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2016-09-12 12:41 PM


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Subject: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.
I hate to say it...but I'm finding this highly frustrating. I'm watching my peers extend their runs farther and farther and I seems to be almost stagnant in my efforts.First, my stats:

39 year old male, 180-185 lbs, 6' tall. Began road cycling in 2012, can do 50 mile to 100K rides.

I began running in Sept of 2015. I ran my first 5K on Oct 6th, 2015. It took me 34:09 with an average pace of 11:11 and an average HR of 161. During that run, my HR was blasting at times into the 185 range, which for me, is 100% unsustainable.

It was last spring when I started doing a 1:4 routine where I'd walk 1min, run 4. I had to do this because of never being able to keep my HR under control. No matter what I do, my HR just keeps climbing to the point where I can no longer maintain the effort. Here's a 4mi run I did yesterday:

[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y42/smokehouse/cycling/4mi%20Sept%202016_zps6efc7ukv.png[/img]

My time? A whopping 46:17 @ 11:11 pace. If I tried to do a straight 5K? You guessed it...11 min pace. HR? Yup...still 161.

No matter what I do or try I just cannot keep my HR under control when running. Every 4 min section, my HR climbs more and more to the point where I'm cooking in the 170's. When I finished yesterday, I was flat exhausted. After spending a year of my life running, I expected more I guess.

I guess what I'm asking is has anyone else experienced this? I went from doing 5 mile rides to 100K in one year, from not being able to swim across a 25yd pool to doing 1500yds sets in one year. This running thing has me completely confused. No matter what I try, I'm flat out burning my HR out and killing myself. I really want to do an Olympic level tri but this running crap is making it impossible. I can do the 1500 swim and 25 bike all day but with this HR issue, a 10K is something I could not even come close to doing unless I just walked the stinking thing.

One would think that after a year of running and at a mediocre 10 min pace, I should be able to maintain that without gassing myself and throttling my HR as if I was grinding up a large hill on my road bike.


2016-09-12 1:01 PM
in reply to: typetwelve

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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.

How many days per week, how long each time, and how far each time, do you run?  Have you been doing this consistently for a year?

I suspect you're running too hard, and possibly either not consistently enough and/or not enough weekly volume, but all variables need to be considered.

Forget about HR for now, and instead use the 0-10 RPE chart on the attached.  About 80% of your running should be at an RPE of 2-3 (What will later correlate to HR zone 2).  If your effort level during runs is currently spiking to unsustainable levels, you're definitely running too hard.  It's counter intuitive, but besides increasing injury risk, running too hard will stunt progress, because you're not stressing the correct energy pathways, while more time running easier will result in bigger gains.  Over time, your "easy pace" will get faster.

 





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2016-09-12 1:09 PM
in reply to: TriMyBest

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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.
for what its worth....I shared the same frustration about running when I started tri's.

In fact i'd get angry why I would put so much effort into running, only to be outdone by colleagues in a 5k when they trained less...

The answer was rounding out training to get speed and endurance vs. just quantity. I got a running coach and improvements showed up within weeks of proper training. Interval runs, tempo, easy and distance runs...a proper mix and monitoring where I was weak, etc. has put me on a path of better and better times even as I get older!

So...my two cents...take heart. If your putting that much effort into training...it may simply be you need to set a proper schedule which includes speed and endurance. There should be all kinds of running schedules on the internet, or if you want to spend a little bit of money get a running coach. With the effort your putting in I have a feeling your running ability will skyrocket.

2016-09-12 1:26 PM
in reply to: typetwelve

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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.
Running is the hardest of the disciplines to add volume and see improvements in time, IMHO.

You sound a lot like my wife when it comes to running. No matter how slow she will run still runs up in the mid 160's.

Do you feel like you could do a lactate threshold run test? Basically an all out 30 min run.

That would give you the appropriate zones for you to be running in.

I will say that when I went to the Maffetone Method of HR Training which put my aerobic threshold at 142 bpm I went from running 10:00 min/mile to 13:00/14:00 m/m. My times did eventually come down but it took some time.

How many miles per week are you running?
How often are you running?
What is your resting HR?
Is it hot where you live?
What's your HR on the bike?
2016-09-12 1:55 PM
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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.
Originally posted by Nick B
How many miles per week are you running?
How often are you running?
What is your resting HR?
Is it hot where you live?
What's your HR on the bike?


