IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right
-
No new posts
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller | Reply |
|
2009-07-20 10:48 AM |
Master 1254 Chesapeake, VA | Subject: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right I need some advice from all the experts in this area. I have finished IM CdA twice, but ended up walking most the marathon both times due to GI issues. In 2007, I spent most of the day in the porta-potties as I made a number of rookie mistakes when it came to nutrition. The big thing is I didn't train for my nutrition. On race day I ate oatmeal at 2 am which I had never done before. I used the GE on the course, but didn't train with it. I didn't have any sort of calorie estimate of what I should take in and when. In a sense I did everything wrong on the nutrition front in 2007 and ended up with a 5:35 marathon when I had run at 3:35 marathon 8 months before the race. In 2009 my race day goal was to nail the nutrition. My training in 2009 wasn't perfect, but I was comfortable with my overall endurance to handle the day. I trained with Infinit and Clif blocks and had zero issues during training. In short I arrived at the start line with a plan. I knew what pace I wanted in each discipline and I had a nutrition plan. On race day I got up and ate a Cliff Bar and sipped Infinit just like I did during training. By the time the cannon went off I had to pee and did so two times in the water. I also pee'ed leaving T1 so I knew I got on the bike fully hydrated. I executed the bike according to plan and never let my HR get too high. I took in 5 bottles of Infinit at 300 cals per and 2 packages of Clif Blocks at 200 cals each. In total 6 1/2 hours on the bike and 1,900 calories. I did not pee on the bike, but did in T2. All in all, I felt like I was going to execute the day perfectly as I needed to run a 4 1/2 hour marathon for my goal of 12:xx finish. I got off the bike a little gassy, but nothing bad at all. In T2 I took one Imodium. I also took 3 E-caps at that time (which I've done in training). Here is where I might have made some mistakes that ruined my race. My original plan was to run with my Fuel Belt filled with Infinit and Clif Blocks. Not being of sound mind 8 hours into the day I decided to leave my Fuel Belt in T2. I thought the Clif blocks and water could get my through. However in my rush to get out of T2, I not only left my Fuel Belt behind, I also forgot my Clif Blocks. At that point my run nutrition plan was screwed so I was forced to live off the land - something that has not worked well for me in past. The first five miles of the run were fine and I was running right at my goal 9:30 pace. I drank some water and had a few pretzels. Somewhere between miles 5 and 6 I got gas pains like I've never felt before. I took one more Imodium, but that didn't help. The only thing that made me feel somewhat comfortable was walking a very slow pace. So that is how my day ended I walked slowly from Mile 6 on. I tried everything at the feed stations - coke, chicken broth, cookies. Nothing helped. Every time I tried jogging I had to stop. In the end I finished, but my marathon took over 6 hours. So my question is can anyone make sense of what is going on? Did I ruin my day in T2? Could the lack of Infinit and calories on the run make itself known only an hour into the run? Would that cause severe gas pains? Or, were the E-caps a bad idea seeing how the day was cold and rainy? Or, was I undertrained and my body said "time to stop"? Or, am I mentally weak? That is my current theory. I am thinking that I should have pushed my body harder through the pain. I have a date with the CdA course again next June so I need to figure out what is going on. This time I will not leave my Fuel Belt in transition. That is one mistake that will be easy to correct. I just need to know what else I am missing. All advice is welcome and I will not be insulted if someone says I was undertrained and I am mentally weak. Thanks in advance for any insight you can offer! Edited by captantony 2009-07-20 11:01 AM |
|
2009-07-20 1:44 PM in reply to: #2295952 |
Expert 670 Bucks County | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right Iron virgin chiming in could be the change in nutrition, dehydration, or maybe too much ecaps saw this article today hope it helps http://triathlon.competitor.com/nutrition/combating-exercise-induce... |
2009-07-20 3:08 PM in reply to: #2295952 |
