any religious people coming to terms with new found atheism? (Page 2)

I don't get how any body with any kind of intelligence has to believe in some kind of supreme being to get through life.  I don't mean to insult anybody, I seriously just don't get it.  What's the point?

I grew up catholic, baptised, confirmed, etc. but I always questioned it, and the answers were simply to "simple", to convenient, too illusionary.  Then I got bored and pulled the plug on the whole thing.

BTW, I'm not against abortion, or gay marriage.

wannabefaster - 2013-03-02 6:14 PM

GomesBolt - 2013-03-02 8:03 PM Honest question, because I wonder where people who claim an atheist set of beliefs stand on this one. If you die next week and find yourself looking at an entity that says "accept me and you shall receive eternal life, deny me and you will suffer eternal torture."

Is there any among you who would take door #2?

Yes or no and then you can expound if you want.

I don't believe in God or god. But, if I am wrong, I have a back door plan. If there were to be a God, in my world that God would care more about who you are and what you have done than he/she would care about me standing in a room and "accepting Christ in to my life" or some other such thing. I try to be nice to people. I try to be a good person. I treat others as I would want to be treated. Any God worth spending eternity with would care more about these things than what church I spent time in. (Didn't Jeffrey Dahmer become a born-again Christian in prison? My family truly believes that he went to heaven and I am not because he accepted Christ. I have no use for that kind of religion). To answer your question; if I am standing in front of God, I would have to change my belief system. I would have evidence which I didn't have before. I would be happy to hang out with him for eternity--but not if Dahmer is there too

Even Pope JP II said hell is not some "place" you spend eternity... hell is simply being apart from God. You can be in hell here, or later... and it's your choice. My experience in my life has shown that to be true.

BikerGrrrl - 2013-03-02 4:25 PM I suspect the largest number of Christians turned Atheist come from a Catholic background

This is purely anecdotal, and I'm not sure why, but an overwhelming majority of participants at my Buddhist center are what I refer to as "recovering Catholics."  Just a curious observation.

My eventual conclusion in disbelief in a pervasive, all controlling supreme being had nothing to do with any (Catholic) religion's bastardization of teachings into hate of man at all -- and even 10 years ago, I would have pitied someone like myself today.  So whatever your belief system, I will respect it, though disagree.  I won't even think you're destined for some hell realm.

I think it's interesting that belief in "God" gets mixed up with Christ. I have no problem whatsoever with my belief in Jesus Christ as a man who lived, who very likely was a Bodhisattva, and espoused many of the same principles of the Buddha (after Buddha's time).

Just a side note, something I didn't know till I studied further is there are Buddhas all around us, even I can become a Buddha, which is what Buddhism teaches.  Unlike Christianity, no one would presume to become "God."  Buddhism teaches that everyone has Buddha nature, it's just unrealized.

The interesting thing about this "discussion" is each side has valid reasons for their belief and will likely not change.  And given that, oh, what's the statistic, 45% of the U.S. believes in creationism, it's safe for me to assume I'm pretty close to a minority.

Oh, and for the proposition of Door #1 and #2, in the very unlikely event "God" shows up at the end, I would never believe that my desire for enlightenment for the benefit of all sentient beings would be displeasing to whoever this "God" is and he would banish me to some version of tortuous hell.

This line of thought is exactly where I began my journey toward atheism. I was raised Catholic, but never really believed/bought it. Once I was in undergrad I began to question many things, including my spiritual beliefs. Of the first questions I considered was basically this same line of thinking. To me it says that, at the extreme, I could be a complete failure as a human being (mass murderer etc.) but "accept god" at my death and all is forgiven. Yet, I could be an amazing human being and because I believe in Zeus, or another deity that is not the correct one, I face eternal torment? Seems too much like something someone with an agenda would make up, rather than an absolute truth. From there the it wasn't long before the entire concept of a god, just didn't jive with my own beliefs. So now, I am a confirmed atheist and am very comfortable with my decision.