First off, thanks for the replies!

Ok, I'll do my best to answer some ?'s

--I try to do at least 3x 2 mi runs a week. Sometimes I'll do 1x 5K in the mix (at least 1 a month). Yesterday I decided to see if I could muster 4 mi.

-Resting HR? Sitting here at my desk, I just pulled 80bpm.

-It has been hot, but yesterday wasn't too horrible. I do indeed run hotter when it's really hot outside. Yesterday's ave temp? 72F, 48% humidity.

-Cyling HR? It varies. My "endurance pace" will be in the high 140's,low 150's. "Race pace"? My last 2 sprint tri races have been a bit higher, 155bpm and 156bpm.

My "race pace" run? LOL...how's that? 168bpm for the race I did a few weeks ago, and 169bpm for my tri back in June. I was cooking pretty good. I managed a 10:06 pace a few weeks back...but again, I had to walk 11 times to get my HR down to usable levels.

I see someone mentioned a zone 2 session...I say that is literally impossible for me. Even if I was attempting to chug along at a 12-13 min pace, I'd still be in the 160's. There's no running activity I can do and stay in Z2...not even close. I can hit Z2 during a brisk walk.


Edited by typetwelve 2016-09-12 1:56 PM
2016-09-12 2:05 PM
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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.

Could be worse.  I've been running for more than 35 years and my pace has gotten slower.  I used to run 6 min/mile most days, now I run more like 12 or 13 (when I time it.)   Of course, my problem is different from yours.  Eventually everybody slows down.  

My point for you would be how to match expectation with reality and I do have the same problem there.  There is no right or expected speed for you to run for a given amount of training.  Chances are you are doing just fine.  You are running regularly.  You are working on keeping your heart rate in a sustainable range.  Keep doing that.  A cooler day to time yourself will help too.  

Here are a few other things to think about.  You know the relaxation exercises they do in yoga where you try to go completely limp.  Try to do the same thing and still keep running.  All I am really saying is to be sure you aren't wasting energy tensing up your legs on the recovery.  

If your knees are ok and your shoes don't wear out really fast, then your stride is probably ok.  I have never seen people make much of a gain by changing running form.  Sometimes a coach can catch something that helps.  Overstriding is the most common problem with running form.

If you really want to go faster, the best thing to add to your workout routine is to do intervals.  Just don't do them too often or you will get hurt.  Running 440's as fast as you can with about 2-3 minutes recovery will make you much faster.  A workout consisting of a mile warmup.  8-10 1/4 mile intervals, and a mile cool down done about once a week is a great speed enhancer.

Have fun.  

TW

 

Edit to add

I just saw your workout routine.  3x2mi every week is pretty light.  Let me change my advice.  I would up the percentage of run training in your week.  Even if you go quite slow, sustained running or run/walk for an hour would be the first thing to add.  Don't worry about the speed, keep the heart rate (or RPE if you prefer) in the really easy range.  Shuffle like us old guys if you must.  Overcome the mental block about the duration.   Your biking sounds like you have the cardio capacity to just move it up.  You don't say how much you ride, but to increase the run by the amount you need to, you probably are going to have to cut back biking for a while.  The running speed work should come later.



Edited by tech_geezer 2016-09-12 2:27 PM


2016-09-12 2:17 PM
in reply to: 0


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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.
Originally posted by tech_geezer

Could be worse.  I've been running for more than 35 years and my pace has gotten slower.  I used to run 6 min/mile most days, now I run more like 12 or 13 (when I time it.)   Of course, my problem is different from yours.  Eventually everybody slows down.  

My point for you would be how to match expectation with reality and I do have the same problem there.  There is no right or expected speed for you to run for a given amount of training.  Chances are you are doing just fine.  You are running regularly.  You are working on keeping your heart rate in a sustainable range.  Keep doing that.  A cooler day to time yourself will help too.  

Here are a few other things to think about.  You know the relaxation exercises they do in yoga where you try to go completely limp.  Try to do the same thing and still keep running.  All I am really saying is to be sure you aren't wasting energy tensing up your legs on the recovery.  

If your knees are ok and your shoes don't wear out really fast, then your stride is probably ok.  I have never seen people make much of a gain by changing running form.  Sometimes a coach can catch something that helps.  Overstriding is the most common problem with running form.