Champion 19812 MA | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right Doug, I'd suggest you cut and pasted what you wrote here and email it to Infinite to get their input on what happened. From what I have heard they are very customer friendly and want to help resolve issues. Odd thing that sticks out to me is hour into your run you had issue and what you had up until that time is what you trained with other than limited calories first hour of run. Did you always take that many 3 E Caps at a time in training? How much sodium do they have? I wonder if it was to much all at the same time and spreading them out might work better. You may have not been sweating as much asa normal since temps were cooler and you have sodium in your infinite mix? Might have added to much to push you over. Very common to get gassy off the bike as you have been consuming lots of carbs in form of various sugars and that is the effect often. Hope you can figure it out... |
2009-07-20 3:22 PM in reply to: #2296830 |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right KathyG - 2009-07-20 4:08 PM Very common to get gassy off the bike as you have been consuming lots of carbs in form of various sugars and that is the effect often. Can you elaborate on this, especially on the physiology? Thanks. |
2009-07-20 3:42 PM in reply to: #2296830 |
Master 1254 Chesapeake, VA | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right KathyG - 2009-07-20 4:08 PM Doug, I'd suggest you cut and pasted what you wrote here and email it to Infinite to get their input on what happened. From what I have heard they are very customer friendly and want to help resolve issues.
Great idea! Thanks Kathy! |
2009-07-21 8:06 AM in reply to: #2295952 |
Champion 7553 Albuquerque, New Mexico | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right Is it possible that "gassy" would happen 8 hours into the day regardless of your nutrition? How did you feel after long rides and did you have any training days that long? I'm one for "eat off the land" and luckily can handle just about anything (but then again, my run pace isn't too intense). Is it possible that you're trying to get too much with Infinit on the bike? What if you switch your bike nutrition from fluid-based to food-based (and use grocery foods)? Can you put together 1500 calories of fig bars, paydays, cookies, and bananas (or maybe 1000 calories with 500 from fluids)? Does your GI track rebel on everyday eating? You're smart, you'll get it figured out. |
|
2009-07-21 9:18 AM in reply to: #2295952 |
Pro 4608 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right I'm training for my first IM and nutrition was the hardest thing to nail. I think you're doing the right thing in trying to get it right through trial and error, but understand it is frustrating to already have done two IMs and still be working at it. I work with a coach and he had me do a sweat rate test and then determined the ounces of liquid and grams of CHO I could safely take in per hour without GI distress. I'm consuming the max for my test results but it has worked in training and HIM racing so I go with it. I'm not sure how the test results led to the CHO calculation, maybe someone else can weigh in on that or you can find it online. We all have a threshold of just how many carbs we can process before the GI issues kick in so it's important to know your own levels. Have you considered training with GE since it's on all IM courses? That's what I've been doing and it allows me to somewhat live off the land and not have to worry about something new upsetting my system on race day. I get all my nutrition from GE and gels, no solids and no water. I sip water occasionally on the run if my mouth is overly coated in the GE, but I don't actively drink it. I'm also wondering if you'd ever tried the Immodium prior to the race. Because it affects how your intestine absorbs water it could be impacting your overall hydration levels and either lead to too much fluid retention or not enough, which could cause cramping. I'm no doctor so that's just a guess. |
2009-07-21 9:46 AM in reply to: #2298146 |
Master 1254 Chesapeake, VA | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right McFuzz - 2009-07-21 9:06 AM Is it possible that "gassy" would happen 8 hours into the day regardless of your nutrition? How did you feel after long rides and did you have any training days that long? I'm one for "eat off the land" and luckily can handle just about anything (but then again, my run pace isn't too intense). Is it possible that you're trying to get too much with Infinit on the bike? What if you switch your bike nutrition from fluid-based to food-based (and use grocery foods)? Can you put together 1500 calories of fig bars, paydays, cookies, and bananas (or maybe 1000 calories with 500 from fluids)? Does your GI track rebel on everyday eating? You're smart, you'll get it figured out. Thanks Mike. Yes, I have a sensitive GI system. This past IM training cycle the Infinit and Clif Block combo worked great. I felt fine after long training days. Mountains of Misery was a 7 1/2 day and I had zero issues. As far as 'live off the land', I can't do it. After an hour, my body does not like any sort of sports drink. I learned that through marathoning. The only sports drink I found that doesn't cause some sort of distress is Infinit. That is why I am so confused at this point. |
