The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice (Page 5)

I am certainly no coach. I am a coached athlete. I have stated before that one of the things about my coach which I respected and which drew me to working with him for almost 3 years now was the fact that he was and is an accomplished triathlete and 3x Kona qualifier. It mattered to me that he had gone through that experience and had put himself physically in the position to be that good. That was one of many reasons I felt confidant working with him. So results for me matter and that's just my opinion. WE ARE YOUR CUSTOMERS. We have the privelage of hiring or not hiring you based on our OWN criteria.

John, to call people stupid because they have a set of criteria they use to make a personal decision you don't agree with really reflects poorly on you. I agree with Breck. it would certainly not be the only aspect I would look at, but it would be one of them. So I suppose that makes me stupid to.

Edited by bryancd 2009-06-19 7:02 PM

I've been reading this thread on and off throughout the day and just wanted to ask something. Now I am not trying to be a jerk at all, I am curious. I was just thinking back to all of my coaches and people in my past that I had learned from. Breckview, I believe from reading most of your posts that you are from a swimming background. I am also. My experience with my swim coaches has always been that I was faster than they ever were. Let me explain, I was a butterflier. My USS coach swam distance for Texas. He by his own admission couldn't break 1:00 in the 100 fly. Yet he was able to coach me to 2 sectional wins and very low 50 second fly times. In your case are you saying you just would not listen to anyone slower than you? Or possibly that you would just look more into their coaching history if they had any and decide based on that criteria? Again not trying to be an a@@ just wondering. As for me I do tend to look at logs and race reports, but if I think something is worth trying I will usually try it.  I actually took up the 2 beat kick from the youtube link tjfry put up a while back.  I didn't look at his logs, but his vid spoke for itself, however if anyone else put it up that didn't swim like a rock I would have still tried it. 

True. Although it's a subtle thing, I didn't call breck stupid, I said it was a stupid opinion.

It just irks me that someone would look at one instance in a life of athletics and dismiss everything that I've done because I did one race massively undertrained because I was upholding a promise.

ah well. Live and learn.

John

you don't have to look at TJs logs to verify what he says makes sense.  He swam at Clemson, was a pro triathlete, and lead the swim at Ironman World Championships.  Don't need a log for that.  When I have a swim question, hes the first person I go to, and I don't think I've looked at his logs or inquired about his workouts once. 

I cant speak for Break, but my guess is in a world of unknowns, you have to go off something.  Maybe that something is a lie, wrong, embellished or whatever.  But on the internet, you need some filter, something that says, "ok, this makes some sense, but whos saying it."  If Breakview swam at Standford and John was the coach, I dont think Break would need to see times before he listened to him.  The fact that he is coaching a the best swim college pretty much ever is good enough. 

People need to pass some sort of filter, what that is for Breakview is up to him and I have more respect for him for having filters that just listening to whoever.  Thats probably why hes a good athlete.  Its probably why you had the ability to swim for Texas.  I highly doubt you listened to every bit of advice you got without first filtering out the BS with some sort of criteria.

What that criteria is is up to each individual.  And yes, going on times/results is going to result in not listening to people who otherwise know what they are talking about, but it is also going to eliminate taking advice from people who dont.   Breakview never ONCE said people with "slow" times dont know what they're talking about.  never.  The fact that he has a process to decide who to listen to is smart.  very smart.

2. There should be more emphasis to do what's fun based on lots of factors (such as weather) as opposed to following strict instructions that if violated results in a negative feeling. If the training isn't fun, long-term participation is difficult or impossible.



#2 above doesn't get enough emphasis. It's from breckview.

Edited by monkeyboy64 2009-06-20 5:17 AM

I haven't read every post in this thread, but I've read most of them.  IMHO, this thread started as a discussion about novices overcomplicating things, but I feel most of the discussion has been more applicable to a triathlete with a little more experience who wants to get faster.

I think things really should be kept pretty simple for a complete beginner, because their focus should be to build a base and finish their first race healthy so it's a fun experience and they keep coming back for more.  This can be accomplished with a very simple training program, some direction on how to execute it, and some basic nutritional information.

Things seem to get complicated once a person is no longer a novice, they have a good solid base, and they want to get faster.  It sounds like that's the time to start applying some of the more advanced methodologies.

Before I get slaughtered, I want to reiterate that this is just my opinion.

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Edited by PennState 2009-06-20 7:19 AM

It's just a business decision, don't take it personally or as a poor reflection on you. Sometimes I meet with a prospective client that doesn't end up hiring me and if I learn their reasoning, I file that away for the future and learn from it.

