Swim sets compared to endurance (Page 2)
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2010-01-22 12:21 PM in reply to: #2628936 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance JoshR - 2010-01-22 10:20 AM newbz - 2010-01-21 1:01 PM Yeah i think, unless you are swimming a lot (for triathletes upwards of 15-20k per week), the merrit of a long swim is really just for you to know you can, be ok doing it, etc (and there is nothing wrong with that), but from a speed standpoint i think you get very little out of it compared to the time you put into it vs what you could gain from intervals. If you are going threshold intervals on short rest, you will end up getting in the distance, or logner, with only a few sec of rest, you can hold a faster speed for much longer like this, and not have form fall apart. I think it helps to do the occasional 1,000 yard set. It helps you as far as pacing, just the overall boredom level involved etc. I do mostly 100-200's but I like to throw in a 500 or 1000 once or twice a week. i'm not sure outside of a TT i could even make myself swim 500 or more........ |
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2010-01-22 12:29 PM in reply to: #2626869 |
Pro 3883 Woodstock,GA | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance One thing to consider is pool swimming DOES NOT equal OWS. Unfortunately for most of us and especially this time of year OWS is not a practical alternative. I highly encourage a Masters group if you are able to participate in one simply for the fact that you aren't having to write your own workouts and you are swimming with a group which is going to make you push harder in the water as well as keep you accountable for showing up on a regular basis. To echo what has been posted before, I don't think that we have done over a 500 interval in Masters either. Long continuous swims are best suited for OWS when able, although if you need to swim 2000m/4000m straight to prove to yourself that you can do it then have at it. Interestingly enough we just installed a current pool and have been doing some research as to the degradation of power on the bike after a continuous swim in the current pool vs the same amount of time and estimated yardage in a regular pool. It is quite interesting to see how much of an advantage that push off has every 25yds/25m/50m vs swimming straight through against a current. |
2010-01-22 12:36 PM in reply to: #2629140 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance its funny i actually tend to do better in open water (even with doing flip turns well in a poool) |
2010-01-22 12:40 PM in reply to: #2628809 |
Regular 316 | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance Appreciate it; will start and let you know the results |
2010-01-22 12:41 PM in reply to: #2629157 |
Pro 3883 Woodstock,GA | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance newbz - 2010-01-22 1:36 PM its funny i actually tend to do better in open water (even with doing flip turns well in a poool) If you have a swim background (i.e. elite HS or college swimmer) then this is often the case. You have a more efficient stroke that is repeatable over the race distance where as inexperienced swimmers or those without solid technique tend to break down as they fatigue over time. The wall for these folks (myself included) is a nice little "cheat" in the pool. |
2010-01-22 1:32 PM in reply to: #2626869 |
158 | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance For what it's worth, I've started with a Master program at my local university (it's a Division 1 school and the coach is our masters team coach as well). We go 1.5 hours and typically swim 3900-4200m and never go over a 400. |
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2010-01-22 1:38 PM in reply to: #2629172 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance Rocket Man - 2010-01-22 11:41 AM newbz - 2010-01-22 1:36 PM its funny i actually tend to do better in open water (even with doing flip turns well in a poool) If you have a swim background (i.e. elite HS or college swimmer) then this is often the case. You have a more efficient stroke that is repeatable over the race distance where as inexperienced swimmers or those without solid technique tend to break down as they fatigue over time. The wall for these folks (myself included) is a nice little "cheat" in the pool. started swimming with tris 4 years ago, no previous swim background |
2010-01-22 1:46 PM in reply to: #2626869 |
Pro 3883 Woodstock,GA | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance Consider yourself fortunate then....this is not the norm by any means. |
2010-01-22 1:51 PM in reply to: #2629339 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance I think a big part of it is not even my swimming, but rather that i am completely ok with the contact and even think its fun to a point. and i;ve been around open water my whole life (grew up fishing and being a rower) so its nothing new/scary to me. |
2010-01-22 2:40 PM in reply to: #2628809 |
Edmonton, Alberta | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance gsmacleod - 2010-01-22 10:30 AM prieto539 - 2010-01-22 11:48 AM As a wannabe HIMer struggling with the swim what would be a sample w/o per week?? Here are a couple, enjoy 400 ch (no more than 100 free) 6x50 drill 200 long, strong and technical 4x25 sprint on 1:00 40x50 on :50 16 as every 4th fast 12 as every 3rd fast 8 as every 2nd fast 4 all fast 300 ch (no free) or 300 choice 4x100 drill as 50 drill/50 swim 4x75 descend on 25 4x{ 300 T pace on 5:30 2x100 fast on 1:45} 400 choice Shane Shane, I know this makes sense to you and many others. However, I am not seeing the entire thing. Can you break this up with clearer specifics. Thanks in advance. Lachlan |
2010-01-22 2:53 PM in reply to: #2628722 |
