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run less run faster
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 2014-12-04 5:16 PM |
 10 |  Subject: run less run fasterHas anyone incorporated the run less run faster approach into their triathlon training? I'm curious if it helped their times and at what distance. I'm thinking of adding it into my first training attempt for Eagleman. |
| 2014-12-04 5:20 PM in reply to: Agustufus |
Extreme Veteran 1986     Cypress, TX | Subject: RE: run less run faster Run less in what sense? |
| 2014-12-04 5:32 PM in reply to: GMAN 19030 |
| 928 | Subject: RE: run less run faster I assume you are talking about the "Run Less, Run Faster" book, a la FIRST training: http://www.furman.edu/sites/first/Pages/default.aspx I've never done it because I prefer to run more, some fast, some less fast.  I've heard some triathletes like it if they run 3x/week as a basis for their run workouts. But it's not designed to be a triathlete's plan-- all the runs are key runs, so you won't be able to do as many key bike and swim workouts. I also prefer to run at least 4, preferably 5x/week while tri-training. |
| 2014-12-04 5:34 PM in reply to: Agustufus |
| Subject: RE: run less run faster I read the book when I first started running 5 years ago. I think the principles can be applied to someone who already has a strong running background and base. It's replacing volume with a lot of intensity. Because running is high impact, that intensity can lead to injury very quickly for runners who don't have a running background/base. The book tries to take the angle that their method prevents injury by avoiding high volume. Well, there are no shortcuts to improving your running and avoiding injury. Either you take the time necessary to slowly build your volume, and slowly incorporate intensity into your program...or you don't and you get hurt. A new runner who tries to jump into a high volume and low intensity program is likely to get hurt. A new runner who tries to jump into a low volume and high intensity program is also likely to get hurt. It takes time and patience to do it right. Eventually though, we will all get hurt as runners. The difference is whether or not you recognize what' you're doing early enough so you can make corrections to your training without significant time off. |
| 2014-12-04 6:04 PM in reply to: #5072177 |
| 10 | Subject: RE: run less run faster Thanks everyone. I trained for my first 70 this year and I'm looking to finish faster next year. I was going to try the 12 week plan for a 5k in February and use the half marathon plan if the 5k goes well. Thanks again for any feedback. |
| 2014-12-04 6:07 PM in reply to: #5072189 |
| 10 | Subject: RE: run less run faster And yeah, i was referring to the book. |
| 2014-12-04 7:56 PM in reply to: Agustufus |
Veteran 732 Pittsburgh, PA | Subject: RE: run less run faster I had been a casual runner for many years (up to half marathons) and had done some tris... tried to use it for a marathon a while back, and gave myself a stress fracture within the first month. I was also running on a lot of concrete and really pushing the pace. |
| 2014-12-04 9:05 PM in reply to: Agustufus |
| 1055 | Subject: RE: run less run faster Originally posted by Agustufus Thanks everyone. I trained for my first 70 this year and I'm looking to finish faster next year. I was going to try the 12 week plan for a 5k in February and use the half marathon plan if the 5k goes well. Thanks again for any feedback. If your goal is to get faster for your next HIM, then toss out some numbers on what your paces were, splits, and how much training you did. That would most likely lead to a better discussion on how you can get faster than if running less is going to make you faster. IMO, that is an easy answer. . . no. |
| 2014-12-04 10:04 PM in reply to: Agustufus |
Expert 2555 Colorado Springs, Colorado | Subject: RE: run less run faster It can work for some people. A good running base would be very helpful prior to starting. A guy I work with runs about 20 miles/wk, all hard...and has done 5ks in the 16:30 range in the past year. Pretty fast for a 53 year old. |
| 2014-12-04 10:41 PM in reply to: Donskiman |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: run less run faster Originally posted by Donskiman It can work for some people. A good running base would be very helpful prior to starting. A guy I work with runs about 20 miles/wk, all hard...and has done 5ks in the 16:30 range in the past year. Pretty fast for a 53 year old. Yep |
| 2014-12-04 10:41 PM in reply to: Donskiman |
