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2017-10-24 8:54 AM


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Subject: Flip turns
Does anyone see the value in learning or practicing flip turns for triathlon swimming? I suppose it adds to the continuous swim that is similar to OWS, but sure hate doing them. For me, it isn't the water in nose or anything, I tend to get a little dizzy for whatever reason.


2017-10-24 9:31 AM
in reply to: Burchib

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Subject: RE: Flip turns

Do a sitr4 search for flips turns..........you'll find enough reading and opinions to take you through lunch time.

2017-10-24 2:56 PM
in reply to: Burchib

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Subject: RE: Flip turns

Yes, a site search here and on Slowtwitch will yield you enough reading material for the next several weeks. My take, since you asked and I have nothing better to do at this moment: Learn them, do them. Flips done right are faster. Will you need them for triathlon swimming? No, as long as you never do a pool-swim tri. Also, if you do any group swim workouts, those with you will thank you for being able to stay at your place in the rotation.

2017-10-24 7:45 PM
in reply to: briderdt


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Subject: RE: Flip turns
Originally posted by briderdt

Yes, a site search here and on Slowtwitch will yield you enough reading material for the next several weeks. My take, since you asked and I have nothing better to do at this moment: Learn them, do them. Flips done right are faster. Will you need them for triathlon swimming? No, as long as you never do a pool-swim tri. Also, if you do any group swim workouts, those with you will thank you for being able to stay at your place in the rotation.




Yup this.

It's also good hypoxic training
2017-10-26 4:42 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Flip turns
Originally posted by Left Brain

Do a sitr4 search for flips turns..........you'll find enough reading and opinions to take you through lunch time.




awww
I just made some popcorn....that would have been 'fun' to rehash...again...

(ok, maybe not)
2017-10-27 4:04 AM
in reply to: Burchib

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Subject: RE: Flip turns

No wonder BT is so quiet these days.  What with you guys killing off a perfectly good flip turn thread before it even gets going!  

To the OP, yes I think there is value in learning and getting proficient at flip turns.  Not so much in that it's a skill directly attributable to open water swimming but more that it makes you a better overall swimmer and in a triathlon, the ones doing well at the swim leg are the better overall swimmers (generally). 

Is it a *necessary* skill?  Absolutely not.



2017-10-27 7:00 AM
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Subject: RE: Flip turns

About three years ago, I spent about two hours total over six or seven practice sessions specifically trying to flip turn.  Just can't do it.  I don't know whether it's a mental block, body awareness, balance, water-up-the-nose or whatever, I just couldn't do it.  So I've managed to pile up over a million yards with open turns over the years.  I'm still not a good swimmer by swimmer standards, but I can get through a Masters practice and have decent OWS skills so I do fine in races. 

If I were to start over again, and I mean really start from scratch, I'd have a go at it.  I'd also learn fly and a proper breaststroke, but let's not get carried away here. 

Now I'm post back surgery so I have an excuse. 



Edited by jmhpsu93 2017-10-27 7:01 AM
2017-10-27 12:19 PM
in reply to: Burchib


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Subject: RE: Flip turns
I'm 100% sure my flip turns are not proper.
I followed the advice here of people here and just read stuff. Watched a few videos.
Asked a question or two....

And basically just committed to doing them.
At first, just now and again.
Then a little more. Then a little more. Then a little more.

It's like anything else.....you just keep doing them. Thinking about them as you do them. And evaluating your success/failure as you do them and working to improve elements of it. It didn't happen overnight. A couple weeks, maybe. Several even. Unless there's a physiological reason or a mental/disorientation thingy going on...you'll succeed.

I'm glad I do. For me, it just feels like I'm using my time in the pool more efficiently.
I don't know if it makes me a better swimmer. But for me, it just makes swimming more tolerable. I feel like I'm finishing my workout faster. Not necessarily swimming faster.