2009-07-21 9:49 AM in reply to: #2298381 |
Master 1254 Chesapeake, VA | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right LazyMarathoner - 2009-07-21 10:18 AM I'm also wondering if you'd ever tried the Immodium prior to the race. Because it affects how your intestine absorbs water it could be impacting your overall hydration levels and either lead to too much fluid retention or not enough, which could cause cramping. I'm no doctor so that's just a guess. Women are smart. That is the first thing my wife said to me last night. I've used Imodium before, but not during a race. Hmmmmm. Thanks for the input. Keep them coming! I do plan on calling the folks at Infinit later this week. |
2009-07-21 10:14 AM in reply to: #2295952 |
Champion 6962 Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right Did you practice your race nutrition at pace? I know, for me, it makes a big difference how the run pans out. I doubt it was the pretzels, so the immodium may be the culprit. Just a guess of course. |
2009-07-21 11:30 AM in reply to: #2295952 |
Champion 10471 Dallas, TX | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right I know for me, when I go longer distances... my stomach doesn't want as much or need as much as it did in training. At my HIM I had my nutrition all planned out, I couldn't eat all the food I had planned out... and I didn't. No issues. At my IM I had my nutrition all planned out. Around mile 80 on the bike the stomach started feeling questionable, so I backed off the nutrition. Worked fine. I even took in less gels on the run. For BOTH those races once I was done, I couldn't even eat a bite of food. After the IM it took me a good 10 hours before I could eat without wanting to vomit. Very weird stuff. I think for some people, in a race, their stomachs react differently than what they do in training. I almost wonder if your stomach would have been better off if you had backed off the nutrition on the run. |
|
2009-07-21 1:11 PM in reply to: #2295952 |
The Original 7834 Raleigh/Durham | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right I often have GI issues with running. I personally would be extremely leery to Immodium during a race- just my thoughts. Usually when I have GI issues with running I feel 100% better once I hit a porta potty and that itself seems to take care of my issues. I would probably take some Gas X before Immodium if I was gassy coming off the bike but I'm not sure if that would be a good thing to take during a race or not. I do know that a lot runners carry TUMS with them to help with being gassy and bloated and seems to work well with a lot of stomachs during racing. Might be worth trying next time? Just curious- did you use Immodium in your training at all? I used perpetuem for IM FL and never had issues with it during training. However on race day, once I got to the run I had major reflux and was burping a lot and my stomach didn't feel too good. But...I made sure to take in extra water at the aid stations for the first few miles and that seemed to do the trick. It was almost like I needed more water to break up all the protein. I'm not sure how long your TR were in training after a long bike. But given your stomach problems with the IM it may not be a bad idea to do a TR off your long bikes and see how your stomach holds up?? I think you're on the right track of getting it all figured out. Hopefully next year you will have it nailed down |
2009-07-21 2:02 PM in reply to: #2298573 |
Champion 5529 Nashville, TN | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right Marvarnett - 2009-07-21 11:14 AM Did you practice your race nutrition at pace? I know, for me, it makes a big difference how the run pans out. Tri Take Me Away and I were talking about IM racing and GI issues the other day (you were part of the topic). I think what Dan says is the culprit for most people. IMO, what happens is that most people train in low z2 and can their stomach can handle 1900 calories over 6.5 hours. But on race day that isn't what happens. You come out of T1 with a jacked up heartrate. It takes some time to get that down. Also, while you may have stayed in z2 for the ride, I am willing to bet you rode at a higher RPE