To Run Fast, You Need To Run Fast (Page 2)

Excellent post.  One other area that seems to get missed a lot, especially for the more newbie runner, is lose weight.  It is amazing what kind of speed you can pick up by shedding 10, 15, even 20 lbs if you can spare it.  

Edited by thebigb 2013-10-24 6:46 PM

Great post and very informative.

Is the same true for cycling?

X2

When doing higher intensity running, you should run fast enough to elicit the desired training effect but not faster. On occasion, dropping the hammer just to see what you can do can be valuable but generally this would be in a race and training runs should be just hard enough.

Shane

Do you have a link? I've been through all my exercise physiology texts, gone through all the scholarly articles I could find as well as a whole bunch of blogs and everything I've found says minimal to zero eccentric contractions during the pedal stroke.

Thanks,

Shane

X2 to this and Jason's post; it is all about increasing training load.

Shane

Had a feeling you would want me.to post a link bit on phone now and not easy but it essentially is anatomy and biomechanics and independent research is not needed or at least info that has been around for decades......one example is regarding the hamstrings if on the down.stroke from 12 o'clock positiion ( o degrees) to 180 the hamstrings are being activated because they are a hip extensor with glute max but since they also cause flexion of the knee however the knee is.going into extension under contraction. Also the hamstring is antagonistic to the quads which when activated not only caused knee extension but anterior shearng of the tibia on the femur, therefore the hamstring counteracts this force.


I will try to post tomorrow some links that everyone likes to.read . I had one earlier with a emg activation pattern.

Great post Shane! Timely as I was running slow mile repeats on the TM and listening to an old podcast of Dave Scott (2010?) talking about this very thing. I have started to incorporate more slow n easy miles into this off season training as my running is not very good at all. I think than many endurance athletes, being mostly the type A's that we are, really struggle with going long and easy to build the base. Many times we may feel like we just are not getting much out of it if we are not gassed when we are finished. Scott says in his initial assesment when training slower that he really had a hard time to get into and stay in zone 2 while running, he had to slow well over 3 minutes per mile to ( he was HR training at the time).

One question I have: I have found that spending the majority of my running on the TM is helping me stay healthy. I really enjoy running outside, especially lately with the So Cal weather, but, anything over 3 miles and I am hurting the next day or longer in the knees, feet and hips. I do try to find softer surfaces outside, the local HS track is nice, but the mill works for me. How will this hinder my running come race day if most of my work is done inside? I have remained mostly injury free (some PF for about 7 months 2 yrs ago) and I do think the TM running is helping me stay healthy. At this point (54 next year) injury free and getting to the line healthy are the most important aspects. Your thoughts?

Thanks again for your insight, as always, on spot!

@shane: i'm not going to debate again about the point, i'm just asking to add some knowledge and i'm still willing to learn something i don't know.
i have a good base in term of mileage and endurance, as for now i'm concentrating to build some speed/power and conpete in shorter races then usually (10km) and add distance again in 2014.
in a 3 training session per week i focused more on quality works (intervals, sprint..) and only once i did ab easy run usually not longer then 12-14km. it paid off, but do you think o would have had bettrer results switching to maybe 2 easy run and 1 quality run?
thank you

Thanks for this, Shane. I'm already a believer, as are most of the others on this thread, but it's useful to have this in one place -- we can now link to it in response to future versions of the "run fast by running fast" argument.

But there's one part of this that I'm unsure of. You seem to be arguing that high volume / low intensity running is important for running only because it is a safer way to develop aerobic capacity. The impact and eccentric contractions create an injury risk, and this makes it harder to incorporate high intensity training than in biking and swimming. This would suggest that a similar diet of low intensity training would be just as effective for cycling training as it is for running. It just would be a less-than-optimal way to train for cycling. On this view, the role of impact in running is simply to force us to build aerobic capacity in a less efficient manner. Are you sure that this is all that there is to it? Or is it the case that the ability to sustain impact / eccentric contractions is a key component of the ability to run fast for long distances, and that low intensity run training develops this ability, making it more useful than low intensity cycling?