Pro 6767 the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance JohnnyKay - 2010-01-22 10:56 AM gearboy - 2010-01-22 10:24 AM Maybe I am doing something very wrong, since my results and training are very different. When I take off time, my swimming slows to a crawl (haha - get it? crawl? like the swim stroke? never mind). When I pick up again, I just start swimming distance. This month, my swims have ranged from about 30-60+ minutes. My time (I am slow - remember?) for 100 yards has decreased 15% - about 20 seconds when averaged out just since the beggining of this month. My lap-lap times are more consistent, and I can tell which laps I zoned out too much as they are about 2 seconds slower than the ones I paid attention to my form. So my experience is that I am improving significantly with long continuous swims. Maybe I would be faster with shorter intervals? But I am certainly happy with the results. Maybe it's because I am too slow to begin with, or because I don't have a coach, so I have to remember for myself what the plan for the day would be, and I am taking the easy way out (seriously, who besides a triathlete would say swimming for 1-1.5 or more miles is "taking the easy way out"?) You're not doing anything "wrong". Anybody who practices their swimming should get better and it doesn't really matter what kind of sets you use (or if you use any at all). However, the most effective way to get faster is to swim faster. Shorter sets have advantages in allowing you to both push yourself harder and still focus on maintaing form. And they can build endurance just as effectively. So, yes, you would likely be faster if you started using some intervals and pushing yourself. But, if you are happy with your results and enjoy it, there is nothing at all "wrong" with what you are doing. I mainly do tri's to burn calories and get the weight under control. I suspect when my weight is where I want it to be, and I am stuck at improving my swim times, I will shift to interval training. Clearly I don't have to worry about being able to swim for the distance, which when I (and obviously many others) started was the real concern - when you stopped to take a break after 50-100 yards because you HAD to, not because it was part of the set. |
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2010-01-22 3:01 PM in reply to: #2626869 |
Champion 6503 NOVA - Ironic for an Endurance Athlete | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance IMHusker - 2010-01-21 1:23 PM This may not be an easily answered question but here goes. This is my first real season of training and competing and I am spending a lot more time in the pool as well as running. I am up and capable of doing 2000 yrd swim workouts broken in to sets, but how does that translate to continous swimming? I mean yeah I can swim a 2000 yrd workout but how is that preparing me for a 1500 meter or 1.2 mile continuous swim? Do a test swim. Swim slowly and see how far you can go. The first time that I swam 1500 yards continuously, it made me feel a lot more confidence about my first Oly. I plan on swimming for 45 minutes straight about once every 14 days in prep for my first HIM. |
2010-01-22 3:57 PM in reply to: #2629457 |
Pro 4578 Vancouver, BC | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance Whato - 2010-01-22 12:40 PM gsmacleod - 2010-01-22 10:30 AM prieto539 - 2010-01-22 11:48 AM As a wannabe HIMer struggling with the swim what would be a sample w/o per week?? Here are a couple, enjoy 400 ch (no more than 100 free) 6x50 drill 200 long, strong and technical 4x25 sprint on 1:00 40x50 on :50 16 as every 4th fast 12 as every 3rd fast 8 as every 2nd fast 4 all fast 300 ch (no free) or 300 choice 4x100 drill as 50 drill/50 swim 4x75 descend on 25 4x{ 300 T pace on 5:30 2x100 fast on 1:45} 400 choice Shane Shane, I know this makes sense to you and many others. However, I am not seeing the entire thing. Can you break this up with clearer specifics. Thanks in advance. Lachlan I can take a stab. Swimmers usually focus on 4 strokes, freestyle/crawl, butterfly, backstroke and breaststroke, so: 400 ch (no more than 100 free) Swim 400 metres or yards using any of the 4 strokes that you want, but try not to do more than 100 freestyle 6x50 drill Do a drill for 50 metres or yards 6 times. Each time you do it, it can be a different drill. Things to try might be fingertip dragging freestyle, 1-arm freestyle, zipper drill, layout drill or whatever else you know or want to try. You can probably find some good drills by searching. Don't worry about the time it takes you to do each 50m. Concentrate on the drill. Take maybe 10 seconds of rest after each 50. 200 long, strong and technical Swim for 200 m or yd. Again don't worry about the time. Focus on technique, long and strong strokes. 4x25 sprint on 1:00 Do 25 (m or yrd) going as fast as you can and repeat it 4 times. Start each sprint on 1 minute intervals. For example, if you start when the clock says 00:00, and you finish 25 when the clock says 00:30, then don't start the next sprint until 01:00. If you then start then finish the next sprint and the clock says 01:26, then you wait until 02:00 to start the next sprint and so on. 40x50 on 0:50 is similar to the above with respect to timing except you are doing 50 (m or yrd) 40 times. And you will start each set every 50 seconds regardless of how long the 50m takes you. 0:50 is just an example, you may have to adjust it for a time that you can make. The 300 choice (no free) means swim 300 of any of the other 3 strokes. or 4x100 drill as 50 drill/50 swim Here you are swimming 50 (m or yd) of any drill and then 50 of freestyle, then you take a short rest after that and repeat this 4 times
Swim 75 (m or yd) and get faster (i.e. descend or getting shorter time) for each 25. So that each length of the 75 gets faster Repeat this 4 times. 4x{ Like math read the stuff in the { } first. So swim 300 on your race pace and then rest for the remainder of the 5 minutes and 30 seconds. Then swim 100 m fast on 1 minute 45 seconds and do that twice and then repeat it all 4 times. So for example, if you swim 300 in 5 minutes and 100 fast in 1 minute and 10 seconds, you would be doing the following: 300 in 5 minutes rest for 30 seconds 100 in 1 minute 10 seconds rest for 35 seconds 100 in 1 minute 10 seconds rest for 35 seconds 300 in 5 minutes, etc... until you've done the 300 4 times and the 2x100 4 times or 8 100s.