If for some reason there is a god, I have to believe that they are open to a multitude of belief systems (including non-belief), not just one. Otherwise the vast majority of current, past and future humans will be joining me at club Hades.

Beautifully put Powerman. 

I was raised stanch Catholic and went through all my "training". I became a born again Christian and followed that for years. I"m sure my faith, while in college, saved me from doing some some dum..a.. s.. .

The only problem I have with that faith is the "exclusivity" needing to proclaim that most of the world (that does not share this faith) is heading to hell in a hand basket. And it's my job to "spread the good news"

How do I know that Christianity is the "only" way. 

Also, over the last two years, out of desperation, (I was going through some major emotional heaviness) I found the art of mediation "mindfulness". That has been so helpful to me on a personal level... But the Buddhist ideas behind it are considered a false religion according to my church's beliefs. 

My husband is a devout fundamental christian. We go to an awesome church, and I actually do devotionals with my son. We talk about good character and faith/giving/praying.

I also want him to have something greater than himself  to hold onto when times get tough..

I do believe in the power of  having "faith". 

wannabefaster - 2013-03-02 7:14 PM

GomesBolt - 2013-03-02 8:03 PMHonest question, because I wonder where people who claim an atheist set of beliefs stand on this one. If you die next week and find yourself looking at an entity that says "accept me and you shall receive eternal life, deny me and you will suffer eternal torture."

Is there any among you who would take door #2?

Yes or no and then you can expound if you want.

I don't believe in God or god. But, if I am wrong, I have a back door plan. If there were to be a God, in my world that God would care more about who you are and what you have done than he/she would care about me standing in a room and "accepting Christ in to my life" or some other such thing. I try to be nice to people. I try to be a good person. I treat others as I would want to be treated. Any God worth spending eternity with would care more about these things than what church I spent time in. (Didn't Jeffrey Dahmer become a born-again Christian in prison? My family truly believes that he went to heaven and I am not because he accepted Christ. I have no use for that kind of religion).To answer your question; if I am standing in front of God, I would have to change my belief system. I would have evidence which I didn't have before. I would be happy to hang out with him for eternity--but not if Dahmer is there too

I really didn't mean this question as an attempt at a "gotcha!" I was just curious what you guys felt.

As for the question of "good person, bad person". There's a book called "If no one is perfect, how good is good enough?" Basically, if you're a "good person" by your standards, you could be a horrible person by another's standards (eating bacon is bad to some, beating your wife for not wearing a veil is bad to others). Think "Decker" from Showtime.

I left the Catholic faith as well because it is a rather passive faith and has its foundations in traditions as opposed to scriptures.

Real Christianity focuses on Christ and specifically, what the bible says and tells us to do.

If you follow the bible, you would never tell someone they're going to he11 because you know several key passages such as in Romans 3:23-26, Paul says (paraphrasing) "all of us err and fall short of the glory of God, but it is by grace alone that we are saved." I believe a perfect and omnipotent being would have a perfect grace that truly can save anyone. Because otherwise, none of us could live up to the standard and all would be "apart from God."

When you embrace that grace, you find yourself doing things for others as well (feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the poor, visit the sick and imprisoned).

As for Jeffrey Dahmer, well, Saint Paul of Tarsus was a serial killer of Christians and yet he became the strongest advocate for Christ and wrote half of the New Testament. That's why its Grace and not a contest to see who can be gooder...

I find it equally puzzling how any body with any kind of intelligence can believe in so many coincidences happening in succession to where we have a planet full of conscious, rational human beings without the slightest spark from a creator.

How was matter created if not from a creator?

BTW, I'm definitely against abortion, and the death penalty.

This is the exact question that caused me to fall out of faith.  Raised in the church for 18 years.  Priest and his family even lived with us.  Not overly religious growing up but both parents were (and still are) very active in the church community.  As a young adult I realized that church was nothing more than a social outlet.  I didn't know anything about the Bible despite years of Sunday school and even going through a confirmation.  I couldn't tell you the difference between Isaac, Abraham or Job.  No clue who they are.  I realized that I just liked getting dressed up, putting on a front of professionalism and having access to attractive girls. 