Member 256 Iowa City, Iowa | Subject: RE: run less run faster I would agree with others that it may be a little risky injury-wise and I would prefer to run more even if at a slower pace (but keep in mind I do run some at race pace). If you have any times or splits you could provide that would be helpful. |
| 2014-12-04 10:57 PM in reply to: Agustufus |
Veteran 495 Calgary | Subject: RE: run less run faster I followed the 10 km plan very closely a few years ago and set a PR for the 10 km distance (stand alone running race). Since then I've started running more at slower speeds which feels more sustainable but I haven't managed to improve upon my 10 km time. Don |
| 2014-12-05 5:42 PM in reply to: #5072191 |
| 10 | Subject: RE: run less run faster Good information. I was curious of others experience with integrating the First approach with triathlon training. Most of the posts i read only applied to running and not tri's. I am concerned about injury but that was part of the appeal of the program. The authors say there's less chance of injury. We will see. Thanks again. |
| 2014-12-06 7:53 AM in reply to: Agustufus |
| 292 , Massachusetts | Subject: RE: run less run faster I haven't read the book but it is true that you won't make any real speed gains by running long slow distance. LSD has other advantages in terms of building endurance and mental stamina, but the only way to build speed is to run at high intensity (like 90-95% max heart rate) for shorter duration. Sprints and track intervals are good for this. Many people simply think that more is better so they end up running high volume at a pace that is both too high to allow for proper recovery and too low to make any speed gains, and they never get any faster. Since most running injuries are repetitive use injuries (tendonitis, plantar fasciitis, ITB syndrome, etc.), it does stand to reason that more volume increases the risk for these types of injuries. However, in my experience the bigger risk factor for injury among runners is a lack of strength training. A solid strength training regimen is important for joint mobility and alignment which allows for improved movement patterns. I forget the exact stat but it's something along the lines that the average runner takes 10,000 steps in an hour of running - if you have poor movement patterns you're repeating them thousands of times every time you run and significantly increasing your risk for injury. A good strength program that incorporates the big compound lifts (squats, deadlifts, presses & pulls) will go a long way in improving movement patterns and reducing that risk. Unfortunately it's probably the thing that is most often neglected among runners. Ultimately I think variety is the key to successful run training - some LSD, some speed work, some sprinting, mix in some trail runs, and definitely incorporate a good strength program. |
| 2014-12-06 1:03 PM in reply to: dgconner154 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: run less run faster Originally posted by dgconner154 I haven't read the book but it is true that you won't make any real speed gains by running long slow distance. LSD has other advantages in terms of building endurance and mental stamina, but the only way to build speed is to run at high intensity (like 90-95% max heart rate) for shorter duration. Sprints and track intervals are good for this. Many people simply think that more is better so they end up running high volume at a pace that is both too high to allow for proper recovery and too low to make any speed gains, and they never get any faster. Since most running injuries are repetitive use injuries (tendonitis, plantar fasciitis, ITB syndrome, etc.), it does stand to reason that more volume increases the risk for these types of injuries. However, in my experience the bigger risk factor for injury among runners is a lack of strength training. A solid strength training regimen is important for joint mobility and alignment which allows for improved movement patterns. I forget the exact stat but it's something along the lines that the average runner takes 10,000 steps in an hour of running - if you have poor movement patterns you're repeating them thousands of times every time you run and significantly increasing your risk for injury. A good strength program that incorporates the big compound lifts (squats, deadlifts, presses & pulls) will go a long way in improving movement patterns and reducing that risk. Unfortunately it's probably the thing that is most often neglected among runners. Ultimately I think variety is the key to successful run training - some LSD, some speed work, some sprinting, mix in some trail runs, and definitely incorporate a good strength program. Oh......now you've done it.