If you really want to go faster, the best thing to add to your workout routine is to do intervals.  Just don't do them too often or you will get hurt.  Running 440's as fast as you can with about 2-3 minutes recovery will make you much faster.  A workout consisting of a mile warmup.  8-10 1/4 mile intervals, and a mile cool down done about once a week is a great speed enhancer.

Have fun.  

TW




The past 2 weeks I've been doing mini-biathlons where I will run 1 mile, cycle 10, then run another mile.

My stride is also mildly messed up...kind of short, kind of slow. I'm extremely consistent normally running at a 10 min pace (again, when running), which is comfortable for me. I run between 150-160 SPM with a whopping .95-1m stride length. So, short but not amazingly fast (LOL).

EDIT

Just pulled my HR again...down to 72. So, I guess a resting between 70-80 would be fair.

Edited by typetwelve 2016-09-12 2:23 PM
2016-09-12 2:20 PM
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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.
Originally posted by tech_geezer
Have fun


No truer words.

I'm only 1-2 years down the road from the OP.
I had little idea about what my heart rate was doing when I first started.
And, I find the HRM a bit annoying, so I rarely use it. Of course, I also tend to think I rarely go fast enough I need it. HAH!

I started 'speed' work plan about a month+ ago. The first 2-3 weeks were literally finding 'just under' my 10k pace and trying to hit that for a mile and then taking a nice long relaxing jog....and then trying again for another mile. 3 miles generally. Maybe a 10k mixed in, knowing I couldn't hold my 'just under' 10k pace over 10k, even with some 'trotting'. I think it was all more about just trying to 'reset' the pace clock in my head.

2-3 weeks with some more of those runs, and some specific track workouts, and I just did 10k yesterday. Total PR. By quite a measurable amount.

Couldn't tell you my heartrate. I only wear that thing when I try something new and I want to pay attention for any potential dangers. Even then, I'm getting pretty good at being able to tell when my heart is hammering at an unhealthy pace. It's usually a sign I've expended my body at a level that is too hard, or my alma mater's football team is going into double overtime.

I wouldn't do any of it if it weren't fun.

Edited by jhaack39 2016-09-12 2:20 PM
2016-09-12 2:28 PM
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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.
For me...running is FAR from fun. As a matter of fact, I freaking despise it. Throttling myself to gassing every 4 min and repeating that 10 times is far from anything I'd consider fun. Factor in that level of effort just to get a pathetic 10min pace and it makes me even more furious about even the thought of doing it.

I do it so I can do triathlons, which I enjoy. I love cycling, I like swimming. If I ever had to run again, it would be too soon.

I'm guessing that anyone pushing themselves to gasping just to accomplish a simple task would despise it. If I had t work this hard to cycle or swim, I would had stopped a long time ago.

Edited by typetwelve 2016-09-12 2:28 PM
2016-09-12 2:32 PM
in reply to: tech_geezer

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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.

Originally posted by tech_geezer

Could be worse.  I've been running for more than 35 years and my pace has gotten slower.  I used to run 6 min/mile most days, now I run more like 12 or 13 (when I time it.)   Of course, my problem is different from yours.  Eventually everybody slows down.  

My point for you would be how to match expectation with reality and I do have the same problem there.  There is no right or expected speed for you to run for a given amount of training.  Chances are you are doing just fine.  You are running regularly.  You are working on keeping your heart rate in a sustainable range.  Keep doing that.  A cooler day to time yourself will help too.  

Here are a few other things to think about.  You know the relaxation exercises they do in yoga where you try to go completely limp.  Try to do the same thing and still keep running.  All I am really saying is to be sure you aren't wasting energy tensing up your legs on the recovery.  

If your knees are ok and your shoes don't wear out really fast, then your stride is probably ok.  I have never seen people make much of a gain by changing running form.  Sometimes a coach can catch something that helps.  Overstriding is the most common problem with running form.

If you really want to go faster, the best thing to add to your workout routine is to do intervals.  Just don't do them too often or you will get hurt.  Running 440's as fast as you can with about 2-3 minutes recovery will make you much faster.  A workout consisting of a mile warmup.  8-10 1/4 mile intervals, and a mile cool down done about once a week is a great speed enhancer.

Have fun.  

