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2014-01-15 7:36 PM

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Subject: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds
I think that my smart daughter intentionally threw her PSAT's to prove that she is not smart.

She got the last 12 questions wrong. What are the odds that even if she randomly guessed she would get 12 in a row wrong.


2014-01-15 8:55 PM
in reply to: pga_mike

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Supersonicus Idioticus
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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds
3%

Assuming there are four choices (a-d)

But sometimes the last questions of a test are the toughest. And further, they are written to trip you up.

Ever had a question that said something like, "which of the following are not causes of the government not shutting down?" Some test writers love to do this.
2014-01-15 9:54 PM
in reply to: pga_mike

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds
The last 12-questions....she was tired! I hate to admit I have been guilty of this my entire life. I despise taking tests! It's kind of like the last 10K of a marathon...just get the damn thing over with! Tests are a poor measure of how smart someone is...or isn't.
2014-01-16 5:55 AM
in reply to: #4932537

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds
Tired and not good at standardized tests is not an excuse. My contention is that to get EVERY question wrong, she had to INTENTIONALLY avoid the right answer.
2014-01-16 7:31 AM
in reply to: pga_mike

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds

Originally posted by pga_mike I think that my smart daughter intentionally threw her PSAT's to prove that she is not smart.  

 

I checked SFSC's math and agree that it's 3% assuming four choices per question.

 

Why would your daughter "throw" her PSAT's - this is not even a test that means anything....

2014-01-16 10:42 AM
in reply to: mehaner

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds

Originally posted by mehaner

Originally posted by pga_mike I think that my smart daughter intentionally threw her PSAT's to prove that she is not smart.  

 

I checked SFSC's math and agree that it's 3% assuming four choices per question.

 

Why would your daughter "throw" her PSAT's - this is not even a test that means anything....

No idea the real reason here but one reason I can think of is to lower expectations. If a kid performs poorly on a PSAT, their parents are likely to be pleased with a not so great but slightly higher score on a test that means something. If a kid tests and gets D's constantly and then pulls a C+ at the end, there is going to be a small amount of celebration, even though a C+ is nothing to get excited about under normal circumstances. 

Just a theory, doesn't necessarily apply to the OP and his kid. 

If she didn't throw the test on purpose then she needs to go buy a lotto ticket today! 3% is pretty durn good! Maybe even ask her for some picks on this weekends games OP.



2014-01-16 11:15 AM
in reply to: pga_mike

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds
Originally posted by pga_mike

Tired and not good at standardized tests is not an excuse. My contention is that to get EVERY question wrong, she had to INTENTIONALLY avoid the right answer.



3% sounds like really long odds, but if you had a classroom full of kids randomly guess at 12 questions, one of those kids would miss them all. 3% is roughly 1 in 33.

2014-01-16 11:48 AM
in reply to: Aarondb4

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds

Originally posted by Aarondb4

Originally posted by mehaner

Originally posted by pga_mike I think that my smart daughter intentionally threw her PSAT's to prove that she is not smart.  

 

I checked SFSC's math and agree that it's 3% assuming four choices per question.

 

Why would your daughter "throw" her PSAT's - this is not even a test that means anything....

No idea the real reason here but one reason I can think of is to lower expectations. If a kid performs poorly on a PSAT, their parents are likely to be pleased with a not so great but slightly higher score on a test that means something. If a kid tests and gets D's constantly and then pulls a C+ at the end, there is going to be a small amount of celebration, even though a C+ is nothing to get excited about under normal circumstances. 

Just a theory, doesn't necessarily apply to the OP and his kid. 

If she didn't throw the test on purpose then she needs to go buy a lotto ticket today! 3% is pretty durn good! Maybe even ask her for some picks on this weekends games OP.

She doesn't want to be seen as smart.  Too much like her big sister who is not as smart but way more academically driven.

It kills me that she is not achieving her potential.  But I was a National Merit scholar with a B Average.  So Karma!

2014-01-16 11:51 AM
in reply to: pga_mike

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds

Originally posted by pga_mike

Originally posted by Aarondb4

Originally posted by mehaner

Originally posted by pga_mike I think that my smart daughter intentionally threw her PSAT's to prove that she is not smart.  

