WTC doing away with mass starts at races - Discuss (Page 3)

I didn't read all 3 pages, but I'm probably seconding someone else's opinion:

I don't mind the cutoff shenanigans. What I mind is the fact that during my most recent triathlon (Nations Tri in DC), I started 1:55 after the elites started. That means no access to transition, standing out in the cold in a spandex suit in a corral just waiting for your number to be called. It sucked. A lot. I will not be doing that race again until I am in the 30-35 age group that gets to start first. If they can come up with a way where I know I'm going to start an hour and a half late and therefore I can show up an hour and a half late, set up my stuff an hour and a half late, and change into race attire an hour and a half late, then I'm all for it. But standing around just waiting (While the elites are literally crossing the finish line) is just annoying.

Yup, I agree. When you start in a different wave from other folks you are actually doing a different race, and often in dramatically different conditions. A number of years ago (at NYC Olympic) my wave went into the water right behind the pros and I swam 18:xx. I had friends go off about an hour later who were much better swimmers than me and they swam 27:xx. The difference? The tide turned in the Hudson - I had the benefit, they lost out that time. Race anywhere hot during the summer? The difference between getting on the course an hour earlier or later than others can be HUGE. For this reason alone I would always rather do a mass start when given the opportunity.

I think they're focussing on mass participation.  IM is becomming the new marathon (if it hasn't already) where people are far more bothered with saying they've done it than entering in the spirit of the event.

It will push real athletes out of the sport looking for the next big thing and fill the race up with people looking to impress the neighbours.

I agree with this.  I considered the mass start as part of the experience.  AZ would have felt incomplete without that first 45 mins of total chaos.

The reason is easy: liability and to "do something" about swim deaths- a knee jerk reaction like the NFL and all the new safety rules regarding head injuries. They are having to respond somewhat to this perception. Savanna HIM was a wave start, so it's natural for them to think they can do it in fulls as well I guess.

This will be much more effective than a change in start style.

:rollseyes: 

it is going to be like sex without foreplay...

x2 this was happening at IMLOU until they stated you CANNOT camp out overnight to get in line first - which is what people were doing. I think people still show up hours before the line officially opens (at 5 a.m.?), but they're not pulling all nighters out there anymore.

After first I didn't like the possible change, but when you put it like that . . . .

I personally don't like this idea at all either.  As crazy as that mass start is, it's one of the craziest things about the sport that really separates it from others.   Frankly, I'm not sure how a wave of 200 people is any safer than 2500 people. In the end, one individual person is still going to be surrounded by 20 or so other people in the same space.  In fact the time trial start is the biggest thing that keeps me from wanting to do Louisville.  

Really stinks for people who are going to be struggling to make the 17 hour cut off which could be reduced by 45 minutes or so.  Someone could finish in 16:55 and finish, where someone else might finish in 16:20 and technically DNF.  I don't like anything about it.

I didn't read your link, but is there evidence that these deaths are related directly to mass starts as opposed to simply going to hard?  A wave of 2500 people or 200 people you're still going to be very crowded so I just don't see how this changes things.  Unless with fewer people to watch rescuers may see people struggling?  I dunno, still seems like a lot of people either way. 

I will throw out there, having done both a mass IM start (IMMOO) and the Louisville TT start, that the IMLOU TT start was so incredibly calm. I literally didn't touch one person the entire 2.4 miles. I had to stop about 500yd in to adjust a leaky goggle, no issues, no one near me. I didn't get in line "early" - I just got there when I got there. So I got in the water around 7:30 I think? 

The say it takes 30-40 minutes to get all the athletes in the water. IMO TT starts would be preferable to wave starts, IF they are going to move away from mass starts.

I enjoyed both, for different reasons.

And that was something I disliked tremendously about it.  2800 people in the race and I was in the 30-34 age group. One of the fastest, and we were the 14th wave I think?   We started 1:10 after the first wave.  What that resulted in was first, having transition access cut off at 7.  I was there at 6:30. Which meant I had 2 hours and 10 minutes to kill before I started. Second, you get on the bike course behind 13 waves that are slower than you.  So the bike course was absolute mayhem the entire time because it was loaded with slow riders, many of whom were first time triathletes( it's a very beginner friendly race) with VERY poor race etiquette.  I can't tell you how many people I caught up to riding 3 abreast chatting with each other.  Point being, Savannah is a bad example of wave starts going well.