TW

 

Edit to add

I just saw your workout routine.  3x2mi every week is pretty light.  Let me change my advice.  I would up the percentage of run training in your week.  Even if you go quite slow, sustained running or run/walk for an hour would be the first thing to add.  Don't worry about the speed, keep the heart rate (or RPE if you prefer) in the really easy range.  Shuffle like us old guys if you must.  Overcome the mental block about the duration.   Your biking sounds like you have the cardio capacity to just move it up.  You don't say how much you ride, but to increase the run by the amount you need to, you probably are going to have to cut back biking for a while.  The running speed work should come later.

Well if you ran most days at an 18:00 5k pace and 36 min 10K pace you ain't only getting slower as you age......you, like most of us, are steadily getting faster when you were younger.

2016-09-12 2:41 PM
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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.
I hear ya.
I'm not a runner, in that I don't enjoy the running part of it...dream about how good it will feel out there burning my legs and stuff like some people do.

BUT,
I do like the 'being outside'.
Cycling is hard to do when it's chilly, and downright miserable if it's cold.
Swimming in the cold? Well, duh. Not a chance.
Sure, rain can be miserable. But running the in rain doesn't feel as 'dangerous' as it does cycling in the rain.

I like that I can pretty much pickup and do it whenever I want. I don't need a gym, or a helmet, or a route mapped out or spare gels and full water bottles and massive sunscreen because I'm going to be out for 3 hours. Even if it's super hot, it's only marginally more unpleasant, for me.

I like listening to music. I don't have to listen to 'up tempo' music. I listen to what I like. And just enjoy the music and being outside. Looking around. Noticing things I don't notice when I'm driving by or cycling. I like to sometimes go and find paths and parks to run in, for a change of scenery. I imagine myself blogging about all the places I've found to run. Of course, I just imagine it, because I never get around to actually doing it. I get to think about a lot of things when I run. Stuff I don't have to execute on. I don't have to think about anything important at all. Or, I can if I want.

So, yeah....while not being overly fond (although, I have no aversion to it as I kinda did when I was a flabby whale) of the running part of running, I've found a whole lot of other things I like about it.

Edited by jhaack39 2016-09-12 2:43 PM


2016-09-12 2:46 PM
in reply to: typetwelve

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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.

Originally posted by typetwelve

[ The past 2 weeks I've been doing mini-biathlons where I will run 1 mile, cycle 10, then run another mile. My stride is also mildly messed up...kind of short, kind of slow. I'm extremely consistent normally running at a 10 min pace (again, when running), which is comfortable for me. I run between 150-160 SPM with a whopping .95-1m stride length. So, short but not amazingly fast (LOL). EDIT Just pulled my HR again...down to 72. So, I guess a resting between 70-80 would be fair.

So you don't like running all that much.  I totally understand.  I am not crazy about it either.  The running can get much easier but you do have to run to get there.  If you are happy with where you, don't change a thing.  But, the run/cycle/run biathlon is an awkward muscle transition.  That in itself slows you down.  I would just spend the same time just running.

Just to remind you why people run rather than bike or swim, it just takes a pair of shoes and a road.  Biking and swimming are much harder to get the gear ready.  Biking you are pumping up tires, finding the helmet and gloves, sometimes even driving with the bike in the back of the truck to a better or safer place to ride.  Swimming you have to get to the pool and get a lane at the right time of day for lap swimming.  Running, just lace up and head out the door.   For me, convenience was always the reason I ran more than anything else.  I didn't start triathlon training until I was 50 and injuries kept cropping up.  Cycling and swimming are easier on the joints.

 

2016-09-12 3:07 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.

Originally posted by Left Brain

[Well if you ran most days at an 18:00 5k pace and 36 min 10K pace you ain't only getting slower as you age......you, like most of us, are steadily getting faster when you were younger.

6ish pace.  It was actually 5 miles in 32 to 34 minutes most weekdays on a course with some hills, longer and slower on Saturday morning.  I rarely raced but I did do a 38 10 k on a very hilly course.  I also did 69 min on the Virginia 10 miler course (not on a race day), also a very hilly course.  I have the logbooks still if you would like to see them.  We trained pretty much as fast as we could run.  It was race pace every day.  On 1/4 intervals, the goal was to keep them all under 60 sec.  The next to last one always was a little over, but the last was in the low 50's.  I ran with a fast crowd and I struggled to keep up but my times were good.  I was in my late 20's and weighed about 135 lbs.  You don't have to believe me if you don't want to.