Years later, I struggled to figure out what I believed.  I didn't believe in the literal Bible but believed in many of its tenets and history.  But I kept coming back to this whole "Pearly Gates" issue.  And I couldn't (still can't) reconcile the following:

1.  Why would I praise a man/spirit/belief that is so judgmental that s/he/it would grant me salvation or damnation upon my arrival?

2.  What does it mean to have an afterlife that is either good or bad?  What kind of powerful being would only create those two options?

GomesBolt - 2013-03-03 8:05 AM

wannabefaster - 2013-03-02 7:14 PM

GomesBolt - 2013-03-02 8:03 PMHonest question, because I wonder where people who claim an atheist set of beliefs stand on this one. If you die next week and find yourself looking at an entity that says "accept me and you shall receive eternal life, deny me and you will suffer eternal torture."

Is there any among you who would take door #2?

Yes or no and then you can expound if you want.

I don't believe in God or god. But, if I am wrong, I have a back door plan. If there were to be a God, in my world that God would care more about who you are and what you have done than he/she would care about me standing in a room and "accepting Christ in to my life" or some other such thing. I try to be nice to people. I try to be a good person. I treat others as I would want to be treated. Any God worth spending eternity with would care more about these things than what church I spent time in. (Didn't Jeffrey Dahmer become a born-again Christian in prison? My family truly believes that he went to heaven and I am not because he accepted Christ. I have no use for that kind of religion).To answer your question; if I am standing in front of God, I would have to change my belief system. I would have evidence which I didn't have before. I would be happy to hang out with him for eternity--but not if Dahmer is there too

I really didn't mean this question as an attempt at a "gotcha!" I was just curious what you guys felt.

As for the question of "good person, bad person". There's a book called "If no one is perfect, how good is good enough?" Basically, if you're a "good person" by your standards, you could be a horrible person by another's standards (eating bacon is bad to some, beating your wife for not wearing a veil is bad to others). Think "Decker" from Showtime.

I left the Catholic faith as well because it is a rather passive faith and has its foundations in traditions as opposed to scriptures.

Real Christianity focuses on Christ and specifically, what the bible says and tells us to do.

Therein lies another big issue for me.  My experience in the church and continued relationship with believers demonstrates that people only want to cherry pick the Bible.  So mainstream christianity isn't following what the bible says.  It too often follows only what is convenient.  The bible has tons of good...but it also has tons of bad. 

I don't understand how people can unquestionably submit themselves to a belief that is an ever changing tenet and gets interpreted in so many different ways.  If the bible is the word of god then why is there so much conflict, different interpretations and disagreeing between religions?  As I see it, the word of god should be that the word of god.  Not what some pope, priest, bishop etc decides should be the position and interpretation of the church. 

My parents never really pushed any beliefs on me and I have been pretty well an Atheist my whole life. 

I have come to admit in the last few years that a big bang starting the universe or a god starting the universe are both equally incredulous, so maybe I'm not a full Atheist then. I've done a decent amount of investigation into some religious history including a very interesting class on the History of the Bible. The more I look at all of this, the more apparent it seems to me that this is all a man made thing. I believe that religion helps people cope with the parts of life that they don't understand such as the afterlife, creation, etc. I also can't believe/support in something that allows the cruelty in this world to exist. 

In regards to your question Gomes, I would choose #2. Can you imagine telling a child (the equivalent of humans to God) that if you don't love me and choose me I'm going to kick you out to the streets? That's basically treating people as dogs. What kind of a God/person is that? Not someone that I would ever want to be associated with.

ADollar79 - 2013-03-03 7:26 AM

GomesBolt - 2013-03-03 8:05 AM

wannabefaster - 2013-03-02 7:14 PM

GomesBolt - 2013-03-02 8:03 PMHonest question, because I wonder where people who claim an atheist set of beliefs stand on this one. If you die next week and find yourself looking at an entity that says "accept me and you shall receive eternal life, deny me and you will suffer eternal torture."

