The State of Triathlon Training - Special note to the Novice (Page 4)

That's very nice to hear. I've also improved my swimming technique in two areas by listening to tjfry. I think those two technique changes have sped me up more than all my training yards.

Watch out there Scoobysdad. You're ALMOST saying that you'd find some value in seeing a forum poster's USAT rating under their avatar when considering their forum post advice. You don't want to go down that road...

FWIW, I greatly agree with you. I never said that rating had to be any super high level for an individual to more closely consider the advice. I don't think I'd get a lot of value from knowing how the best male pros train or what they advise. I also know that I haven't yet received any value (in terms of training/racing advice) from newbies.

Hijack: I agree but just note that for me, being newer to endurance sports, guaging pace/speed/power/time against my RPE to learn what it feels like to run say a 9 minute pace vs. an 8 minute pace and understand how long I can keep that up.  ALso, although speed devices are not necessary very accurate I find them very helpful for intervals. 

This post made me happy. Cusetri started off pretty aggressive, took some hits, clarified his point (superbly), then in the end made nice with everyone. Good stuff!

Quick philosophical opinion on training: as I (we) age, life gets more and more complicated. Technology and "progresses" that are designed to make us more efficient, make things easier, or make us more happy often overly complicate our lives and make us nurotic and crazy. Training is certainly complicated, and trial and error is all part of it. While we all want to get faster, get better, get the most out of every minute of training, I think it's necessary that we keep in mind that triathlon is fun, and we're out there for recreation - to escape the complexity of life. Anyway, this certainly isn't the most original post, but I think I (we) need a reminder!

Now, enough of this BS - let me get back to my logs, so I can re-calculate the heart rate to increase my VO2 max and formulate the most efficient bike/run brick to increase it!

Since you quoted me I assume when you say "same line of reasoning..." that you're saying the same reasoning as I use. But my posts clearly didn't say any such thing nor do I assume any such thing.

Again, I've been in competitive athletics for over 40 years. In business, I've taught thousands of high level business people complex financial strategies. I know a little about training, performance, learning, teaching, and coaching. I singled out one fast athlete that I listen to and you nor anybody else has any idea what all the reasons are behind why I choose to listen to him (other than the one reason which is his track record of training/racing success).


IMO, your constant public lack of respect for your coaching colleagues is not a very good long-term business strategy.

Jorge, I would rather sit down with JohnnyKay and a BOTTLE of Jack Daniels and talk crap about Rick, but what do I know, I can't even spell.

What folks are banging their heads up against here is what philosophers call the "Learner's Paradox", and (unlike so many philosophical problems...) it is a real-life issue, as we are seeing.  Briefly: If you already know something, then you can identify the experts, but you don't need them. If you don't already know that something, then it is dam* hard to figure out who does.

The easy answer to how to proceed is "by their fruits ye shall know them", but of course there are many fruits, many of which have been identified (personal success, success of their pupils, consistency of their advice with others who are successful, internal coherence of their advice), and it is not always easy to tell the good fruit from the rotten fruit.

I personally find it useful to hear what others do, regardless of that person's level of experience. It doesn't mean I'm going to do what they do -- it's just another data point.

Finally, is there really that much one-size-fits-all advice out there?  Perhaps I'm just blissfully ignorant of it, but a lot of what I read on this forum, as well as in the literature (I mostly read academic-type stuff, and maybe that's the issue), tends to emphasize general principles rather than one-size-fits-all advice.

Breckview:  agreed, 50% of what is published is crap.  Doesn't mean one can't learn to tell the difference, as your own work shows.

Hee, hee, I'll bring beer and we can all talk about Rick, myself and all 

Yes, we'll figure out the State of Triathlon Training and other world issues of import. 

There are a number of threads in which I qualify the comments made with a quick peek at race times or training logs. I usually do this when the advice is absolute such as 'the only way to.." or "that is a complete waste of time". So I think in a medium(internet) in which you can pretend to be anything a little truth serum helps me decide.

Having said that I don't necessarily disount the info. I have learned a number of things from greener athletes as they have a fresh perspective.

The flip side to this, and I might be alone here, is that I avoid posting in topics in which I think newbies may be able to give better advice. I did my first race a very long time ago, so when someone asks about dirt on your feet and wearing shoes, that's something I don't think about anymore, so I'm probably not the best person to respond. 'I don't think about it' doesn't help the conversation.

If, however someone suggests some outlandish technique in the pool and they are crankin' out 2:15 per hundred, well... there's a good chance I won't be changing my stroke.

