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2015-03-24 8:46 PM
in reply to: simpsonbo

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by simpsonbo If its tight ( crowded lane or very crowded meet warm up) I stack my feet vertically. Faster swimmers tend have a much smaller footprint on their lane.

I'd veer off into the wrong lane!



2015-03-24 9:02 PM
in reply to: Nick B

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by Nick B I noticed that it was a rest break. I do my very best to not take much more than a small breath while turning. I've tried a few times to learn to flip. But at the time I needed to get the yardage in. I do feel that we leave off the beginner part of beginner triathlete quite often. The OPs message while very spamy seems right on the money. Gives some good tips on how and why to do the flip turn but doesn't accuse those that don't as bein inferior.

It's not a matter of being inferior or superior......it's a matter of what helps someone become a better swimmer.  Flip turns do.  It's really not arguable.

2015-03-24 9:17 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

LB, yes, I have gotten faster with age.  I'm in the 45-49 AG and just set personal best times at a recent swim meet.  I qualified for USMS Nats in the 50 fly.  I was less than a sec away from NQTs in 50 free, 50 back, and 50 breast.   :shrug:

But this thread is about flip turns or not.  And I will say, do them if you want.  But its a different skill than swimming fast in open water. You can be a competitive swimmer without them.  For someone who's trying to be a better tri swimmer, focusing more on balance, rotation, breathing both sides, having a good catch, etc. are much more relevant skills to learn.

Can we all agree on that?

2015-03-24 9:30 PM
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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by Ridgelake

LB, yes, I have gotten faster with age.  I'm in the 45-49 AG and just set personal best times at a recent swim meet.  I qualified for USMS Nats in the 50 fly.  I was less than a sec away from NQTs in 50 free, 50 back, and 50 breast.   :shrug:

But this thread is about flip turns or not.  And I will say, do them if you want.  But its a different skill than swimming fast in open water. You can be a competitive swimmer without them.  For someone who's trying to be a better tri swimmer, focusing more on balance, rotation, breathing both sides, having a good catch, etc. are much more relevant skills to learn.

Can we all agree on that?

No, you can't.

You can be IN a competitive swim meet without them......but you can't be competitive in a swim meet without them.  You just can't.  I stand on a pool deck for 10-15 meets a year as an official......some kids do open turns.  They get wiped out by the kids who flip turn.  In fact, they aren't even in the game.  While it's true that not doing flip turns isn't their only problem......the fact that they can't do them says volumes about their swim ability.

Where I fall off the page is when people try to push the idea that triathlon swimming, and triathlon swim training, is somehow different than regular swim training.  Of course it's not.  The only difference is that most people training for a triathlon can't swim, and therefore can't even think about doing flip turns.....or don't want to. Swimming is swimming.  Are there other things to work on besides flip turns as you learn to swim.....of course.  But what's to stop someone from practicing a couple flip turns at the end of a workout.  As you become a better swimmer, flip turns will help you increase that learning curve.  Again, it's really not arguable.  Doing flip turns will help you become a better swimmer. 



Edited by Left Brain 2015-03-24 9:31 PM
2015-03-24 9:34 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Two ships passing in a stream.

Cheers.  Be well.

2015-03-24 9:36 PM
in reply to: Ridgelake

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by Ridgelake

Two ships passing in a stream.

Cheers.  Be well.

Good luck at Masters Nationals!!  Getting there as an adult onset swimmer is no small feat.  Congrats!



2015-03-24 9:55 PM
in reply to: Ridgelake

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by Ridgelake

LB, yes, I have gotten faster with age.  I'm in the 45-49 AG and just set personal best times at a recent swim meet.  I qualified for USMS Nats in the 50 fly.  I was less than a sec away from NQTs in 50 free, 50 back, and 50 breast.   :shrug:

But this thread is about flip turns or not.  And I will say, do them if you want.  But its a different skill than swimming fast in open water. You can be a competitive swimmer without them.  For someone who's trying to be a better tri swimmer, focusing more on balance, rotation, breathing both sides, having a good catch, etc. are much more relevant skills to learn.

Can we all agree on that?