Is there any among you who would take door #2?

Yes or no and then you can expound if you want.

I don't believe in God or god. But, if I am wrong, I have a back door plan. If there were to be a God, in my world that God would care more about who you are and what you have done than he/she would care about me standing in a room and "accepting Christ in to my life" or some other such thing. I try to be nice to people. I try to be a good person. I treat others as I would want to be treated. Any God worth spending eternity with would care more about these things than what church I spent time in. (Didn't Jeffrey Dahmer become a born-again Christian in prison? My family truly believes that he went to heaven and I am not because he accepted Christ. I have no use for that kind of religion).To answer your question; if I am standing in front of God, I would have to change my belief system. I would have evidence which I didn't have before. I would be happy to hang out with him for eternity--but not if Dahmer is there too

I really didn't mean this question as an attempt at a "gotcha!" I was just curious what you guys felt.

As for the question of "good person, bad person". There's a book called "If no one is perfect, how good is good enough?" Basically, if you're a "good person" by your standards, you could be a horrible person by another's standards (eating bacon is bad to some, beating your wife for not wearing a veil is bad to others). Think "Decker" from Showtime.

I left the Catholic faith as well because it is a rather passive faith and has its foundations in traditions as opposed to scriptures.

Real Christianity focuses on Christ and specifically, what the bible says and tells us to do.

Therein lies another big issue for me.  My experience in the church and continued relationship with believers demonstrates that people only want to cherry pick the Bible.  So mainstream christianity isn't following what the bible says.  It too often follows only what is convenient.  The bible has tons of good...but it also has tons of bad. 

I don't understand how people can unquestionably submit themselves to a belief that is an ever changing tenet and gets interpreted in so many different ways.  If the bible is the word of god then why is there so much conflict, different interpretations and disagreeing between religions?  As I see it, the word of god should be that the word of god.  Not what some pope, priest, bishop etc decides should be the position and interpretation of the church. 

What has got me is the hypocracy.  The commandments are simple, yet so few even attempt to follow them.  I cannot get past the opulence in the face of poverty and suffering.  The false idols in terms of possessions and celebrity hero worship (the praying for the bishop and the pope during mass, I mean why do those people get a special call out).  It struck me as so unauthentic. 

But even when I was young, like 8-10, I would sit in church and listen to sermons of fire and brimstone.... and it made no sense to me what so ever. Even as a little kid, I had not done anything "wrong" yet with my life, most transgressions were out of ignorance... I was a "good" little boy and listened to my parents... yet I was going to burn in hell for eternity because I had not been baptized yet. Yet the very next sentence was was all about an all loving God. Even an 8 year old can see that makes no sense. All I had to compare it to was my parents, that they loved me unconditionally, but yet if I didn't "make my bed", they were going to cast me into the lake of fire to burn for eternity.

But that isn't what is in my heart, and after a long time figured people just got it wrong... that it is a good metaphor for simple people (as a whole, not believers) to understand, but obviously not anything close to some "omnipotent supreme being". Religion is most certainly man made. And if you like the fellowship of like minded people to gather and commune with a God of your understanding.... that's great. It's just not my cup of tea, and the God of my understanding... if there is one... is perfectly fine with that.

My parents left and started many churches for this reason. They finally got tired of "church". But here is what I do not get with reasonable adults... pretty much every religion/philosophy pin points the cause of suffering... self. That selfish, self centered actions based in ego are not God/spirituality centered and cause all our problems. So when a Buddhists leaves Christianity because how "all those people acted", I am quite surprised that it is not seen for what it is... people suffering due to self. And how others leave the Church because of the "hipocracy"... when in fact it is just people that are self centered and are standing in their own way of a higher meaning of spirituality. And in the end, that is what we all are... people just trying to work on being better people... finding a higher purpose than just eating and pooping... and that none of us are perfect yet.

