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2009-10-05 9:38 AM

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Subject: Can you lose fitness during a taper?

Folks,

I followed a Dooley Marathon plan for my marathon yesterday. I really liked the plan it was more miles than I was used to and it had speed and hill repeats that I think really helped. The training went well and I got much faster (faster is a relative term). My longest run was 23 miles and was on Sept 13 (3 weeks prior to the race). I did this run in 4:03 averaged just under 11 minute miles. The last 3 miles were the fastest ones. My average HR was 133. I really felt great and very little soreness the next day.

Fast forward to yesterday. Wineglass Marathon (course is pretty flat and fast). 
Started out with a HR around 150. Slowed the pace to get the HR under control. I was down to 11:30 minute miles and HR between 140 and 145. This is a higher HR than typical for my long training runs, but I thought it would calm down after a mile or so. I was able to stay around 140, but the pace was still much slower than normal. At about mile 19 I started to feel the cramps starting so I walked a little and ran when I could. By mile 21 I was walking a minute and running a minute and cramping in the calves and hamstrings. I ended up finishing in 5:21 and am extremely sore today (quads mostly).

I was a bit surprised at the marathon results because my 23 mile training run went well. As a side note my previous long runs all went well and got better every week. I am thinking that the 3 week taper was a bit long for me. Any ideas of what else can cause such a dramatic decrease in performance?

Kevin
        



2009-10-05 9:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
I'm not familiar with this training program.  You were still running during taper, right?
2009-10-05 9:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
Can't really "lose" a lot unless you are doing absolutely nothing.  But I'd have to see the plan to understand the principles and training behind it.

If your HR was elevated at a slower pace, chances are you are probably battling some sort of illness like a cold or flu.
2009-10-05 9:58 AM
in reply to: #2442873

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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?

I have read, and personally observed, that HR during a race does not correlate to HR in training; you tend towards a higher HR for the same pace, due to adrenaline and the thrill of racing.  That doesn't mean HR is worthless, it just means we need to figure out what the numbers tell us and why.

Another thing to consider is that three weeks might be too long, and that you might have cut too much mileage.  While I don't think you lost fitness per se, I think you might have degraded your ability to perform at peak.  Peaking for a race is tricky business, and elites don't always get it right, so chances are we aren't either.

2009-10-05 11:28 AM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
MY three-year taper while I was in my doctoral program in UCLA really affected my fitness.

2009-10-05 11:32 AM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
Here are the weeks from peak to marathon. I extended the long runs by 3 miles because I know I respond better to longer training runs. The max was 23 miles on week 13 3 weeks prior to the marathon. Daremo brings up a good point about coming down with something. I have felt fine and continue to feel fine no cold or flu like symptoms.


                           M          T                 W            T               F         S              S          weekly

11Rest2 miles GP
4x2 miles T (2:00)
3 miles GP
3 miles
6x100 S
90-minute run,
including 8:00–10:00 TUT
Rest4 miles18 miles45–51 miles
12Rest2 miles GP
4x2 miles T (2:00)
3 miles GP
3 miles
6x100 S
90-minute run,
including 8:00–10:00 TUT
Rest4 miles19 miles45–51 miles
13Rest3x1 mile C
3x800 SI
3 miles
6x100 S
75-minute run,
including 6:00–8:00 TUT
Rest4 miles20 miles46 miles
14Rest3x1 mile C
3x 800 SI
3 miles
6x100 S
75-minute run,
including 6:00–8:00 TUT
Rest4 miles13 miles45 miles
15Rest2 miles GP
4 miles T
3 miles
6x100 S
1-hour run,
including 6x400 SI
RestRest1-hour run27–29 miles
16Rest4x400 SIRest3 miles
6x100 S
Rest2-mile jogMarathon

Kevin


2009-10-05 11:33 AM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
Can you lose fitness during a taper? >>> yes you can. I don't like the 3 week general taper many plans/coaches suggest in particular since the way it was created (or became popular) and because we all have different taper needs. Though IMO that's not the reason you experienced trouble during the race. I would guess it was more with pacing and fitness. Pacing with HR can be very tricky specially during a race...
2009-10-05 11:51 AM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
How did the WEATHER compare between your prior long run and your race? I know my pace can slow quite a bit in heat & humidity.
2009-10-05 12:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
Use this as a learning experience.  In fact, I think it's wise to use your training to pay attention to stuff like how you feel after recovery weeks, after days off, when you seem to feel your best, etc.  3 week taper would be too much for me.  I do better on shorter stuff b/c I feel flat fast.  I would never take a day off before a race simply b/c i've learned in training i always feel crappy after a full day off.  Some people that is the perfect thing to do.   All very individual.
2009-10-05 12:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
Many good points and I agree that I do not did not have the fitness to maintain 140 - 150 BPM for 5 hours.