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| 2014-12-06 1:07 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Veteran 2842 Austin, Texas | Subject: RE: run less run faster Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by dgconner154 I haven't read the book but it is true that you won't make any real speed gains by running long slow distance. LSD has other advantages in terms of building endurance and mental stamina, but the only way to build speed is to run at high intensity (like 90-95% max heart rate) for shorter duration. Sprints and track intervals are good for this. Many people simply think that more is better so they end up running high volume at a pace that is both too high to allow for proper recovery and too low to make any speed gains, and they never get any faster. Since most running injuries are repetitive use injuries (tendonitis, plantar fasciitis, ITB syndrome, etc.), it does stand to reason that more volume increases the risk for these types of injuries. However, in my experience the bigger risk factor for injury among runners is a lack of strength training. A solid strength training regimen is important for joint mobility and alignment which allows for improved movement patterns. I forget the exact stat but it's something along the lines that the average runner takes 10,000 steps in an hour of running - if you have poor movement patterns you're repeating them thousands of times every time you run and significantly increasing your risk for injury. A good strength program that incorporates the big compound lifts (squats, deadlifts, presses & pulls) will go a long way in improving movement patterns and reducing that risk. Unfortunately it's probably the thing that is most often neglected among runners. Ultimately I think variety is the key to successful run training - some LSD, some speed work, some sprinting, mix in some trail runs, and definitely incorporate a good strength program. Oh......now you've done it. That's why I do kick sets. Matt |
| 2014-12-06 10:03 PM in reply to: dgconner154 |
Expert 2555 Colorado Springs, Colorado | Subject: RE: run less run faster Originally posted by dgconner154 I haven't read the book but it is true that you won't make any real speed gains by running long slow distance. LSD has other advantages in terms of building endurance and mental stamina, but the only way to build speed is to run at high intensity (like 90-95% max heart rate) for shorter duration. Sprints and track intervals are good for this. Many people simply think that more is better so they end up running high volume at a pace that is both too high to allow for proper recovery and too low to make any speed gains, and they never get any faster. Since most running injuries are repetitive use injuries (tendonitis, plantar fasciitis, ITB syndrome, etc.), it does stand to reason that more volume increases the risk for these types of injuries. However, in my experience the bigger risk factor for injury among runners is a lack of strength training. A solid strength training regimen is important for joint mobility and alignment which allows for improved movement patterns. I forget the exact stat but it's something along the lines that the average runner takes 10,000 steps in an hour of running - if you have poor movement patterns you're repeating them thousands of times every time you run and significantly increasing your risk for injury. A good strength program that incorporates the big compound lifts (squats, deadlifts, presses & pulls) will go a long way in improving movement patterns and reducing that risk. Unfortunately it's probably the thing that is most often neglected among runners. Ultimately I think variety is the key to successful run training - some LSD, some speed work, some sprinting, mix in some trail runs, and definitely incorporate a good strength program. Interesting. You must know something the world's fastest distance runners don't know as all of them run high mileage. Personally my speed increased substantially as my volume went up from 30 mpw to 70+ mpw. I'm not in the process of rebuilding and recovering from a running related injury and am at just over 40 mpw. My injury was a broken fifth metatarsal that occurred in a trail race. Never had an overuse injury from running higher volume despite running more than 10,000 miles in a four year period. Certainly fast running is necessary, but it takes surprisingly little when coupled with high volumes of low intensity running. |
| 2014-12-07 11:24 AM in reply to: Donskiman |
| 292 , Massachusetts | Subject: RE: run less run faster Originally posted by Donskiman Interesting. You must know something the world's fastest distance runners don't know as all of them run high mileage. Personally my speed increased substantially as my volume went up from 30 mpw to 70+ mpw. I'm not in the process of rebuilding and recovering from a running related injury and am at just over 40 mpw. My injury was a broken fifth metatarsal that occurred in a trail race. Never had an overuse injury from running higher volume despite running more than 10,000 miles in a four year period. Certainly fast running is necessary, but it takes surprisingly little when coupled with high volumes of low intensity running. I'm not suggesting that LSD isn't important, just that you need to run fast to get faster. And I agree that the high-intensity work only needs to be small percentage of your running if you're following a polarized training plan. Most runners I know spend too much time in the middle ground. Awesome that you've never had an injury running that kind of mileage! |
| 2014-12-07 11:41 AM in reply to: dgconner154 |
Master 4118 Toronto Bronze member | Subject: RE: run less run faster I've used it with good results over a few distances since 2008. I know it's controversial but it really helped me move my speed. The only distance that it didn't result in a pr was the marathon distance (but i was sick) but my running buddy went from 4:08 to 3:53. Actually, i just set a 10k PR today using the 10k plan and I wasn't super consistent which didn't make me happy but that's my life circumstance for the moment. Very happy! It is pretty aggressive pacing, i think so you have to have a pretty good base and i wouldn't recommend it for the injury-prone. Because it's aggressive i wouldn't use it all the time - i need a break now after all the tempo paces and intervals. I also think it was really good for me because I have no issue with endurance (I could LSD, easy pace all the time!) - but it was difficult to start working more aggressively. Give it a shot if it interests you. Lots of people poo-poo on it but for 12-16 week cycle ... give it a go. |