Congrats on qualifying !   But missing the cut by 1 second in the 50 free proves they matter.   You can't be competitive in the pool without them.   

Im not trying to take anything away from your gains in swimming and accomplishment so I hope this doesn't come off that way.  Again congrats.  

I don't understand flip turn threads.    

2015-03-24 10:48 PM
in reply to: Left Brain


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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by Left Brain

It's not a matter of being inferior or superior......it's a matter of what helps someone become a better swimmer.  Flip turns do.  It's really not arguable.


^This. I can't say I've ever seen a decent swimmer not do tumble turns. It's an easy skill to acquire and will improve your swimming.
2015-03-25 4:22 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Nick B I noticed that it was a rest break. I do my very best to not take much more than a small breath while turning. I've tried a few times to learn to flip. But at the time I needed to get the yardage in. I do feel that we leave off the beginner part of beginner triathlete quite often. The OPs message while very spamy seems right on the money. Gives some good tips on how and why to do the flip turn but doesn't accuse those that don't as bein inferior.

It's not a matter of being inferior or superior......it's a matter of what helps someone become a better swimmer.  Flip turns do.  It's really not arguable.

Most people are beginner triathletes but are more than likely to be veteran in one of the disciplines.

 

2015-03-25 5:34 AM
in reply to: Ridgelake

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by Ridgelake

LB, yes, I have gotten faster with age.  I'm in the 45-49 AG and just set personal best times at a recent swim meet.  I qualified for USMS Nats in the 50 fly.  I was less than a sec away from NQTs in 50 free, 50 back, and 50 breast.   :shrug:

But this thread is about flip turns or not.  And I will say, do them if you want.  But its a different skill than swimming fast in open water. You can be a competitive swimmer without them.  For someone who's trying to be a better tri swimmer, focusing more on balance, rotation, breathing both sides, having a good catch, etc. are much more relevant skills to learn.

Can we all agree on that?




Sorry to jump in but if your talking about 50s in a 50m pool, flip turns don't matter. It would actually support doing flip turns if your 100 or 200 times are off
2015-03-25 6:48 AM
in reply to: 0


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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by Ridgelake

LB, yes, I have gotten faster with age.  I'm in the 45-49 AG and just set personal best times at a recent swim meet.  I qualified for USMS Nats in the 50 fly.  I was less than a sec away from NQTs in 50 free, 50 back, and 50 breast.   :shrug:

But this thread is about flip turns or not.  And I will say, do them if you want.  But its a different skill than swimming fast in open water. You can be a competitive swimmer without them.  For someone who's trying to be a better tri swimmer, focusing more on balance, rotation, breathing both sides, having a good catch, etc. are much more relevant skills to learn.

Can we all agree on that?




So you qualified in nationals in an event where you are not allowed to do flip turns. I think the earlier post implied that you qualified in a free event (why else would it even be brought up). Next we are going to learn this was LC and there were not turns.

edit: less than a sec in free and back actually makes the case that flip turns could help. Especially in the back. Open turns in backs seem really slow. I have officiated a lot of meets (youth not masters) where the swimmers will be even coming into the wall one does a flip and the other is open. The flipper ends up winning.

Good luck in nationals.

Edited by Sidney Porter 2015-03-25 6:55 AM


2015-03-25 6:50 AM
in reply to: pschriver

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by pschriver

Originally posted by Ridgelake

LB, yes, I have gotten faster with age.  I'm in the 45-49 AG and just set personal best times at a recent swim meet.  I qualified for USMS Nats in the 50 fly.  I was less than a sec away from NQTs in 50 free, 50 back, and 50 breast.   :shrug:

But this thread is about flip turns or not.  And I will say, do them if you want.  But its a different skill than swimming fast in open water. You can be a competitive swimmer without them.  For someone who's trying to be a better tri swimmer, focusing more on balance, rotation, breathing both sides, having a good catch, etc. are much more relevant skills to learn.

Can we all agree on that?




Sorry to jump in but if your talking about 50s in a 50m pool, flip turns don't matter. It would actually support doing flip turns if your 100 or 200 times are off


Not too many people are swimming a 50 in a 50 meter pool. Most have to swim that 50 in a 25yd or m pool at some point.