 

 

2016-09-12 3:21 PM
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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.
It's been briefly referred to in a previous post, but I'll mention it again - It sounds like you might want to check out the Maffetone method/ 180 formula:

https://philmaffetone.com/180-formula

You may be doing most of your running at an anaerobic heart rate and haven't developed your aerobic system enough. The 180 formula forces you to slow down, maybe even to the point of walking, but it helps you develop your aerobic base.

The down side is that you may need to increase volume to see results, but going at a slower pace will allow you to get out there more often and for longer periods.

There are some people who don't agree with this approach, but you might see some results. If you have gone a year and haven't seen results, you might want to at least look into it and decide if you want to give it a try.
2016-09-12 3:45 PM
in reply to: tech_geezer

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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.

Originally posted by tech_geezer

Originally posted by typetwelve

[ The past 2 weeks I've been doing mini-biathlons where I will run 1 mile, cycle 10, then run another mile. My stride is also mildly messed up...kind of short, kind of slow. I'm extremely consistent normally running at a 10 min pace (again, when running), which is comfortable for me. I run between 150-160 SPM with a whopping .95-1m stride length. So, short but not amazingly fast (LOL). EDIT Just pulled my HR again...down to 72. So, I guess a resting between 70-80 would be fair.

So you don't like running all that much.  I totally understand.  I am not crazy about it either.  The running can get much easier but you do have to run to get there.  If you are happy with where you, don't change a thing.  But, the run/cycle/run biathlon is an awkward muscle transition.  That in itself slows you down.  I would just spend the same time just running.

Just to remind you why people run rather than bike or swim, it just takes a pair of shoes and a road.  Biking and swimming are much harder to get the gear ready.  Biking you are pumping up tires, finding the helmet and gloves, sometimes even driving with the bike in the back of the truck to a better or safer place to ride.  Swimming you have to get to the pool and get a lane at the right time of day for lap swimming.  Running, just lace up and head out the door.   For me, convenience was always the reason I ran more than anything else.  I didn't start triathlon training until I was 50 and injuries kept cropping up.  Cycling and swimming are easier on the joints.

 

Yep. What you need to do is go out and run - don't worry about the data so much (short stride length is good for distance running and heart rate is usually higher for running over cycling). I think for you adding volume slowly, namely in the 10% area each week will show you some good benefits. Running and running in at an RPE that is manageable (usually so that you can still hold a conversation) - how much running to do in a week is really about your goals - do you want to be able to run 6 miles comfortably? a half marathon? Or 5k? 

There are lots of canned plans that will likely do you just fine - that incorporate the run/walk walk like the couch to 5k and similar that would offer good guidance on length and frequency of running to build you up. 

Best of luck! 

 

2016-09-12 3:47 PM
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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.
Originally posted by tech_geezer

Originally posted by Left Brain

[Well if you ran most days at an 18:00 5k pace and 36 min 10K pace you ain't only getting slower as you age......you, like most of us, are steadily getting faster when you were younger.

6ish pace.  It was actually 5 miles in 32 to 34 minutes most weekdays on a course with some hills, longer and slower on Saturday morning.  I rarely raced but I did do a 38 10 k on a very hilly course.  I also did 69 min on the Virginia 10 miler course (not on a race day), also a very hilly course.  I have the logbooks still if you would like to see them.  We trained pretty much as fast as we could run.  It was race pace every day.  On 1/4 intervals, the goal was to keep them all under 60 sec.  The next to last one always was a little over, but the last was in the low 50's.  I ran with a fast crowd and I struggled to keep up but my times were good.  I was in my late 20's and weighed about 135 lbs.  You don't have to believe me if you don't want to.

 

 




I think he believes you....I think he's implying that we aren't getting slower because we're getting older and that we're going the other way.
Mathematically, the younger we get, the faster we get.

The data holds true. But not for me
I was fatter when I was younger.
I get another year or two, maybe, of getting faster, but by then I'm guessing age will catch up and outpace my improved fitness.


Edited by jhaack39 2016-09-12 3:47 PM


2016-09-12 4:33 PM
in reply to: typetwelve


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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.