I quoted that post because tkd directly asked you if his race results would influence in your desicion to listen to his advice or not and you replied yes. That's the point I used for my post which simple is: many athletes equate race performance = good coach or expertise in a particular subject and that to me doesn't make much sense. It is not particularly about you but about a growing perception in our sport. Of course I don't care to change your belief (whether you indeed share that or not) but I do debate the reasoning behind it. As I mentioned on my OP there are many cases in which great coaches level of knowledge, expertise and success as coaches is unquestionable yet if one was to follow the reasoning about poor race performances = someone not worth to listen, then many of us would miss the wealth of information/experience some of this coaches have to share.

OTOH there are great athletes with amazing performances that now are coaches that personally I don't think have the expertise and knowldge to do so. There are more than current examples of this, in fact there are some popular coaches which advice is taken as gospel and both the results of their athletes and expertise is not be the best (but that's another topic altogether).

I don't know if we agree or disagree and I am not picking on you but as I said; I am debating the reasoning mentioned above. You said: " I'd love to see one's USAT rating under their avatar so that when considering advice, people know what level of athlete from which its coming. I know that one's ability isn't always the best measure of their ability to advise but it's at least something that has some validity." and while you acknowledge it might not be the best way to sift among good or bad advice still as I said in my OP I think would be a poor metric because it could discount or diminish the opinion of certain individuals whose advice might be far much better than others just because they happen to be avg or below avg athletes in terms of performance.

It is not disrespect but I don't sugarcoat my opinions when I believe someone is full of it and just because someone calls him/herself coach doesn't make us colleagues. In other professions you have to go at lenghts of education, time, networking, etc to be earn the title. I mean I won't be able to call myself a CFA until I pass all 3 levels and earn my certification no? In coaching not so much, the USAT L1 cert. is a basic introduction to endurance sports and depending on the speakers you can get great or not so great info. yet by paying the fee and passing as simple test you are in. Also there are those who nowadays as long as they finish a HIM or IM sort of fast and have a copy of the TTB or going long they have punched their ticket, no need for any cert. they clearly know enough already and have the expertise to coach. (at least in their minds)

Furtmermore, as you alluded in some of your posts you are skeptical by nature (same as I) and I want to assume you aren't affraid to point out when someone in your filed is talking bs. Do I care what others might think about me speaking up my mind? nope, not at all, that's the way I am. In fact I think it is more disrespectful to charge lots for stuff you might or minot not know, at least it is disrespectufl to the athlete. We all coaches had to start somewhere, learn the basics stuff, work the line, made lots of mistakes, etc. I think the difference is how some of us chose to start; instead on jumping right away into charging like a Joe Filliol or Brett Sutton some of us did sort of pro bono tri coaching, helped friends, find mentors and grew up from there. still thanks for the advice...

I'll respectfully disagree.  Maybe it isn't a revelation, but it can be helpful to a new triathlete (such as myself) to find out that more experienced triathletes don't think much about it.  It allows me to put it in the 'OK, so eventually maybe this is no big deal' category.

Rarely have I seen such condescenion towards coaches that are so much more successful. Your similar comments towards Carmichael, Gordo, etc are not a strong reflexion on your business. You may favor other training methods than those senior to you in the industry, but the demeaning tone doesn't add to your credibility. There's a lot of good coaches out there (many on BT that use you would put you on that list) which proves that there's more than one way to skin a cat.
Produce some of your own superstars, then contrast your teachings with that of the big names.

Uh-oh.....

Without opining on this, I do agreee that it is wrong to challenge one training methodology as being superior to another and to say that any coach that uses a different methodology is all wrong, especially when they have a lot of credibility. I have learned from non other than Jorge about methods different from how I am coached and although I don't use them, I can see their efficacy. That should be a two way street, I think we can all agree.

hmmmm... interesting. I'll remember that next time. Thanks.

I'll get on that

I  have no problem coaches presenting their own approach and using that method to coach their athletes, that's after all their way to interpret what they perceive is the best way to approach it. However that's much more differet than presenting such opionions as the way to do things  (one size fits all) or worse presents opinions as evidence as to why a method is better than another one when the available research suggests otherwise. The worst is to coin terms, twist concepts or incorreclty present info in order to differentiate their method creating confusion and misinformation.

It had never been about whether someone coaches one way or another, it is about presenting one's ideas and opinions as that, ideas and/or opinions. I admire those coaches who first care to present all the available research on a particular topic, then to present their interpretation of said research and finally present their way as to what they perceive is the best way for them to make use of that information. That to me is a whole lot different than present one's personal beliefs as conclusive evidence without presenting evidence to back that up. There are many coaches that I agree/disagree with and admire because regardless of how they interprent the knowdlge/experience they posses, they understand what they need to do to help their athletes accomplish their goals. In other words when you ask them why they choose certain method without hesistantion they can cite you research, they can cite you sources, they can cite you experience and putting all the package together it is easy to see the why they do.  