I could care less either way because I will probably wait a minute or two as mentioned above and not deal with it, just my choice

Are we saying the mass start seperates it from other things in triathlon? if so I agree, but if we say its the mass start that separates it from many things in sport...i would slightly disagree, I think most people think of the 2.4/112/26.2 or even if they do not know the exact mileage they know it is a "monster" of a race and could really care less whether its a mass or tt.

I think if they believe part of the CV deaths are from adrenaline/nevousness etc...the TT or similar to louisville may lower the anxiety and maybe it could help someone.

to those who mentioned insurance costs I just wanted to reply that insurance actuaries do some of the biggest assessments of risk when it comes to insuring these (or any) events. They know the numbers, they know the risks, they know the costs. If it was going to cost more for insurance because of the mass vs. wave start we would probably hear about it. I can agree there is a bit of a media portion to this and backlash that can arise from those who do not know better but since there is no evidence to support that any one way is safer than another, the only way to make it perfectly safe is to get rid of the swim altogether and it become the ironman Duathlon instead right?

I do plan to do an IM at some point and want to do one that has a mass start as part of the experience. The tri's I have done so far all had wave starts which was ok but my adrenaline is no higher or lower there than it would be for anything else. If someone is going to be nervous/anxious/excited, that is how they will be regardless of the start (or at least, that is how I am).

I don't disagree with your other points, but on this one I am definitely different than you. I do not get anxious/nervous/stressed before most races. It's actually pretty hard to stress me out over anything. But the difference between starting with 200 other people and 1000 (I've done both) is significant. That did actually make me anxious about all sorts of things like positioning, wtf are these 500 people behind me going to do, etc. Whereas with 20-200 people, it's really not that different than starting by yourself. You also end up on your own much sooner in a smaller start.

Like I said, just my perspective, mass starts are a different stress for me.

On another note: I think it's silly to just keep it because a "chaotic" start is the true experience. No. Going 140.6 is the experience. That's what you trained for.

Then again, "perfectly safe" would be a stretch as people have died in marathons as well.  The only way to be perfectly safe is to sit on your couch.  Like someone's signature on here, "of course it's hard, its an effing Ironman."  It's good as is, if you can't handle the mass start, you probably can't handle the remaining 140 miles.

Dating myself here but...

Sometime in the 70s in a TV series called Taxi there was an episode where the "Alex" told a story of a lady he knew who was so scared she never left her house, had her food delivered, etc.

One day a car swerved went through her living room window and ran her over while watching TV.

Life is not safe.  Might as well enjoy it.

Agreed.  And it's a bit of a peeve of mine but I completely understand - but i've done so many races where the women's and older-folks are in the later waves.  It can be a lot of waiting and it can be a completely different race - I have had that heat experience you mention but also the number of spectators and available aid declines as the more time passes.  Courses can feel downright lonely.  I have to say it kind of sucked that when I finished Muskoka 70.3 they were already tearing down race banners.  I was thrilled with my result but I started more than 30 minutes after the first waves - so even people slower than me had finished and there weren't that many more people out on the course ... that's more of a comment for the race organizers though.  Please don't tear down race banner too early. 

And, it is also likely a comment on the demographics of tri - especially longer distance where my races have had only about 25% women but you put waves out by age group and women are together in the later waves it's pretty quiet out on the race course later - but that's another topic entirely ...

For the IM distance, I know conquering the mass start was a big accomplishment for me, personally.  I know there are non-mass start IMs - i am sure it would be fine with waves too but for me part of the achievement was getting through it.

conspiracy theories abound....but I can't help but think WTC, being a corporation to make money, is cornered to 4 expansion areas:

1. add more races < which they are trying

2. add more people  < wave starts could allow this

3. reduce operating costs  < lower the insurance (and legal) costs

4. charge more < which they are

between crazy lawsuits and insurance claims seem to kill the fun on nearly everything (eventually).

Personally I would be strongly against going to wave starts for IM.  This past year it was brutal on the swim at IMAZ but still would not want this to change.  

I did find IMFL mass start 2010 and 2011 to be far less brutal.  Plus my IMFL swim time was significantly faster.