Originally posted by typetwelve
Originally posted by Nick B How many miles per week are you running? How often are you running? What is your resting HR? Is it hot where you live? What's your HR on the bike?
First off, thanks for the replies! Ok, I'll do my best to answer some ?'s --I try to do at least 3x 2 mi runs a week. Sometimes I'll do 1x 5K in the mix (at least 1 a month). Yesterday I decided to see if I could muster 4 mi. -R

 

The bolded is the answer to your problems.

It's VERY hard to gain ability in running when you're running on average, 6 miles per week, or possibly less. Especially when the run race distance is usually over 3 miles. 

The solution for you right now is easy. You just need to gradually ramp up running (use the 10%/week rule) until you're doing 20 mpw. No speedwork needed for now, no complicated workout plans - just run, and regularly. Note that it's fine to slack off on the biking or swimming for you while you're ramping up, as it sounds like you're most limited by running, so you'll get the most bang for buck results by improving running.

Once you can hold 20mpw for a month, come back and we'll give you more advice on how to really crank it up.

Another thing - don't overanalyze. If you're only running 6 miles total per week, all the HR data, resting HR, is pointless, as the reason you're being held back is simply lack of volume running, not because of some pacing issue during training. Just go run more, and watch the magic happen.

 

2016-09-12 4:45 PM
in reply to: roserc

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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.
Don't worry about miles, run for time at a very easy pace until you can go for an hour. Build up slowly. Get into a routine of at least 30 minutes twice a week and 60 for your long run. When you can do that for 3 weeks then you should look into speed work. Once you get there I am pretty sure you will find yourself faster than you are now.

When I say build up slowly I mean very slowly. I assume you can run for about 22 minutes right now if you are running 2 miles at about 11 minute pace. Go out for a run, different from your normal course and set a timer for 10 minutes, turn around and go home. The next week go out for 11 minutes then turn around and come home. If you are truly going in a comfortable zone of 2-3 for your runs recovery weeks can be more spread out than once a month. You will be running 30 minutes within 5 weeks. At that point I would stick with 30 minutes for every run except the long run on the weekend. Add 2 minutes on your outbound section(4 min Roundtrip) and 2 months later your at an hour. Then you should have a reasonable base to start adding speedwork.

You mention usually going about 3 times a week. I know that when I am usually going 4 times a week, it is really more like sometimes 2, sometimes 3 sometimes 4. If you really want to see improvement you have to commit to at least 3 times a week. Getting close, you own't see the improvement you say you want.

It doesn't come quickly but that is the best way to improve. Patience is the key to injury free development in running.
2016-09-12 5:01 PM
in reply to: yazmaster

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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.
Originally posted by yazmaster

Originally posted by typetwelve
Originally posted by Nick B How many miles per week are you running? How often are you running? What is your resting HR? Is it hot where you live? What's your HR on the bike?
First off, thanks for the replies! Ok, I'll do my best to answer some ?'s --I try to do at least 3x 2 mi runs a week. Sometimes I'll do 1x 5K in the mix (at least 1 a month). Yesterday I decided to see if I could muster 4 mi. -R

 

The bolded is the answer to your problems.

It's VERY hard to gain ability in running when you're running on average, 6 miles per week, or possibly less. Especially when the run race distance is usually over 3 miles. 

The solution for you right now is easy. You just need to gradually ramp up running (use the 10%/week rule) until you're doing 20 mpw. No speedwork needed for now, no complicated workout plans - just run, and regularly. Note that it's fine to slack off on the biking or swimming for you while you're ramping up, as it sounds like you're most limited by running, so you'll get the most bang for buck results by improving running.

Once you can hold 20mpw for a month, come back and we'll give you more advice on how to really crank it up.

Another thing - don't overanalyze. If you're only running 6 miles total per week, all the HR data, resting HR, is pointless, as the reason you're being held back is simply lack of volume running, not because of some pacing issue during training. Just go run more, and watch the magic happen.

 




Yup, gotta run more and and a super easy pace at first to build up without getting injured. I also suggest you do a LTHR run field test. Here's the protocol taken from this site:

After a 15 minute warm-up of easy running, finish with a few quick 20 seconds bursts to get your heart rate in the correct training zone.

The 30 minute TT begins.
At 10 minutes into the test, hit the 'Lap' button on your heart rate monitor, to get the average heart rate over the final 20 minutes of the test.
The average for the final 20 minutes is your Lactate Threshold or LT.
You should finish knowing you gave it everything you had.

