-bike/city-of-toronto/american-classic-420-aero-wheelset-with-powertap/588569878?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

2014-05-08 6:26 PM

in reply to: Scott71

Extreme Veteran

5722

Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.

Originally posted by Scott71

Congratulations to the recent racers! I am very jealous and can't wait to get started.

I've been periodically checking Kijiji and other classified ads for power meters and stumbled across this ad:

I'm thinking of looking into it, but should I be concerned that its a rebuilt Powertap with G3 electronics?

Also, I raced last season with a FLO 90 rear and wheelbuilder aero jacket.

It is my understanding that a wheel cover over any rim would have essentially the same aero performance to my FLO. The only variable would be the weight - with the FLO being on the heavier side.

Is this fair to say, or would these rims (with a cover) be less aero than my FLO (with a cover)?

I am not an expert on this, but the width of the wheel and matching to tire will also make a difference in overall speed. I suspect the Flo will be faster and you can run a little wider tire for less rolling resistance.

I have read and need to confirm that the actual perfect combination is a 23mm tire on the front and a 25mm tire on the back.

What kind of crank are you using ?

Do you have a flo front ?

I suspect selling the flo rear with cover will be easy but wonder if the economics of it, after buying a new cover.....make it worth while. I will keep an eye out at Canadian sites.

Scott71

2014-05-08 7:52 PM

in reply to: 0

Oakville

Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.

I am not an expert on this, but the width of the wheel and matching to tire will also make a difference in overall speed. I suspect the Flo will be faster and you can run a little wider tire for less rolling resistance. I have read and need to confirm that the actual perfect combination is a 23mm tire on the front and a 25mm tire on the back. What kind of crank are you using ? Do you have a flo front ? I suspect selling the flo rear with cover will be easy but wonder if the economics of it, after buying a new cover.....make it worth while. I will keep an eye out at Canadian sites.

Last year I raced a FLO 60 on the front and the FLO 90 on the rear with the cover. Both 23 mm with the Conti GP4000s tires and latex tubes.

I wasn't plan on selling the FLO 90 just adding a new powertap rear to the stable. But now that I think of it, not sure how much use it would get.

I'd love to lace a powertap to it, but unfortunately that's not an option.

My crank is the base component on the B16 - FSA Omega Compact MegaExo (175mm).

I haven't seen any crank based power meters in the classifieds, but I wasn't looking too hard because I'd like a power meter that I could easily swap to my Trek road bike.

Edited by Scott71 2014-05-08 8:01 PM

2014-05-08 8:05 PM

in reply to: marcag

1053

Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.

Originally posted by marcag

Edge 705. I will try tomorrow and see what comes up, I forgot your exact instructions and manually calibrated, rode for 30 minutes, then autozeroed.

What is the relation between units and watts? When I calibrated today, the first number that came up was 4. What is that? Also, when I autozero, it doesn't give me that calibration number. It just stops at a number, then goes to zero after 4 revolutions.

2014-05-08 8:23 PM

in reply to: ImSore

Extreme Veteran

5722

Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.

Originally posted by ImSore

Edge 705. I will try tomorrow and see what comes up, I forgot your exact instructions and manually calibrated, rode for 30 minutes, then autozeroed.

What is the relation between units and watts? When I calibrated today, the first number that came up was 4. What is that? Also, when I autozero, it doesn't give me that calibration number. It just stops at a number, then goes to zero after 4 revolutions.

3 units = 1 watt

So if you start off the ride and manual zero and it says 4. Then at the end of the ride you do the same thing and it says -8. You had a drift of 12 units = 4watts.

Chances are the last number is more accurate than the first. If you see large drifts between the 2 numbers, you probably want to be auto-zeroing now and then.

ligersandtions

2014-05-09 8:11 AM

in reply to: marcag

Veteran

1677

Houston, Texas

Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.

So the TrainerRoad guys are at it again with their 8 Days in California tour -- eight consecutive days on the bike, amassing a pretty huge TSS by the end.