Fred, you're right, we have gone off track, although for a beginner some of this discussion in regards to coaching and how to evaluate what matters to an athlete in a coach has some merit and value.

see, that is not the problem; I think it is wise to have a set criteria to filter the sort of information you are looking for. However the reason why I quoted him in that particular post is because that particular criteria to me makes no sense. I can give many MANY examples in which if you discard advice of certain people based on appearances or performance you will be discarding some of the best advice around. My contention is simple; listen to the content of the advice provided. If someone present advice/opinions based on research/literature citing sources and sharing experiences I think that is worth listening to. At the very least you can listen to the advice, do further research from the sources provided and in the end you can come up to your own conclusion and agree, disagree or half agree with the original advice.

In terms of choosing coaches based on performance, yes that's for the customer to decide. Again my contention is that having that criteria might eliminate great candidates. more than a few of the best coaches around have never done an IM, hell some have never done a tri! All I am saying is to not be so quick to discard people's advice or credentials based on appearances or set criterias, listen to what a person has to say, the content of his/her message and then make a choice to take the advice or discard it. 

At least I am lucky to be sort of fast to pass breck's smell test, phew!  

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Edited by PennState 2009-06-20 7:27 AM

Penn-

you are right on all counts. I offer my apologies to all that read it differently than I meant it, and I'll PM Breck.

ETA: It's amazing how much things appear a little differently after a good nights sleep and a big breakfast.

John

Edited by tkd.teacher 2009-06-20 10:46 AM

First off, I appreciate the respect you intended with your questions.

In terms of swimming, I wouldn't hire a coach (or take advice from someone) unless they had some level of competitive background preferably college level. They certainly wouldn't have to be faster than me currently (and I don't think I ever said I'd require that regarding any tri related advice). I would not require an advisor in any discipline to maintain their peak fitness level if they prefer coaching instead of training/racing. But I would require them to do some level of tri related training activity as I believe that those who truly love the training aspect of this sport would never quit all of s/b/r unless injury/age required it.


In terms of tjfry, I don't remember looking at his logs/races either. I remember him stating in a post that he made Kona, not in a bragging way but in a way that I recall was pertinent to the conversation although I can't remember what that conversation was. That got my atttention and I put a priority on reading his posts closely (sorry, that's what I do). IMO, he has the skill of putting complex swimming concepts into simple examples that I can visualize easily. He's not the only one here qualified and who can do that. He's just one I've chosen to consider. I actually tried out the two-beat kick from watching his video. I was previously aware of it but until I saw him doing it I hadn't seriously considered using it myself. I would not have seriously tried it if a 1:50/100y swimmer advised it. I'm sorry but that's just how I choose to operate. I prefer to copy very successful people and because my stroke is relatively sound (2:33 for a comfortable 200y at the end of yesterday's workout), I'm very slow to change much of my technique.

That, and another technique change I got from his posts are the two best pieces of advice I've received since taking up tri training again two years ago. I experienced an instant increase is speed per effort and most importantly I realized that one of the reasons I hated swimming was that I'm so hypoxic due to our altitude (9600'). By quieting my kick that hypoxia was greatly reduced instantly.

I'm not real sure why so much concern on BT about how I personally choose advisors. I'm not advocating that anybody else do as I do. I'm blessed with lots of amazing contacts in business and so I'm used to having access to the best advisors that exist in the world. EG. If I wanted advice on step aerobics, I'd call one of my clients who owns the patent on that device and who has devoted his professional life to that type of exercise routine. I'm sure there are thousands of great advisors for step aerobics but I don't want to discover them, sorry. (PLEASE don't attack step aerobics... It was just an example.)

Because of that I generally ignore advice from those outside my circle. I'm not saying that great advice doesn't exist elsewhere. IMO, it's just mixed with a bunch of noise that I'm not willing to sort out. That's just not how I personally operate. IMO, it's not stupid or shortsighted. It's just my preference.

When I (stupidly) mentioned the idea of having USAT ratings under a forum poster's picture I put about ten seconds of thought into the idea. I meant that the rating could be optionally displayed but didn't write that (10sec thought and all). I didn't intend the idea to silence BEGINNERTRIATHLETES considering directly above that idea I tried to say that all opinions should be encouraged in these forums. I meant it more in the way Scoobysdad stated that he's received valuable advice from people who are slightly faster than him. It could be used by a complete newbie to get advice from people a little more experienced than them. As I said, I don't really want advice from top male pros as I have zero interest in "Training like the pros!"