 

I checked SFSC's math and agree that it's 3% assuming four choices per question.

 

Why would your daughter "throw" her PSAT's - this is not even a test that means anything....

No idea the real reason here but one reason I can think of is to lower expectations. If a kid performs poorly on a PSAT, their parents are likely to be pleased with a not so great but slightly higher score on a test that means something. If a kid tests and gets D's constantly and then pulls a C+ at the end, there is going to be a small amount of celebration, even though a C+ is nothing to get excited about under normal circumstances. 

Just a theory, doesn't necessarily apply to the OP and his kid. 

If she didn't throw the test on purpose then she needs to go buy a lotto ticket today! 3% is pretty durn good! Maybe even ask her for some picks on this weekends games OP.

She doesn't want to be seen as smart.  Too much like her big sister who is not as smart but way more academically driven.

It kills me that she is not achieving her potential.  But I was a National Merit scholar with a B Average.  So Karma!

She'll likely outgrow it.....I'd leave it alone.  If she's smart she'll figure it out.

2014-01-16 1:26 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds
Making random choices the odds are against getting 12 in row wrong. But suppose there was a misunderstanding of a key concept? That could lead to wrong answers.
2014-01-16 1:53 PM
in reply to: donw

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds

I could be wrong (no personal experience).  I don't think that kids are that sophisticated.  If she wanted to throw it to prove a point - she would get all of them wrong.  Why pick the last 12?

The decision making to throw JUST the last 12, while working hard on all the rest, just to prove some point seems to vague and obscure and complicated of a thought process just to make a simple point of "I'm not smart" when getting ALL of the wrong would do that better.  I'm not sure kids or as capable at "subtle" messages that would take you effort to decipher.

When I see kids say they can't do something and try to prove it?  They look comical in their over exaggeration in their inability to make SURE you know they can't do it.



2014-01-16 2:00 PM
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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds

3% is right...well...3.16%.  (0.75^12).  If there were 3 choices then it would be a 0.7% chance.  5 choices would be 6.9%.

At first I thought that maybe she skipped a question without knowing and messed up the coordination between which number she was looking at in the question booklet and which number she was filling in on the answer sheet.  But the probability should still be the same assuming the test isn't programmed to have succeeding questions have the same choice answer two times in a row.  Which would be kind of silly.



Edited by Jason N 2014-01-16 2:04 PM
2014-01-16 2:03 PM
in reply to: Kido

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds

Originally posted by Kido

I could be wrong (no personal experience).  I don't think that kids are that sophisticated.  If she wanted to throw it to prove a point - she would get all of them wrong.  Why pick the last 12?

The decision making to throw JUST the last 12, while working hard on all the rest, just to prove some point seems to vague and obscure and complicated of a thought process just to make a simple point of "I'm not smart" when getting ALL of the wrong would do that better.  I'm not sure kids or as capable at "subtle" messages that would take you effort to decipher.

When I see kids say they can't do something and try to prove it?  They look comical in their over exaggeration in their inability to make SURE you know they can't do it.

I wonder how hard it would be for me to take something like the SAT and purposely get everything wrong.  Obviously if I'm smart enough to know all the answers, I can do it...but since I don't know all the answers, I'd eventually have to guess which is the wrong answer on a bunch of questions.  Sometimes there is usually one choice that is obviously wrong...so that helps...but I just wonder if I could do it.  Odds say I probably can't though...so maybe that will motivate me more?  

2014-01-16 2:06 PM
in reply to: pga_mike

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds

Originally posted by pga_mike

She doesn't want to be seen as smart.  Too much like her big sister who is not as smart but way more academically driven.

This stands out to me.
If she is seeing/observing big sister struggle with being/becoming "smart" it's not a giant leap for little sister to say "looks like too much work, I'll pass" and this is an easy way to get out of it. 

Armchair psychology, I know.

But I had these thoughts in hindsight when I realized how hard advanced math was after geometry. I wished SO HARD that I would have played dumb in middle school so I would have never been identified as "advanced." I would have easily gotten a 4.0 if it weren't for trig and calc (which the "regular" kids don't have to take). TO THIS DAY: GRRRRR.