and probably a higher HR than you did in training. Assuming you use a Garmin, go back and look at the data. I think where most people miss the boat is that they don't practice nutrition at race pace. And your Saturday easy z2 100 miler isn't race pace....that is just logging the miles. Do 60 of it at z3 and see how your body reacts. The other part is that your body responds differently on race day....adrenaline, stress, nerves all make you respond differently. I know when I have had a stressful day at work, I am more inclined to skip a meal due to a supressed appetited. The point is that the body responds differently to the stimuli on race day. I suggest you try a few more HIMs and see if you have any problems for 70.3 hours. You can also experiment more in those races since your whole season doesn't revolve around it. |
2009-07-21 4:00 PM in reply to: #2299272 |
Master 1254 Chesapeake, VA | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right ADollar79 - 2009-07-21 3:02 PM Marvarnett - 2009-07-21 11:14 AM Did you practice your race nutrition at pace? I know, for me, it makes a big difference how the run pans out. Tri Take Me Away and I were talking about IM racing and GI issues the other day (you were part of the topic). I think what Dan says is the culprit for most people. IMO, what happens is that most people train in low z2 and can their stomach can handle 1900 calories over 6.5 hours. Thanks for all the new responses. This might make sense Andrew and Dan, but I rode Mountains of Misery in May at race effort. That century ride was 7 1/2 hours with 10,000 feet of climbing. I never once felt off during the ride. However I did not do a transition run after the ride. Like you and Janel suggested I am going to experiment with some HIM training days and longer transition runs to figure things out. I am starting to lean towards Imodium being part of the problem. I was actually counting on Imodium being my salvation on race day, but stupid me never tried it in training. One of these days I will learn - nothing new on race day! |
2009-07-21 4:41 PM in reply to: #2299718 |
Expert 697 Atlanta, GA | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right I'm glad you posted this. I've been thinking a lot about race nutrition after signing up for CdA next year, and I have had some serious tummy issues in the past while racing, usually after T2. I was thinking of trying Infinit, and it's good to know that the Immodium could be a potential problem. |
2009-07-21 5:10 PM in reply to: #2295952 |
Expert 1207 Liberty Lake, WA | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right It is very hard to really practice IM race day nutrition. You might be able to get close thru doing some HIM or race pace training. But no one really knows what their body is going to do after 9, 10, or 15 hours of going non-stop until they have gone that long. I did IMCDA for the 5th time this year and finally feel like I had a race that went mostly right. After reading your account I have one qestion and two comments. Question - Are you sure it was a nutrition problem and not a pacing problem? You said "I executed the bike according to plan and never let my HR get too high". What was your plan? What are you calling a too high HR? How did you set these limits? Was your plan heart rate set too high to begin with? I do not know if this was your problem and I'm not saying that it was. However, these are some questions you should be asking yourself. You may deside that your plan was the right plan for you. If it was the right plan then we are talking about a nutrition problem and not a pacing problem. Comment 1 - Are you sure that you were drinking enough water on the bike to support a 300 cal/hour nutrition plan? I was pushing around 300 cals/hour and had to stop and pee 3 times on the bike. I know that there are people that can ride 112 miles without peeing and be ok but I'm not one of them. I know for me that bad things happen when I get a little dehydrated. I would rather error on the side of being a little overhydrated. (Before anyone starts talking about water intoxication I said a LITTLE overhydrated not super-saturated.) Comment 2 - Imodium scares me on race day. I carry Imodium on race day and have some extra in my SN bag. But, I really do not understand how it works. I pack it as part of my last resort plan. My attitude is that if I start taking Imodium then my day is over and I'm just trying to get to the finish without crapping myself. I just don't understand how it can shut down GI issues and still allow for calories to get absorbed. My guess, and it is only a guess, is that once you take Imodium then nothing gets absorbed and you start to bloat up. My guess is that you came off the bike a little dehydrated, due to this dehydration the unabsorbed calories in your system caused the gas issuse. If you had dropped your run pace a little and taken in some extra water the issue may have resolved itself. But the Imodium you took in T2 shut your system down causing the cramping. Everything you piled on top of the Imodium just sat in your GI since your stomach was shut down. Again, just my guess. |