In terms of the 2:30 half mary PR. tkd was obviously was trying to set me up and I knew it. I knew he had some fast times from his past from reading his posts. IMO, that "PR" is only that slow because he never seriously trained/ran that distance back then. IMO, he was trying to demonstrate that if I limited my consideration to only those with fast half mary PRs, I'd be misled and therefore miss out on his advice, which is true. But while I realize that advisors often believe their methods are greatly superior and deserve to be considered, I simply don't want to invest the time to do so (sorry, my choice). FWIW, I've already chosen the coach I'm eventually going to hire once I plateau from self-coaching. He is much faster than me and has been to Kona many times, which is my goal. He's a perfect fit for me for many other reasons as well.

BTW, I have no hard feelings against any BTers due to anything said in this thread. But I'd prefer that my words be considered as I wrote them without further assumptions about what I believe. I choose my words very carefully.

Edited by breckview 2009-06-20 10:49 AM

That is your opinion and that's great (your choice). As I've said, I've done so much testing of "research" in my field, I'm very skeptical of "research/literature" type information and therefore it doesn't mean much to me. Give me a set of assumptions, inputs, and outputs, and I can use them to prove just about anything on either side of an argument.

I prefer common sense, real-world experience, and I frankly don't even care all that much. Fun is my most important training criteria. (my choice).


No thank you (my choice). From what I understand, you alter your client's training based on their available time commitment. I do the same thing with my pursuit of triathon training information. I'd much rather just go for a fun bike ride than do any of what you propose above (my choice).


Who? Not trying to be a smart alec, I'm just curious.

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The social psychology of these posts is truly fascinating, just a random thought.

As to the immediately above post ^^^^^, it's fascinating isn't it?   Hopefully since this thread was directed at newbies they don't get put off by all the fluff and ego.

At any rate, here's my take, for what it's worth or not.   I agree with the OP in general.   And I have read some VERY bad advice here.  

BUT, as to steps 1-4 above, this is along the lones of the very advice I see the huge majority of the time here, so I disagree that this information is not available or offered here.  In essence, start out with consistency without worrying about pace, increase volume as you get more fitness, once you have the "cake" /base add the "icing" speedwork, and then learn to tweak your season and try some periodization (actually, I think periodiization can come earlier, but that's irrelevant)

Thing of it is, this is Beginner Triathlete, and like in life people need to be circumspect in what advice they follow and what advice they don't follow (along the lines of what free advice is worth).  Does that require an analysis of results?  Perhaps.  I am certainly going to listen to bryan/daremo/breck/tjfry/johnnykay before I am going to listen to someone preparing for their first sprint.  But I am also going to read what rogillio has to say (not that I would follow all of it cuz he's got some crazy ideas), but he does have extensive experience, some of which might be helpful.   So I wouldn't limit my consideration
of advice only from the fasties.
 
And what works for bryan may not work for me.  Like everything, it's a learning process.  Even if I hire a coach and they give me a fully personalized plan,it may not work.  

I also disagree that people should restrict themselves from posting their experience just because they have not achieved a certain level.  I think that the fast people can learn stuff from the slow people as well.   As to whether advice is "bad," well no one thinks their own advice is bad, and, well, it's the internet.   I am all for people posting their advice, good and bad.  Trust me, bad advice gets called out as such 90% of the time, and very clearly so.  

Ultimately, the point that training is not all that complex is the right one that everyone, not just  newbies, should remember (for the huga majority of us, those that are gunning for Kona may benefit from a more complex training approach.  Me?  whatever, just ride) 

May be one of the few, but it seems to me it's happening with more frequency lately 

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Ooh crap I picked his program to follow for IM this fall. I can't afford a coach so I thought this his program would be the next best thing. Hopefully it will work out for me.

 

Mark Allen, which is a great athlete but clearly lacks the knowledge when it comes to coaching no matter what masses want to believe

Ha ha! No worries. He has coached more Ironman Hawaii Champions and Qualifers than anyone. I think you are in good hands.....no matter what the masses want to believe!

Good luck in your IM

LOL, touche!

I just ordered a plan for myself; after I am done training with it I can't wait to get to KQ and battle Macca and Crowie!!!

I can't state it 100% convinced but Brett Sutton and his athletes have stated on some threads @ team TBB forum that he has never done a tri, nermind an IM. In an article (can't remember if it was tri magazine or interview on ST) he mentioned something along the lines of not having the ability/resistance to run. Still he has delivered Tri champions at different distances and formats including Olympic medals, his methods can be highly debated and I certainly don't agree with all his views, but I am a fan of his because he is able to extract the best of each individual by using different approaches for each person. He understands each person is different and adjust his views accordingly. That to me is the pure art of coaching