15 minutes easy cool down.

Get your LT # and go here to define your HR zones: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=...

You should train in Z1-Z2 until you can consistently run 20mpw. If that means you have to use run/walk ratios to stay in those zones, do it. Doing that consistently will build your bodies capillary density and mitochondria. More of those mean more efficient metabolism of oxygen which will in turn (over time) lead to faster running at those zones.

Roland
2016-09-13 3:44 AM
in reply to: kloofyroland

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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.
So I have a question for you. What is your breathing like when you run? Is it controlled or are you puffing and panting and gasping for air?

The reason that I ask is that my friend has been running for about the same time as you but she is much slower (think 15 minute miles). She is under strict doctors orders to control her heart rate when she runs. When she keeps her breathing controlled and steady then her heart rate stays controlled and steady, when she allows her breathing to get out of control then her heart rate also gets out of control. This seems to be the case no matter the speed that she runs at.

She is gradually getting faster but it is taking consistently running 5 or 6 days a week and using run/walk intervals to ensure her heart rate remains within the Dr prescribed limits.

2016-09-13 9:39 AM
in reply to: typetwelve

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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.
You should take your resting HR first thing upon waking up in the morning. That's the best time to get a truly accurate HR.

It's not entirely accurate but, if we say that your LTHR is 168 based on your races.
Then your top end zone two is 150.

You should be able to slow down enough to make that happen.

Are you doing any sort of warm up before you start running? Maybe walk for a few minutes then slowly ease into a jog.





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2016-09-16 11:16 AM
in reply to: Nick B


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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.
I hear you I am the same way. I have tried slowing my pace down, but still notice that my heart rate just continues to climb during a run until I am in the 170's. But I will admit I neglect running and have not been putting in miles due to family obligations this summer. I went out for a run the other day and was running at about a 10:30 min/mi pace and my HR was in the 160's, but the odd thing was I felt like it was a pretty low RPE for me and when I finished my run I wasn't even breathing very hard.

In another thread somone suggested googling "BarryP running". I have decided to just ditch running according to HR zones for a while and follow this plan while ramping up my running. Take a look at it because it seems like a simple plan to follow and could help you just put aside all the data for a bit and just run according to a pace.
2016-09-16 10:42 PM
in reply to: typetwelve

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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.

Running 6 miles a week in 3 runs will not make great gains.

You should be able to talk when you are running, if you can't talk you are running to fast.

Are you following a plan? I would recommend a plan that slowly has your run longer and more frequently. 4x a week you will make more gains than 3x.

When I started training, running was my least favorite but over time I became to enjoy it more and more. I found running w/o music I was able to find this zen place in my head that was very peaceful.

2016-09-19 11:19 PM
in reply to: typetwelve

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Subject: RE: 1yr into running and seeing almost no gains.
It's not any surprise you're not improving when you only run 6 miles a week or less. Would your biking improve by only doing 6 miles a week? Would your swimming improve by only doing 2 laps 3 days a week? No. You don't seem to have any focused plan either. Just winging it.

You might do well by starting over with the couch to 5K program, then move on to the 10K program.

I recall having similar difficulty years ago. I wasn't improving and asked some more knowledgeable people. At the time I was running maybe 10 miles a week. I was told I wouldn't see significant improvement until I got up to 30-35 miles a week. I thought that seemed very extreme just to run a 5K. Since then I've learned that the high school kids who run well often exceed 50 miles a week and the elites go even higher mileage...just for a 5K. Obviously all this running is not done at a full out effort. In fact most often only 10-15 miles of a 50 mile week is done at a hard effort, if even that much.

Where you're at you have to focus on increasing the amount you run. In order to do that you'll probably have to mix running and walking, and gradually increase the distance. As you get up to 15-20 miles a week you will probably find the running part becomes a higher percentage. At no point should you try to run hard. Just a slow jog. The goal is to increase distance. Don't even worry about heart rate. Go as slow as necessary to avoid breathing too hard. Over time as you keep adding more miles to your weekly running, you'll find breathing will get easier and your running will get a bit faster.

As it is now, you're running so little that it's almost as if you're starting over from zero every time you run. Plus it sounds like you're effort level is way too high. Distance running is about building endurance. It's not the same as sprinting.

Good luck
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