The weather was almost idea. It was a little cold 42 at the start, but warmed to about 60. Cloudy with a few sprinkles along the way. I do my long runs in the AM so race conditions were not terribly different than training.  

What should I have done? I knew out of the chute my HR was to high and not coming down even as the pace slowed. Should I have walked until I got it under control? I did not feel like my HR was as high as it was.

Kevin 
      
2009-10-05 1:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
JorgeM - 2009-10-05 11:33 AM Can you lose fitness during a taper? >>> yes you can. I don't like the 3 week general taper many plans/coaches suggest in particular since the way it was created (or became popular) and because we all have different taper needs.....


I agree--I never use a 3 week taper for anything, just because I know from previous experiences that it's too long for me.  I do a 2 week taper--first week i cut down volume by 1/4-1/2, then the second week by 1/2-3/4.  Any longer of a taper than that and I am useless on race day!


2009-10-05 1:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
I do think you will lose some fitness (minimal).  However, that will be trumped by the rest/recovery/repair your body goes through during the taper.

That's my 0.02, but I have no scientific data at hand to support my claims.
2009-10-05 1:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
chevy57 - 2009-10-05 1:33 PM Many good points and I agree that I do not did not have the fitness to maintain 140 - 150 BPM for 5 hours.

The weather was almost idea. It was a little cold 42 at the start, but warmed to about 60. Cloudy with a few sprinkles along the way. I do my long runs in the AM so race conditions were not terribly different than training.  

What should I have done? I knew out of the chute my HR was to high and not coming down even as the pace slowed. Should I have walked until I got it under control? I did not feel like my HR was as high as it was.

Kevin 
      

So you stated that your RPE was fine compared to your HR.  If everything felt ok I personally would have ignored the HRM.  This is the reason I don't race with a HRM. 
2009-10-05 2:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
Last year for IM I did 3 week taper and this year 10 day taper. I felt much better going in with a shorter taper and I did a 16 mile run 10 days before IM. I do think I lost fitness last year during my taper....not this year.
2009-10-05 4:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
Ok

I am thinking of skipping a taper all together. Why wouldn't you keep building to the marathon? I can't help but think if the marathon would have been at the same place in the training cycle as my longest run my post would have said "I just shaved 50 minutes off my previous marathon PR". It doesn't make sense to me that I could perform my longest run at my fastest pace while cranking out 54 miles a week then fall flat on my face after 3 weeks of reduced volume. Why wouldn't I modify the plan so that I reduced the volume after the longest run and did the marathon the next week?

Kevin 
2009-10-05 5:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?

With the relatively limited information, we can only make guesses. 

Generally, taper gives you enough time to repair any microtears in the muscles and fully replenish the glycogen stores in your legs.  If your last long run felt easy, then you probably didn't need a full 3 weeks of taper.  But saying that, the training loss over the taper plan you listed should be very minimal.

I also don't think it was a problem caused by taper.

It's possible that it was a nutrition issue.  Had you been training at a similar time to the race?  Was your nutrition intake before and during the race the same on your long runs?

My guess though is that in the excitement of the race you simply pushed yourself too hard in the first couple of miles, and then your body never recovered from that initial over-exertion.


2009-10-05 5:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
mrcurtain - 2009-10-05 6:37 PM
With the relatively limited information, we can only make guesses. 

Generally, taper gives you enough time to repair any microtears in the muscles and fully replenish the glycogen stores in your legs.  If your last long run felt easy, then you probably didn't need a full 3 weeks of taper.  But saying that, the training loss over the taper plan you listed should be very minimal.

I also don't think it was a problem caused by taper.

It's possible that it was a nutrition issue.  Had you been training at a similar time to the race?  Was your nutrition intake before and during the race the same on your long runs?

My guess though is that in the excitement of the race you simply pushed yourself too hard in the first couple of miles, and then your body never recovered from that initial over-exertion.



x2. what are your splits like ?
I've done this... more than once. it's easy to get caught up in the excitment and run at too fast a pace for the first 10-15 miles... and then pay for it in the last 10-15.
2009-10-05 6:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
chevy57 - 2009-10-05 4:21 PM Ok

I am thinking of skipping a taper all together. Why wouldn't you keep building to the marathon? I can't help but think if the marathon would have been at the same place in the training cycle as my longest run my post would have said "I just shaved 50 minutes off my previous marathon PR". It doesn't make sense to me that I could perform my longest run at my fastest pace while cranking out 54 miles a week then fall flat on my face after 3 weeks of reduced volume. Why wouldn't I modify the plan so that I reduced the volume after the longest run and did the marathon the next week?