We briefly touched on this toward the start of the mentor group as the Tour of Sufferlandria was starting, but I don't know that I ever got a really solid answer. So I'm curious: how much (if any) benefit do you think one gets from putting in a rather huge volume for one week?

Is there a time of the season where this would be more beneficial than other times?

FWIW, I think they'd do better having their 8DC tour in, say, November....when people are getting into the swing of indoor training, rather than in May, when many people are just starting to be able to ride outside. But I don't know if November (end of tri season for many of us) makes sense in the grand scheme of training??

2014-05-09 11:51 AM

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Extreme Veteran

5722

Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.

Originally posted by ligersandtions

So the TrainerRoad guys are at it again with their 8 Days in California tour -- eight consecutive days on the bike, amassing a pretty huge TSS by the end.

Is there a time of the season where this would be more beneficial than other times?

Personal opinion, for myself. Shane my find different with his great sample of athletes
Doing a big block definitely helps.

Would I do a big block of one sport, significantly reducing the other 2 in the off season. Yes, for sure.
In race season, no, I would not be will to significantly reduce the other 2.

So for example, right now a typical week will look like 400 TSS bike, 380 TSS run, 220 TSS swim for 1000 total.
Would I do 650, 350, 200 for a total of 1200. Yes. adding 200 when you are at 1000 is not insignificant.
Would I do 650, 200, 150 for a total of 1000. No, not at this time of the year, unless I had a significant weakness in my bike.

Would I do it on a trainer this time of year. Hell no :-)

But if it's motivating and fun, by all means. You could probably afford to give up a little swim. I can't :-(

Edited by marcag 2014-05-09 11:51 AM

ligersandtions

2014-05-09 12:38 PM

in reply to: marcag

Veteran

1677

Houston, Texas

Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.

Originally posted by marcag

Originally posted by ligersandtions

So the TrainerRoad guys are at it again with their 8 Days in California tour -- eight consecutive days on the bike, amassing a pretty huge TSS by the end.

Is there a time of the season where this would be more beneficial than other times?

Personal opinion, for myself. Shane my find different with his great sample of athletes Doing a big block definitely helps. Would I do a big block of one sport, significantly reducing the other 2 in the off season. Yes, for sure. In race season, no, I would not be will to significantly reduce the other 2. So for example, right now a typical week will look like 400 TSS bike, 380 TSS run, 220 TSS swim for 1000 total. Would I do 650, 350, 200 for a total of 1200. Yes. adding 200 when you are at 1000 is not insignificant. Would I do 650, 200, 150 for a total of 1000. No, not at this time of the year, unless I had a significant weakness in my bike. Would I do it on a trainer this time of year. Hell no :-) But if it's motivating and fun, by all means. You could probably afford to give up a little swim. I can't :-(

It is highly unlikely that I'll do the 8DC tour -- it's just too nice out to be riding inside on the weekend and my running is coming along nicely, so I really don't want to do anything that causes me to have to stop or scale too far back. That said, I'll probably do their Tuesday, Thursday, and maybe Friday rides just to mix it up. Then I'll be getting back to some more structured training (including another round of testing....eek!) the following week.

I think ToS timed it right....being a couple months before the season really starts. But I'm sure the TR guys don't want to try to compete with that and put it the same month or even just right after.

cdkayak

2014-06-10 2:42 PM

in reply to: marcag

Veteran

441

Maine

Subject: RE: Power Mentor Group with Shane & Marc - Closed.

Just a quick update. Did my first HIM using the PM this past weekend, the White Mountain Tri in Franconia, NH. I was able to keep the Lap Average NP at or below my target for the entire ride and that made a huge difference when getting off the bike. In hindsight based on how hilly the run was I probably should have backed off a little more on my target power to have slightly fresher legs but overall I was satisfied with the results of the day. No PR or podium but this is not a course for setting PRs.

Marc, there were some racers there from your area. Saw several Les Chicken's tri kits on the course, not sure if they were doing the Half or Oly though.

Thanks again for a good thread. Still lots to learn but this has been a great base.