 

2014-01-16 2:10 PM
in reply to: lisac957

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds

maybe she got to the end of a REALLY LONG test, that means absolutely nothing and realized that she really JDGAF.

2014-01-16 2:55 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds

Here is an interesting article I read not long ago about how children respond to praise. A quote from the article " Giving kids the label of “smart” does not prevent them from underperforming. It might actually be causing it."

I would also recommend reading the book Mindset: The New Psychology of Success written by Carol Dweck. It was recommended to me in a BT thread last Fall and it really made an impact on how I work with my kids and what I say to them about their achievements.

http://nymag.com/news/features/27840/

 

 



2014-01-16 2:59 PM
in reply to: trigal38

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds
Perhaps I'm being thick here but surely the stats only work if she randomly answered the last 12 questions?

If she was trying to get them right then in most multiple choice tests, as far as I remember (long time ago), then one answer was silly, another was plausible and the last two were close but only one was right.

Just seen Trigals post too. I never call my girls smart but I always tell them I'm impressed with what good listeners they are and how they won't give up on a problem until they've cracked it. I'm guessing that article is along the same lines as the one I read to try that 'trick' - it works. There was nothing exceptional about their listening skills or application but they've both improved a lot since I gave them this feedback.
2014-01-17 6:57 AM
in reply to: Dan-L

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds
Could they have been worded funny? I know I always had a problem on standardized test with the wording of the question and not exactly knowing what they are asking. Some people are nervous test takers. At the end of the test, time could have been almost up and she just sort of got something down on the paper for a shot.

Don't know could be anything
2014-01-17 8:36 AM
in reply to: Jtiger

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds

If there are four choices for each question then the probably  of getting some of the twelve questions right by guessing is 25%.   To get all of them wrong by guessing has a change of 3.16% as stated above.   To purposely get all of them wrong requires the test taker to know all the right answers and then choosing the wrong answer.   

 

Either way, you have one smart daughter.

2014-01-17 8:50 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds

Originally posted by dmiller5

maybe she got to the end of a REALLY LONG test, that means absolutely nothing and realized that she really JDGAF.

 

+1

2014-01-17 10:10 AM
in reply to: Gmax101098

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds

Originally posted by Gmax101098

Originally posted by dmiller5

maybe she got to the end of a REALLY LONG test, that means absolutely nothing and realized that she really JDGAF.

 

+1

agree with this theory as well - there have absolutely been times when i sat through pointless tests - or tests i already knew i passed - and answered a series of C's to get out faster.  and a PSAT?  i never even took that - that is a waste of time/money test especially if your kid IS smart.  it's a great tool for bad test takers to practice for the real one, but a huge waste for a smart kid.



2014-01-17 10:30 AM
in reply to: mehaner

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds
Did she run out of time maybe? Maybe she realized she had 1 minute left to answer 12 questions and just guessed.
2014-01-17 10:33 AM
in reply to: mehaner

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds
Originally posted by mehaner

Originally posted by Gmax101098

Originally posted by dmiller5

maybe she got to the end of a REALLY LONG test, that means absolutely nothing and realized that she really JDGAF.

 

+1

agree with this theory as well - there have absolutely been times when i sat through pointless tests - or tests i already knew i passed - and answered a series of C's to get out faster.  and a PSAT?  i never even took that - that is a waste of time/money test especially if your kid IS smart.  it's a great tool for bad test takers to practice for the real one, but a huge waste for a smart kid.




Except the PSAT is the test used to determine National Merit Scholarships, which can be big money, so the really smart kids have lot of incentive to take it and do well.
2014-01-18 9:11 PM
in reply to: JoshR

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds

Originally posted by JoshR Did she run out of time maybe? Maybe she realized she had 1 minute left to answer 12 questions and just guessed.

^^ I think the best guess will be based on what she told the OP about it.

Getting off by one row on a handwritten test can really mess you up, too.

2014-01-19 3:31 PM
in reply to: spudone

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Subject: RE: 12 in a row wrong in multiple choice, what are the odds
As for pressure to not become like her big sister,

Whose standards are you holding against your daughter? Yours? Your older daughter's? Hers?

The last one, in my inexperienced opinion, is the most important.
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