| 2014-12-07 11:47 AM in reply to: juniperjen |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: run less run faster Originally posted by juniperjen I've used it with good results over a few distances since 2008. I know it's controversial but it really helped me move my speed. The only distance that it didn't result in a pr was the marathon distance (but i was sick) but my running buddy went from 4:08 to 3:53. Actually, i just set a 10k PR today using the 10k plan and I wasn't super consistent which didn't make me happy but that's my life circumstance for the moment. Very happy! It is pretty aggressive pacing, i think so you have to have a pretty good base and i wouldn't recommend it for the injury-prone. Because it's aggressive i wouldn't use it all the time - i need a break now after all the tempo paces and intervals. I also think it was really good for me because I have no issue with endurance (I could LSD, easy pace all the time!) - but it was difficult to start working more aggressively. Give it a shot if it interests you. Lots of people poo-poo on it but for 12-16 week cycle ... give it a go. Nice! Congrats on the PR! |
| 2014-12-07 2:01 PM in reply to: Donskiman |
Member 413 | Subject: RE: run less run faster Originally posted by Donskiman It can work for some people. A good running base would be very helpful prior to starting. A guy I work with runs about 20 miles/wk, all hard...and has done 5ks in the 16:30 range in the past year. Pretty fast for a 53 year old. Agree with the good running base. I had been running about 5 days a week and then did the FIRST program when I was trying to BQ. I did BQ (and it was about an 8 minute marathon PR for me). What was weird was dropping down to 3 days of running from 5. Funny after that, I have kept to running 3 days a week, but started doing a lot more swimming and biking. That marathon was back in 2008. Now I want to BQ again and am really torn about doing the FIRST again (even though it worked for me) because I am older and more injury prone…sigh, still not sure. |
| 2014-12-07 7:22 PM in reply to: Agustufus |
Veteran 393 Greenville, SC | Subject: RE: run less run faster I have this book and have used it many times. As others have stated it depends on the person. For me it is perfect and have used it many times in my HIM training programs. It helped me get from a 25 minute 5k down to a 20 minute 5k. I was lacking the speed work that the program had me do. It is at least worth a read. |
| 2014-12-08 9:38 PM in reply to: #5072489 |
Expert 2555 Colorado Springs, Colorado | Subject: RE: run less run faster Reading back through this thread has me wondering what is being considered fast? I guess my perspective is different as I work with guys who are course record holders and overall race winners. One ran a 1:05 half marathon this year, another is a former 2:12 marathoner. The other thing is watching my son's high school XC meets in which there was one race when over 100 boys ran 16:30 or faster for 5K. What do they all have in common! They all likely run more weekly mileage than many of you do for marathon training. I know the top kids on my son's team were running at least 50 mpw. If faster is moving from a 10 minute pace to 9:30 then almost any consistent program may yield results. I have doubts that many people are going to go from 10:00 to 6:00 by running less, but there will always be a few outliers who do. |
| 2014-12-08 10:00 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: run less run faster Originally posted by Donskiman Reading back through this thread has me wondering what is being considered fast? I guess my perspective is different as I work with guys who are course record holders and overall race winners. One ran a 1:05 half marathon this year, another is a former 2:12 marathoner. The other thing is watching my son's high school XC meets in which there was one race when over 100 boys ran 16:30 or faster for 5K. What do they all have in common! They all likely run more weekly mileage than many of you do for marathon training. I know the top kids on my son's team were running at least 50 mpw. If faster is moving from a 10 minute pace to 9:30 then almost any consistent program may yield results. I have doubts that many people are going to go from 10:00 to 6:00 by running less, but there will always be a few outliers who do. My kid also runs HS XC and put up a 15:58 this year on 25 mpw......but he does a ton of speed work compared to the other kids. I think that he could get the same results by running more, but he also swims during XC season because the short course season for his club team has started....he has to find a way to make time for both.....and he has coaches who have found a way. So he goes from XC practice to swim club and usually gets 5-7000 yards in the pool per day. Can he be faster than 15:58 if he gave up swimming and ran more? I think that's a legitimate question, but one that he won't have anything to do with because of triathlon. He has one more XC season and 2 more track seasons before he may likely face a decision of giving up triathlon for a few years while he runs in college.....and he'll certainly run more there. I'm looking forward to seeing how it shakes out......but he's proved that he can be competitive in running while only doing ~1/2 the miles.....at least for now. Oh.....and I know what you are saying about these kids and XC races.......my kid ran a 16:04 at Nike regionals and was 94th. HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Edited by Left Brain 2014-12-08 10:05 PM |
One thing is for certain......he can't be competitive in triathlon without the swimming yardage.....you need sectional and damn near Jr. National cuts to make the first pack in the Jr. series now. He would tell you he is a better swimmer because of running and a better runner because of swimming......I'm sure there are lots of slower people who say that he's wrong.| 2014-12-08 11:31 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 928 | Subject: RE: run less run faster I might be wrong, but I don't think the title "Run Less, Run Faster" means that if you run less you'll run faster. It means that in this style of training, you run less volume but at a faster paces than the higher volume methods. Edited by jennifer_runs 2014-12-08 11:32 PM |
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