Kevin 
If you want to achieve peak performance you do have to taper before your main event. 
I wrote this on another post before:

Tapering is nothing more than reducing training load enough to allow your body to recover while doing enough to sustain the maximum amount of gained fitness. Every time you train you get fitter but you also can get proportionally more fatigue. Think it like this, every time you train you earn fitness and fatigue points. Usually fatigue points worth more than fitness point but fitness points linger longer than fatigue ones. IOW you get more tired after a session but you recover faster and the adaptation gains (fitness) will last longer.

The reasoning behind tapering is that you want to keep as much fitness as you have achieved during months of training but at the same time get rid of as much of the accumulated fatigue. When you taper you get rid of that fatigue but you can also start losing some of your hard earned fitness hence while the volume is diminished we still perform some intensity to generate enough load to ‘maintain’ your fitness while allowing your body to recover at the same time.

When you taper is because your main goal is to perform at your very best on race day. You are allowing your body to recover while maintaining your hard earned fitness. When athlete race with partial or no tapering it just means that while they still will strive for the best possible performance on race day given their current fitness level + chronic fatigue, the result won't be as good as if they were rested.

Since athletes can only achieve a few top peak performances (max) every season, that’s why they allocate priorities to races labeling A, B, C races. The A races are those in which the athlete will taper 100% in hopes to achieve peak performance, B races are those in which the athlete will taper partially to achieve a solid performance and C races are those in which the athlete won’t taper, still a good performance might be desired but not granted.

Tapering is very personal hence while fitter athletes can taper for shorter period because their bodies tend to recover faster still they tend to train more hence they might end up needing more days to recover. Less trained athletes might need more days to recover due to their lesser fitness however since usually they tend to train less they might be race ready in lesser tapering days.

In the end, tapering for you will vary based on your fitness, experience, genes, etc. If you are following a plan just follow it and while training pay attention how fast or not you recover from hard/long sessions. Somewhere along training you’ll learn how much tapering you’ll need. Good luck!


I wrote this on another post before:

Tapering is nothing more than reducing training load enough to allow your body to recover while doing enough to sustain the maximum amount of gained fitness. Every time you train you get fitter but you also can get proportionally more fatigued. Think it like this, every time you train you earn fitness and fatigue points. Usually fatigue points worth more than fitness point but fitness points linger longer than fatigue ones. IOW you get more tired after a session but you recover faster and the adaptation gains (fitness) will last longer.

The reasoning behind tapering is that you want to keep as much fitness as you have achieved during months of training but at the same time get rid of as much of the accumulated fatigue. When you taper you get rid of that fatigue but you can also start losing some of your hard earned fitness hence while the volume is diminished we still perform some intensity to generate enough load to ‘maintain’ your fitness while allowing your body to recover at the same time.

When you taper is because your main goal is to perform at your very best on race day. You are allowing your body to recover while maintaining your hard earned fitness. When athlete race with partial or no tapering it just means that while they still will strive for the best possible performance on race day given their current fitness level + chronic fatigue, the result won't be as good as if they were rested.

Since athletes can only achieve a few top peak performances every season, that’s why they allocate priorities to races labeling A, B, C races. The A races are those in which the athlete will taper 100% in hopes to achieve peak performance, B races are those in which the athlete will taper partially to achieve a solid performance and C races are those in which the athlete won’t taper, still a good performance might be desired but not granted.

Tapering is very personal hence while fitter athletes can taper for shorter period because their bodies tend to recover faster, they also tend to train more hence they might end up needing more days to recover. Less trained athletes might need more days to recover due to their lesser fitness level however since usually they tend to train less they might be race ready in lesser tapering days.

In the end, tapering for you will vary based on your fitness, experience, genes, etc. If you are following a plan just follow it and while training pay attention how fast or not you recover from hard/long sessions. Somewhere along training you’ll learn how much tapering you’ll need. Good luck!