If you want to be competitive you do flip turns.
2015-03-25 7:41 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

There is a big misconception about what I've said in this thread.  My apologies for that.  I do flip turns when racing in a pool. (I usually don't on most practice laps.)  Flip turns absolutely are faster than open turns.  Its not anywhere close to debatable that they aren't faster in a pool.  I have also never said not to do them.

The point that I've been trying to make all along is that if someone is trying to become a good, competitive TRIATHLON swimmer, which is usually competed in open water, then mastering flip turns is well down the list of ways to improve.  Really to the point of not needing to bother.  Someone who averages, say, a 1:40/100 pace in open water will likely get much better gains by focusing on body position/balance, catch, rotation, etc. than by merely adding flip turns to their repertoire.  Someone can get to a ~30 minute HIM swim without flip turns.  That's my whole point.

Cheers everyone.  Thanks for the well wishes at Nationals.  It should be a fun experience

 



Edited by Ridgelake 2015-03-25 7:53 AM
2015-03-25 9:58 AM
in reply to: Ridgelake

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by Ridgelake

There is a big misconception about what I've said in this thread.  My apologies for that.  I do flip turns when racing in a pool. (I usually don't on most practice laps.)  Flip turns absolutely are faster than open turns.  Its not anywhere close to debatable that they aren't faster in a pool.  I have also never said not to do them.

The point that I've been trying to make all along is that if someone is trying to become a good, competitive TRIATHLON swimmer, which is usually competed in open water, then mastering flip turns is well down the list of ways to improve.  Really to the point of not needing to bother.  Someone who averages, say, a 1:40/100 pace in open water will likely get much better gains by focusing on body position/balance, catch, rotation, etc. than by merely adding flip turns to their repertoire.  Someone can get to a ~30 minute HIM swim without flip turns.  That's my whole point.

Cheers everyone.  Thanks for the well wishes at Nationals.  It should be a fun experience

 

I totally agree, and I also wouldn't consider that a fast or competitive time.

2015-03-25 10:30 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by Ridgelake

There is a big misconception about what I've said in this thread.  My apologies for that.  I do flip turns when racing in a pool. (I usually don't on most practice laps.)  Flip turns absolutely are faster than open turns.  Its not anywhere close to debatable that they aren't faster in a pool.  I have also never said not to do them.

The point that I've been trying to make all along is that if someone is trying to become a good, competitive TRIATHLON swimmer, which is usually competed in open water, then mastering flip turns is well down the list of ways to improve.  Really to the point of not needing to bother.  Someone who averages, say, a 1:40/100 pace in open water will likely get much better gains by focusing on body position/balance, catch, rotation, etc. than by merely adding flip turns to their repertoire.  Someone can get to a ~30 minute HIM swim without flip turns.  That's my whole point.

Cheers everyone.  Thanks for the well wishes at Nationals.  It should be a fun experience

 

I totally agree, and I also wouldn't consider that a fast or competitive time.

Actually, if you look up some HIM race times 30min will be competitive. 

2015-03-25 10:31 AM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by Ridgelake

There is a big misconception about what I've said in this thread.  My apologies for that.  I do flip turns when racing in a pool. (I usually don't on most practice laps.)  Flip turns absolutely are faster than open turns.  Its not anywhere close to debatable that they aren't faster in a pool.  I have also never said not to do them.

The point that I've been trying to make all along is that if someone is trying to become a good, competitive TRIATHLON swimmer, which is usually competed in open water, then mastering flip turns is well down the list of ways to improve.  Really to the point of not needing to bother.  Someone who averages, say, a 1:40/100 pace in open water will likely get much better gains by focusing on body position/balance, catch, rotation, etc. than by merely adding flip turns to their repertoire.  Someone can get to a ~30 minute HIM swim without flip turns.  That's my whole point.

Cheers everyone.  Thanks for the well wishes at Nationals.  It should be a fun experience

 

I totally agree, and I also wouldn't consider that a fast or competitive time.