I have thought about this often, because of my own surprise at the effectiveness of lots of steady run training. I'm far more fragile than I would like to be as a runner, and I'm currently on an injury-induced run break, hoping to get myself fixed in preparation for a spring marathon build. But when I am able to run, I have been shocked by how well I'm able to race based on a diet of daily steady running with zero speedwork. I do almost all of my running at 7:00 - 7:30 pace, only very rarely indeed throwing in a couple of miles as fast as 6:30 - 6:45. But with that base I'm able to race at 6:00 pace or faster without it feeling like a stretch. I *never* run that fast in training. I've been racing for 35 years now, but I'm still setting PRs at age 45 (in longer-distance events; forget the shorter stuff). I can't imagine doing the equivalent in cycling training.

If you had the background that allowed you to run 3x/week with two being harder sessions and not get injured, it is unlikely that you would have seen better results with two easy runs and one harder run as that would have lower training stress. What likely would have been better would be two key harder runs, one long run and three easy run sessions.

Shane

Thanks Shane, great post. This is my first season doing Tri's and I started out running faster than I should have, which lead to aches and pains which would cause me to take multiple days off. After my first race I started using the Maffetone Method and did EVERY run in zone 2. No speed work at all and was able to stay healthy and run more often and bested my previous race 5k time by almost a full minute after a much longer swim and hilly bike course. Today I actually ran for the 3rd day in a row for training. It doesn't sound like much, but I think its the first time ever that I have run 3 days in a row. I am really going to try and work hard this winter to build my base and log many miles. I'm definitely a big believer of the slow zone 2 running.

What I believe a lot of this comes down to is customized training. Which really its why we need coaches to reach our full potential. They can evaluate our current level of fitness, training history, injury history, age, goals, etc..., and tweak a training program to find where you can make the most gains and work to improve weaknesses.

The easiest way to gain for most people is to add volume at lower intensity, but this is not an absolute. It is just what the far majority of runners would benefit from.

The basic principle of all of our training is to stress the body to force adaptation. If you always run long and slow, you are not continuing to stress your body, and you are going to plateau and stagnate. I think it is important to remember, that there are other components of being and becoming a stronger runner.

Here are a few examples: strides, speed work, (and drills!!!...just ask any African runner), will improve your biomechanics, and teach your body to have a better turnover. Also, a hard tempo run, or a hard progression run will stress the body more than a long steady run and force greater adaptation, in addition, it will also strengthen you MENTALLY, which I don't think should be overlooked. If you suffer training, its easier to suffer racing. Hill work or weights will make you stronger, and can actually make you more injury resistant if done right.

However, as these additional components are added to your training, it is important to remember that these will increase the stress on the body, and may result in injury if not done correctly. Which is why again, I would advocate coaching if it is something that is feasible. A good coach will know you, and how much of the additional stress your body can take.

Shane's post was excellent, but I feel the some of the key points could get lost under the premise of this thread which somewhat argues against its subject "To Run Fast, You Need To Run Fast."

To quote a few of his points, "higher intensity running is certainly a component of a well designed training program," and his conclusion, Focus on slowly increasing your run volume to the point that you really don't have time to add any additional run volume to your week and then look at starting to look at making one of the runs harder while keeping the others easy. As a wise man once said, "run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard."

I think the title of this thread should be, "To Run Fast, You Need To Run Fast....Sometimes."

There are definitely adaptations that occur with higher volume running that will usually see a runner develop more durability than a lower volume runner. More running will help the body adapt to be better suited to do even more running and should help the athlete better tolerate the physical demands of running.

Thanks for pointing this out, as I now realize that I didn't do a good job at addressing the fact that there are more than just metabolic adaptations occurring.

Shane

I am not afraid of 6x a week running over the winter and increasing my mileage to a large number. I have read the barryP plan maybe ill work with that over the entire winter and see how that works out