2009-10-05 7:59 PM
in reply to: #2442873


You can see that my HR was higher out of the chute on the marathon. I am not sure what I should have done. Should I have just walked at the beginning until my HR got down to 130 or lower. You can see the pace was slower as well. I am baffled about what to do next. I would love to do a marathon just like my training run. My nutrition was exactly the same. The only differences were my training run started at 4:08 Am the marathon started at 8:00 AM. Temps were similar. Both runs were a combination of roads and paved paths. I know it is tough to advise people you don't know I am open to any ideas people have. Thanks.  

Kevin 

Edited by chevy57 2009-10-05 8:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
Attached is a comparison of pace and HR taken from my Garmin.

 13-Sep 4-Oct 
milepaceHRpaceHR
110.0813010.52148
210.5412711.12138
310.3413111.02140
410.2613011.2141
510.4713011.33143
610.3912911.27141
71212611.03144
810.413011.08143
910.2512911.35144
1012.0912511.05145
1110.412711.03147
1210.4812911.11147
1310.313110.45150
1410.3113411.02152
1510.313412.08150
1610.213812.04148
1710.0814212.29151
1810.2913913.09148
1910.3314112.37150
2010.1814513.26146
219.5314812.43148
229.5115013.23147
2310.1714913.47140
24  13.16140
25  14.56132
26  15.43126
average total10.3513412.13144
2009-10-05 8:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
Wow that did not look like that when I posted. Sorry.You can see that my HR was higher out of the chute on the marathon. I am not sure what I should have done. Should I have just walked at the beginning until my HR got down to 130 or lower. You can see the pace was slower as well. I am baffled about what to do next. I would love to do a marathon just like my training run. My nutrition was exactly the same. The only differences were my training run started at 4:08 Am the marathon started at 8:00 AM. Temps were similar. Both runs were a combination of roads and paved paths. I know it is tough to advise people you don't know I am open to any ideas people have. Thanks.Kevin
2009-10-05 8:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?

To visually describe Jorge's post.. in my log I my fitness to see where I am.. I am recovering from surgery so I do not want to kill myself with workouts, but want to have a steady build.



In the graph  the blue line is fitness (Chronic training load - CTL), the blue bars are workouts (They receive a training stress score), and the pink line is fatigue (Acute training load - ATL).. the yellow line is my training stress balance (TSB)... the difference between fatigue and current fitness.  A negative yellow line (TSB) means I have a high training load for my fitness.. a positive TSB means I have tapered and am ready to rock it.  

Right now I can only bike so you can see the impact when I go a few days without a bike.. the very large workout took more of a toll than expected on my back, so I took a few days off. 

So basically there is a quick visual on fatigue/taper.



2009-10-06 6:32 AM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
chevy57 - 2009-10-05 4:21 PM Ok

I am thinking of skipping a taper all together. Why wouldn't you keep building to the marathon? I can't help but think if the marathon would have been at the same place in the training cycle as my longest run my post would have said "I just shaved 50 minutes off my previous marathon PR". It doesn't make sense to me that I could perform my longest run at my fastest pace while cranking out 54 miles a week then fall flat on my face after 3 weeks of reduced volume. Why wouldn't I modify the plan so that I reduced the volume after the longest run and did the marathon the next week?

Kevin 

I am sore after EVERY long run.  I don't want to go into a race sore.

During my last marathon, I had my best run as my last long run.  I ran it too fast (at race pace), hurt myself and then had a cruddy marathon.  It would have been a great marathon (for me).  I should have saved THAT RUN for 3 weeks later.

A lot of peeps don't even do long runs before a marathon of more than 14-16 miles.  A proper taper should have the same effect.  By the time you hit the race, you should be like a horse at the Kentucky Derby.  Strong, sound and eager to run.

Looking at your heart rate info, assuming that your legs felt decent, I would recommend pushing harder for the last 4 miles, and forget about your heart rate at this point.  If you feel good at ANY point after mile 20, use that feeling at eat up some mileage.  It's not scientific, but I have heard dozens of runners say that "After mile 20, all bets are off.  Go for it!"

Edited by pga_mike 2009-10-06 6:43 AM
2009-10-06 8:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Can you lose fitness during a taper?
I am going to agree with the poster who said that race day excitement would drive up your HR.

Because you were focused on your HR and not your perceived exertion, you slowed WAY down. This not only caused you to be out there for many more minutes on the course, it also changed your stride and probably caused more pounding. Usually when you run slower, you are back on your heels more. Hence the cramps.

I think my advice would also be to ignore HR. I usually do on race day.  If you are training with HR all the time, you know how your body feels. If you are feeling normal and not breathing too hard and your stomach feels fine, I would just go your normal pace.

I don't think it had anything to do with your taper.
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