Define fast or competitive?

http://www.runtri.com/2011/06/how-much-time-does-it-take-to-finish_...

30 minute puts you right into the average women's pro time for HIM swim, will you place in the pro category with that swim - no. Could you place in age group with that swim- yes


2015-03-25 10:43 AM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by Ridgelake

There is a big misconception about what I've said in this thread.  My apologies for that.  I do flip turns when racing in a pool. (I usually don't on most practice laps.)  Flip turns absolutely are faster than open turns.  Its not anywhere close to debatable that they aren't faster in a pool.  I have also never said not to do them.

The point that I've been trying to make all along is that if someone is trying to become a good, competitive TRIATHLON swimmer, which is usually competed in open water, then mastering flip turns is well down the list of ways to improve.  Really to the point of not needing to bother.  Someone who averages, say, a 1:40/100 pace in open water will likely get much better gains by focusing on body position/balance, catch, rotation, etc. than by merely adding flip turns to their repertoire.  Someone can get to a ~30 minute HIM swim without flip turns.  That's my whole point.

Cheers everyone.  Thanks for the well wishes at Nationals.  It should be a fun experience

 

I totally agree, and I also wouldn't consider that a fast or competitive time.

Define fast or competitive? http://www.runtri.com/2011/06/how-much-time-does-it-take-to-finish_... 30 minute puts you right into the average women's pro time for HIM swim, will you place in the pro category with that swim - no. Could you place in age group with that swim- yes

oops you're right. I was looking at when he said 1:40/100 pace and assumed that's what 30 min swim was. a 30 min swim is 1:30 pace.

1:40 pace is 33:20

Even so, I wouldn't consider that competitive for a male age grouper. 

more important in short course as well. If you give up 4 minutes to me in an Olympic, see ya later.

2015-03-25 10:47 AM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by Ridgelake

There is a big misconception about what I've said in this thread.  My apologies for that.  I do flip turns when racing in a pool. (I usually don't on most practice laps.)  Flip turns absolutely are faster than open turns.  Its not anywhere close to debatable that they aren't faster in a pool.  I have also never said not to do them.

The point that I've been trying to make all along is that if someone is trying to become a good, competitive TRIATHLON swimmer, which is usually competed in open water, then mastering flip turns is well down the list of ways to improve.  Really to the point of not needing to bother.  Someone who averages, say, a 1:40/100 pace in open water will likely get much better gains by focusing on body position/balance, catch, rotation, etc. than by merely adding flip turns to their repertoire.  Someone can get to a ~30 minute HIM swim without flip turns.  That's my whole point.

Cheers everyone.  Thanks for the well wishes at Nationals.  It should be a fun experience

 

I totally agree, and I also wouldn't consider that a fast or competitive time.

Define fast or competitive? http://www.runtri.com/2011/06/how-much-time-does-it-take-to-finish_... 30 minute puts you right into the average women's pro time for HIM swim, will you place in the pro category with that swim - no. Could you place in age group with that swim- yes

There is nobody winning or placing in HIM (in the competitive groups) who can't do flip turns in a swim workout.

2015-03-25 10:53 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by Left Brain

There is nobody winning or placing in HIM (in the competitive groups) who can't do flip turns in a swim workout.

Most of them can because if you swim enough to become a good swimmer, chances are you will learn the ability to do flip turns at some point.  But I knew a guy who was quite competitive (KQer) and I never saw him do a single flip turn in 10 years of training.  I assume he could, because I know he learned to swim as a kid.  He just didn't have the need to do so very often.

2015-03-25 11:05 AM
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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
So I watched a couple more videos yesterday and tried to mix in some more flip turns last night.
Age 40+ish
Good swimmer as a kid, in that I'm not afraid of water. Classes as a small child, so my Mom would feel that I had confidence. Went to the pool all the time. The lifeguards would give me free frozen Snickers if I'd do belly flops for them. They were bored. Had decent instruction at times in Boy Scouts and two PE classes in college, taught by guys from the swim team. In fact, we got some instruction from a two time Olympian and Big 10 record holder in one or two distances in freestyle several times. Kinda cool. Not that I learned great technique, but I certainly learned to avoid the really major bad technique (splashy kicking, non pointed toes, decent body position). Oddly, I remember more about the backstroke and breaststroke than anything. Never really learned butterfly.