You know this by now. Edited by jeng 2010-01-22 4:00 PM |
2010-01-22 5:01 PM in reply to: #2626869 |
Edmonton, Alberta | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance |
2010-01-22 5:20 PM in reply to: #2629634 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance |
2010-01-22 6:29 PM in reply to: #2629350 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance newbz - 2010-01-22 1:51 PM I think a big part of it is not even my swimming, but rather that i am completely ok with the contact and even think its fun to a point. and i;ve been around open water my whole life (grew up fishing and being a rower) so its nothing new/scary to me. I know that sound all HTFU, but I think you aren't swimming hard enough in the pool if you are faster OW. So there. |
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2010-01-22 8:35 PM in reply to: #2629856 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance bryancd - 2010-01-22 5:29 PM newbz - 2010-01-22 1:51 PM I think a big part of it is not even my swimming, but rather that i am completely ok with the contact and even think its fun to a point. and i;ve been around open water my whole life (grew up fishing and being a rower) so its nothing new/scary to me. I know that sound all HTFU, but I think you aren't swimming hard enough in the pool if you are faster OW. So there. we do need to race, . its not that the open water is faster, but i am faster comparitively than open water/the people i swim with. or rather i dont slow down in OW |
2010-01-22 8:39 PM in reply to: #2626869 |
Elite 3315 Miami | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance |
2010-01-22 9:43 PM in reply to: #2629983 |
Bob 2194 Binghamton, NY | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance newbz - 2010-01-22 9:35 PM bryancd - 2010-01-22 5:29 PM we do need to race, . its not that the open water is faster, but i am faster comparitively than open water/the people i swim with. or rather i dont slow down in OWnewbz - 2010-01-22 1:51 PM I think a big part of it is not even my swimming, but rather that i am completely ok with the contact and even think its fun to a point. and i;ve been around open water my whole life (grew up fishing and being a rower) so its nothing new/scary to me. I know that sound all HTFU, but I think you aren't swimming hard enough in the pool if you are faster OW. So there. Can I get in on this race? |
2010-01-22 9:46 PM in reply to: #2629172 |
Expert 1123 Falls Church, VA | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance Rocket Man - 2010-01-22 1:41 PM newbz - 2010-01-22 1:36 PM its funny i actually tend to do better in open water (even with doing flip turns well in a poool) If you have a swim background (i.e. elite HS or college swimmer) then this is often the case. You have a more efficient stroke that is repeatable over the race distance where as inexperienced swimmers or those without solid technique tend to break down as they fatigue over time. The wall for these folks (myself included) is a nice little "cheat" in the pool. I know I'm not one of the only people who feel like doing flip turns makes things harder.. If you're getting swam over every 25 yards and having to hold your breath longer than normal, you are breathing regularly in the open water.. how fast would people run if they had to hold their breath for a few seconds every 1/8th of a mile? |
2010-01-22 10:02 PM in reply to: #2629856 |
Elite 4564 Boise | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance bryancd - 2010-01-22 5:29 PM newbz - 2010-01-22 1:51 PM I think a big part of it is not even my swimming, but rather that i am completely ok with the contact and even think its fun to a point. and i;ve been around open water my whole life (grew up fishing and being a rower) so its nothing new/scary to me. I know that sound all HTFU, but I think you aren't swimming hard enough in the pool if you are faster OW. So there. I think you meant if you are jostling with people then you aren't swimming hard enough in the pool because you should be in the front |
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2010-01-23 6:41 AM in reply to: #2626869 |
Master 2621 Mechanicsburg, PA | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance I am going to break the mold on this tread. I am a FOP swimmer. Most of my swim set were 500, 1000 and even 2000yds last year. I also did a lot of ows swimming. I agree with quite a bit of what was said here. This coming year I will work on more intervals and long swims. btw don’t listen to that bryan guy he is kind of slow. |
2010-01-23 8:21 AM in reply to: #2630166 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Swim sets compared to endurance tasr - 2010-01-23 6:41 AM I am going to break the mold on this tread. I am a FOP swimmer. Most of my swim set were 500, 1000 and even 2000yds last year. I also did a lot of ows swimming. I agree with quite a bit of what was said here. This coming year I will work on more intervals and long swims. btw don’t listen to that bryan guy he is kind of slow. Man, ain't that the truth. I think it's ok to every now and then do a long, straight swim. Sometimes I juts don't feel like doing a a bunch of shorter timed sets, counting laps, hitting the lap button, and I'll just go for 45min, every now and then splitting a 100 to get a sense of pace so I can estimate the distance at the end. |
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