|
2009-07-22 3:24 PM in reply to: #2295952 |
Elite 3658 Roswell, GA | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right I know a lot of folks have great success with Imodium, but I think they take it before the race. |
2009-07-23 11:02 AM in reply to: #2295952 |
Master 1472 | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right A quick Google search on Immodium: Loperamide works by acting on opioid receptors that are found in the muscle lining the walls of the intestines. By acting on these receptors, loperamide reduces the muscular contractions of the intestine (called peristalsis) that move food and faecal matter through the gut. This reduces the speed at which the gut contents are pushed through the intestines, allowing more time for water and electrolytes to be reabsorbed from the gut contents back into the body. This results in firmer stools that are passed less frequently. |
2009-07-28 3:13 PM in reply to: #2299896 |
Master 1254 Chesapeake, VA | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right T in Liberty Lake - 2009-07-21 6:10 PM the unabsorbed calories in your system caused the gas issuse. If you had dropped your run pace a little and taken in some extra water the issue may have resolved itself. But the Imodium you took in T2 shut your system down causing the cramping. Everything you piled on top of the Imodium just sat in your GI since your stomach was shut down. Again, just my guess. Thanks for the comments T. As always, you have come through! This very well could have been a large part of my issue. To answer your point on pacing, I don't wear a HR monitor so I can't give you exact numbers. I've always raced by RPE and think I know my body pretty well. So, I think I had my pacing where I wanted it, but to be honest I don't know for certain. With all of that being said, I am going to train and race with a HR monitor in 2010 to keep myself honest. I am also going to leave the Imodium at home! Thanks again - see you in 11 months! |
2009-07-28 3:42 PM in reply to: #2313386 |
Master 1932 Savannah, | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right 333 days! |
2009-07-28 3:59 PM in reply to: #2298465 |
Champion 5312 Calgary | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right captantony - 2009-07-21 8:46 AM McFuzz - 2009-07-21 9:06 AM Is it possible that "gassy" would happen 8 hours into the day regardless of your nutrition? How did you feel after long rides and did you have any training days that long? I'm one for "eat off the land" and luckily can handle just about anything (but then again, my run pace isn't too intense). Is it possible that you're trying to get too much with Infinit on the bike? What if you switch your bike nutrition from fluid-based to food-based (and use grocery foods)? Can you put together 1500 calories of fig bars, paydays, cookies, and bananas (or maybe 1000 calories with 500 from fluids)? Does your GI track rebel on everyday eating? You're smart, you'll get it figured out. Thanks Mike. Yes, I have a sensitive GI system. This past IM training cycle the Infinit and Clif Block combo worked great. I felt fine after long training days. Mountains of Misery was a 7 1/2 day and I had zero issues. As far as 'live off the land', I can't do it. After an hour, my body does not like any sort of sports drink. I learned that through marathoning. The only sports drink I found that doesn't cause some sort of distress is Infinit. That is why I am so confused at this point. Not super experienced but I got a sucky GI track. Cannot really tell too much from your logs but did you do any long bricks? My quick review did not find any. Personally, I can eat and drink whatever I want on the bike for up to 9 hours, at least, and have no gi issues. The second I start running is where the GI issues start. To me, my body reacts way different to a 5 hour bike ride then to a hour bike/hour run brick. I read it once and I have posted it more than once, do the triple brick, 40 km biking 10km running X 3 in one day. You will figure out what you can eat on the bike and still run. Personally, I figure I have to eat what I would concider not enough and stop the solid food fairly early into my bike so I have a couple hours to digest. I doubt you ruined your day in t2. I think, it was probably what you had in your belly after you finished the bike that gave you the problem, not forgetting your fuel when you started the run. Do the triple brick, seriously, you will figure it out in a hurry. |