There are MANY great coaches (not to mention succesful than some of the popular ones) out there that I bet you or many has never heard of. why? because they are no interested in selling books, they don't care for anything but the performance of their athletes. Some don't even care to coach at the highest level, they are happy developing younger athletes, yet having the opportunity to learn from them can provide you with both evidence based and experience which some of the famous coaches couldn't offer.

I don't hide my critics of some of the opinions from some of the popular coaches; in fact I've have email them directly (or post on their blogs) more than once asking questions to undertand their opinions; more often than not I've been ignored. I don't think questionning someone's opinion in a quest to learn is a bad thin do you? In fact Alan Couzens, Gordo associate is the perfect example of the kind of coach I personally admire. I don't always agree with his interpretation of research or methods but he does present it to the the reader, he clearly defines why he believes certain things and let the reader come to their own conclusion given the information. Of of my good coaches friends is a CTS coach; he is a great coach and his athletes usually perform very well at different levels. We don't always see eye to eye but he is so experienced and knowledgeable he can clearly define why his based his methods in x or y way.

You are free to put these coaches on a pedestal and follow what they suggest as gospel; I am not like that. If I think there is something that doesn't make sense I want to know why. If something I believe is wrong I want to learn and understand why. Shaking your credentials on my face do little to impress me, but if you are able to convey to me the why of your reasoning that to me is is worth a lot. You might believe this is condescending or disrespectul, and that's your opinion, I don't see it that way. You might think what I posted about MA is wrong and maybe I am, but trust me I am not the only one. Many others have openly critic some of the misformation in his approach and openly debated with him.

I am not interested in re-inventing the wheel, there are or have been many way smarter sport physiologists and  experienced/knowledgeable coaches who have done a lot of the leg work already laying down the foundation for endurance training. There is no reason for me to promote my "teachings", most of what I post can easily found in a sport physiology textbook. I am not seeking to coin terms or invent new traiing methods to make sound my approach more marketable or appealing. I simple present/debate what I've learn so far and continue to strive to learn more. I might eventually jump to coach full time or not I don't know yet. I might eventually jump to try to coach more elite athletes or maybe not, maybe some day I can write a book  who knows. For now I am rather happy with my development; it is been great learning experience so far and I hope to keep on learning much more because I have a long way to go. Still, that won't stop me to question those 'succesful' senior coaches if I think it is appropiate, that way I will continue to learn and progress.

Well said Jorge.....but I do think this:
"..Mark Allen, which is a great athlete but clearly lacks the knowledge when it comes to coaching no matter what masses want to believe."
is a statement of what you feel is fact when it clearly is not, it's an opinion. As such, since you don't really support it, it sounds very arrogant considering he's been doing the sport almost as long as you have been alive.

training is so simple.

I did not reply "yes". I replied, "I don't know".



I do know that misrepresentation is part of internet forums but this thread is the first I've experienced it on BT.


No I actually do not "point out" anything negative concerning the ideas or qualifications of other specific people in my field. I have strong opinions but I also respect the opinions of others in my field. And I know that in most cases there are multiple paths to success.

Misrepresentation? this is what I quoted on my OP (I bolded part of his Q and part of your A) :



That's what I read and interpret in a such a way as race performance would validate or not someone's advice regarding endurance training hence my post. If I misunderstood your response or missed some key info then I apologize...

you are right; while there have been many vocal critics (many with greater knowledge and experience and MA, you and I) about the way MA has presented this ideas; that is misusing scientific/training concepts on some of the work he has preseneted. If I could I would re-phrase my OP because re-reading I did a poor job expressing what I really wanted to convey. I didn't mean to imply he is not a good coach (that I don't have close experience to have an opinion) which is what one would assume on my OP and I can see why it came across the wrong way.

I should have specified as to while he was a great athlete that doesn't necessarely make him automatically a great and knowledgeable coach. I think it would be better to present his approach as personal opinions which given his experience I think adds a lot  of value onto the way he approaches his coaching and leave out some of the concepts he seems to lack in depth understanding on some of what articles he has presented on websites, magazines etc. This is not my oipinion but there have been many threads online (again debated by physiologist and coaches) about the specific misinformation on the content of such articles (even some on the USAT coaching forum). Anyway, as I said you are correct, thanks for keeping me honest

My answer to the above remains yes. Sorry but I would not take any running advice from anyone whose 1/2 mary PR is 2:30. I get to choose my advisors.

Edited by breckview 2009-06-19 5:11 PM

No offense, but that's just stupid. Actually, I don't care if you do take offense, as that is stupid. And shortsighted.

But, I had a horrible time and thus have a horrible PR in that one race, so I guess you won't have to listen to my advice until after next years race. Maybe.

John