I never did swim team, so I never learned flip turns.

My results:
-lots of water up the nose (need to figure out the breathing)
-found out I'd been doing the mechanics wrong (starting the roll back to my stomach way to early)

Also discovered:
-it's not the wall touch that's the resting time (although, there are times when I will 'extend' that)
-a good chunk of resting comes on the approach, since you can't mosey into a flip turn it's REALLY easy to start gliding several to many strokes before the wall.


Edit:
I'm only fiddling with it, because it's just something else to learn/explore and expand my universe. The only time I'm actually competitive is playing any kind of game with my wife, or when my kids who do swim team challenge me to a race at the local pool.

Edited by jhaack39 2015-03-25 11:07 AM
2015-03-25 11:25 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

There is nobody winning or placing in HIM (in the competitive groups) who can't do flip turns in a swim workout.

Most of them can because if you swim enough to become a good swimmer, chances are you will learn the ability to do flip turns at some point.  But I knew a guy who was quite competitive (KQer) and I never saw him do a single flip turn in 10 years of training.  I assume he could, because I know he learned to swim as a kid.  He just didn't have the need to do so very often.

No doubt.....but it's also what helps make them good swimmers.  Look, there are NO good swimmers who can't flip turn.  Your KQ example is no exception.



2015-03-25 11:38 AM
in reply to: jhaack39


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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by jhaack39



My results:
-lots of water up the nose (need to figure out the breathing)



exhale or use your top lip to cover your nose.
2015-03-25 11:55 AM
in reply to: Sidney Porter


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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??
Originally posted by Sidney Porter

Originally posted by jhaack39



My results:
-lots of water up the nose (need to figure out the breathing)



exhale or use your top lip to cover your nose.



I started to sort it out. It's just the timing of exhaling. Rubbing tummy, patting head, while knitting a sweater. I still have to 'think through' the steps. Also, I'm so used to being in 'rest mode', if you will, when approaching the wall so everything is 'different'. It's easy to see how if I could get it down, that everything would certainly be more machinelike and faster.
2015-03-25 12:40 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

There is nobody winning or placing in HIM (in the competitive groups) who can't do flip turns in a swim workout.

Most of them can because if you swim enough to become a good swimmer, chances are you will learn the ability to do flip turns at some point.  But I knew a guy who was quite competitive (KQer) and I never saw him do a single flip turn in 10 years of training.  I assume he could, because I know he learned to swim as a kid.  He just didn't have the need to do so very often.

No doubt.....but it's also what helps make them good swimmers.  Look, there are NO good swimmers who can't flip turn.  Your KQ example is no exception.

That's not what you said before though - you said you can't win or place in HIM without knowing how to flip turn, which is not the case.  You can be a mediocre swimmer and still place at HIM and IM distance. 

2015-03-25 12:54 PM
in reply to: GoFaster

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Subject: RE: flip turns or open turns??

Originally posted by GoFaster

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by JohnnyKay

Originally posted by Left Brain

There is nobody winning or placing in HIM (in the competitive groups) who can't do flip turns in a swim workout.

Most of them can because if you swim enough to become a good swimmer, chances are you will learn the ability to do flip turns at some point.  But I knew a guy who was quite competitive (KQer) and I never saw him do a single flip turn in 10 years of training.  I assume he could, because I know he learned to swim as a kid.  He just didn't have the need to do so very often.

No doubt.....but it's also what helps make them good swimmers.  Look, there are NO good swimmers who can't flip turn.  Your KQ example is no exception.

That's not what you said before though - you said you can't win or place in HIM without knowing how to flip turn, which is not the case.  You can be a mediocre swimmer and still place at HIM and IM distance. 

It is what I said before.....that KQ guy knows how to do flip turns.

But yeah,  maybe in long course you can get on the podium with an avg. swim if you can bike and run well.  I'd still bet there are damn few who can't do flip turns. 

Then again, I don't care at all about long course racing. 

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