|
2009-07-29 2:26 PM in reply to: #2295952 |
Expert 939 Newton, MA | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right How much water did you take in, if any, in addition to the infinit? How much sodium did you take in prerace and during the bike, not counting the ecaps? |
2009-07-29 2:58 PM in reply to: #2295952 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right II executed the bike according to plan and never let my HR get too high. I took in 5 bottles of Infinit at 300 cals per and 2 packages of Clif Blocks at 200 cals each. In total 6 1/2 hours on the bike and 1,900 calories. I did not pee on the bike, but did in T2. All in all, I felt like I was going to execute the day perfectly as I needed to run a 4 1/2 hour marathon for my goal of 12:xx finish. I got off the bike a little gassy, but nothing bad at all. In T2 I took one Imodium. I also took 3 E-caps at that time (which I've done in training). Here is where I might have made some mistakes that ruined my race. My original plan was to run with my Fuel Belt filled with Infinit and Clif Blocks. Not being of sound mind 8 hours into the day I decided to leave my Fuel Belt in T2. I thought the Clif blocks and water could get my through. However in my rush to get out of T2, I not only left my Fuel Belt behind, I also forgot my Clif Blocks. At that point my run nutrition plan was screwed so I was forced to live off the land - something that has not worked well for me in past. The first five miles of the run were fine and I was running right at my goal 9:30 pace. I drank some water and had a few pretzels. Somewhere between miles 5 and 6 I got gas pains like I've never felt before. I took one more Imodium, but that didn't help. The only thing that made me feel somewhat comfortable was walking a very slow pace. So that is how my day ended I walked slowly from Mile 6 on. I tried everything at the feed stations - coke, chicken broth, cookies. Nothing helped. Every time I tried jogging I had to stop. In the end I finished, but my marathon took over 6 hours. |
2009-07-29 3:41 PM in reply to: #2313521 |
Master 1254 Chesapeake, VA | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right BigDH - 2009-07-28 4:59 PM Not super experienced but I got a sucky GI track. Cannot really tell too much from your logs but did you do any long bricks? My quick review did not find any. Personally, I can eat and drink whatever I want on the bike for up to 9 hours, at least, and have no gi issues. The second I start running is where the GI issues start. To me, my body reacts way different to a 5 hour bike ride then to a hour bike/hour run brick. I read it once and I have posted it more than once, do the triple brick, 40 km biking 10km running X 3 in one day. You will figure out what you can eat on the bike and still run. Personally, I figure I have to eat what I would concider not enough and stop the solid food fairly early into my bike so I have a couple hours to digest. I doubt you ruined your day in t2. I think, it was probably what you had in your belly after you finished the bike that gave you the problem, not forgetting your fuel when you started the run. Do the triple brick, seriously, you will figure it out in a hurry. This time around I am most definetely going to do some longer transition runs. I didn't do anything over a couple of miles after a bike this time around. Hmmmm - 40k bike / 10 k run X 3. Sounds like a long but very useful day! Thanks! |
2009-07-29 3:52 PM in reply to: #2315683 |
Master 1254 Chesapeake, VA | Subject: RE: IM Nutrition - I'm not doing something right JorgeM - 2009-07-29 3:58 PM For nutrition I prefer to KISS it and think in terms of carbohydrates rather than calories because total kcal might sound enough but it might not be providing you with the source of energy your body needs for fuel (still 500 kcal x hr seems a lot to me). Why don't you shoot for around 60-75 gr of carbs. 1 bottle (around 20-24oz) of infinity x hour with 40 gr of carbs plus either 1 cliff gel or 6 blocks (25 hr of carbs) total 65 gr of CHO. try it on your next long session and see if it works, if your fitness is there and exercise at adequate intensity keeping proper pacing and you fade away towards the end or on the run then add a bit more for next time (5-10 gr of CHO) and try again. Great information here - thanks Jorge! Now I just need to digest all of the advice I've received here (pun intended)! Then, it's practice, practice, practice. |
|