It's pretty silly to blame Jesus or Christianity for people acting like people. I have even thought that if you are a self righteous type... that you gain your self esteem at the expense of others... that being a Christian is a really great thing to be. Not that that is what all Christians are, just that if that is what you are drawn to, you would naturally be drawn to church and there would be a lot of them. I think the same thing about police. If you are a control freak, being a cop would be an awesome job... not that that is what all police are... but you get what I mean. But at the end of the day, if I am a Christian, my relationship with Jesus is between me and him, and there isn't anyone else that has a say in what that is or isn't. God has nothing to do with Church.

x2 to GomesBolt.

One of the bigger challenges for many of us is the difference between God and church.  I have a firm belief in a One, True God. However, the "Church" seems to be where the hangups and issues come from. And why not, the church is run by people. People who will never live up to the measure of what we think our God expects. But really, what is your expectation of your children? Probably in line with God's expectations of us. 

Interesting thought.

I'm not sure why one who questions "creationism" would be considered lacking intelligence. Lacking faith does not equate to lacking smarts. 

The Biblical answer: Genesis 1:1 in the Hebrew literally translated says "In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth-- the earth had existed waste and void."

So he had already created the Universe and now he was working on the Earth.

So you actually dont get a creation of all things until you go to John 1:1 where you get: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; this one was in the beginning with God; all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened."

So Yes, God was just being and then said "I think I'll make something today."

I wasn't trying to question his intelligence, just returning the volley and at the same time identifying that if we weren't created by some intelligent creator, then you believe that we are just lucky to have the evolutionary equivalent of tossing a quarter 100,000,000,000,000 times and having it come up heads to get to where we are now.

Actually, I once heard a good analogy that it's more like the quarter landing on the edge of the quarter, standing up 100,000,000 times in a row. Because our planet is such a demonstration of temperates (temperature, atmosphere, distance from the sun, etc).

Edited by GomesBolt 2013-03-03 1:55 PM

I think C.S. Lewis got it quite wrong. If you are a Christian (or any brand of monotheist), then you have to believe that all the other religions' panoplies of gods (and there are plenty of gods out there), are wrong. To be an atheist is to only discount one more god. 

As a kid in hebrew school, I used to wonder when we heard about the "other gods" (most typically, given the history of my peoples, Greek and Roman, with some of the ancient Persians, Egyptians, and Palestinians/Philistines thrown in), and be told how silly it was for them to have believed in THEIR gods, when CLEARLY our god was the ONLY god. As I got older, and learned about the sciences, the tenuous hold of the creation stores (and we were taught that everything pre-antediluvian was metaphor), seemed like any other cultures mythologies. When I went to Catholic university for undergrad, and heard people's stories, I began to wonder about the notion of "specialness" of any group of people. And finally, as I grew older, the idea of a god who is taking a personal interest in everyone (yet intervening only in SOME cases - apparently football games and not, say, starvation in war-torn areas of Africa), seemed to no longer make sense. 

IF the point of religions is to make people believe in THEIR god(s), then I suppose Lewis is right in his point - that atheism says that the "main point" of all religions is a huge mistake. However, I believe that religions' main point is to provide a common story to unite people. It gives us a sense of commonality, that helps us to move away from killing those not in our family/tribe/unit, and to build on the sense of compassion that is evident in smaller ways in other primates. In many cases, it helps to provide a set of rules and structure that we can follow, in an era when the rule of law was not a thing we had. By providing a sense of community, it helps people to feel connected to those around them. By providing rituals, it gives people a sense of connection to the past and the future. It helps people to mark significant events in their lives. 

I have done a lot of work with people in recovery - I know that it can help give some people a set of beliefs that helps them maintain their sobriety. I am not someone who only sees the bad that religion brings, but neither do I see it as necessary for everyone.

Lifelong Christian but I am struggling with the fact God made us but yet we fail to follow his guidance thus we are not perfect.  So he made us knowing this then why blame us or either he was not perfect in his creation.  That's thought one.  And I have always struggled with the fact terrible things happen to children (Newtown) and where is God?  I fell like he is not as close or either, well, I don't want to imagine a life after death with nothing.

There's one thing for sure, our life will surely end and we all get to participate in that one.  Good luck.