And being that I find lap swimming boring as heck, anything that makes it more pleasant/feel like it's faster....I'm game for.
2017-10-27 1:45 PM
in reply to: jhaack39

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Subject: RE: Flip turns
I'll play (slow Friday at the office )). I've been swimming about 3 days a week for a couple years now. I'm by no means a good swimmer but I've successfully gone from around 2:00/100 to 1:40/100. Lately I've been trying flip turns more and more but I find I can only do them on the deep end of the pool and definitely not when I start getting tired. I thought I would have shaved around 5 seconds off my time when doing them successfully and at the beginning of my swim but I find that's not the case. Maybe I'm just great at open turns or don't capture any of the benefit of the flip but overall it's had a negligible impact on my swimming.
2017-10-27 2:07 PM
in reply to: Burchib

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Subject: RE: Flip turns
Do flip turns and streamline off the wall (you shouldn't be taking your first breath until you're past the flags). Practice both a lot. This goes a looong way to getting your body in the proper position and gliding through the water which helps all your swimming (open water and otherwise). My 2 cents for a Friday afternoon.
2017-10-27 7:52 PM
in reply to: TXTriRook

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Subject: RE: Flip turns

Originally posted by TXTriRook I'll play (slow Friday at the office )). I've been swimming about 3 days a week for a couple years now. I'm by no means a good swimmer but I've successfully gone from around 2:00/100 to 1:40/100. Lately I've been trying flip turns more and more but I find I can only do them on the deep end of the pool and definitely not when I start getting tired. I thought I would have shaved around 5 seconds off my time when doing them successfully and at the beginning of my swim but I find that's not the case. Maybe I'm just great at open turns or don't capture any of the benefit of the flip but overall it's had a negligible impact on my swimming.

After swimming with former collegiates who can place at masters nationals, there is probably more to work out from the speed. Especially with the parts of only capable in the deep end and not when tired. These guys will come in at speed, nailing the turn with like 4 guys standing at the wall. As for depth, if they can float then the water is deep enough to flip. Keep going with it though and you will get better. It's not an instant thing. The negligible impact can actually suggest that longer term the flips will be better as your open turn should be closer to potential whereas flipping you're still rather new. Much more gain possible. And that's only looking at speed, not the other benefits.



2017-10-27 8:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Flip turns

Don't learn flip turns, everybody you race, who does them, will thank you.

Learning to swim and feel the water is learning to swim and feel the water. Flips turns help that.....triathlon swimming is not special swimming.



Edited by Left Brain 2017-10-27 8:27 PM
2017-10-28 6:09 AM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Flip turns

Originally posted by Left Brain

Don't learn flip turns, everybody you race, who does them, will thank you.

Learning to swim and feel the water is learning to swim and feel the water. Flips turns help that.....triathlon swimming is not special swimming.

Annnnndd BAM!!!  I knew this was coming at some point. 

2017-10-28 7:39 AM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Subject: RE: Flip turns

Originally posted by jmhpsu93

Originally posted by Left Brain

Don't learn flip turns, everybody you race, who does them, will thank you.

Learning to swim and feel the water is learning to swim and feel the water. Flips turns help that.....triathlon swimming is not special swimming.

Annnnndd BAM!!!  I knew this was coming at some point. 

Let's double down then. Head Masters coach was on the open water staff at the Rio Games. Being able to swim well translates around to all the "special" situations people come up with.

2017-10-29 9:42 PM
in reply to: axteraa

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Subject: RE: Flip turns
IMHO part of the reason the flip-turn threads are quiet is the most vocal members were banned for life due to their input on the topic.
2017-10-30 12:38 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Flip turns
Originally posted by Left Brain

Don't learn flip turns, everybody you race, who does them, will thank you.

Learning to swim and feel the water is learning to swim and feel the water. Flips turns help that.....triathlon swimming is not special swimming.

You haven’t gotten to use that one in awhile. Were you a little rusty or did it roll right off the keyboard ?


2017-10-30 12:57 PM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano

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Subject: RE: Flip turns

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano
Originally posted by Left Brain

Don't learn flip turns, everybody you race, who does them, will thank you.

Learning to swim and feel the water is learning to swim and feel the water. Flips turns help that.....triathlon swimming is not special swimming.

You haven’t gotten to use that one in awhile. Were you a little rusty or did it roll right off the keyboard ?

Typing is just typing.....there's no special typing.

2017-10-31 1:22 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Flip turns
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano
Originally posted by Left Brain

Don't learn flip turns, everybody you race, who does them, will thank you.

Learning to swim and feel the water is learning to swim and feel the water. Flips turns help that.....triathlon swimming is not special swimming.

You haven’t gotten to use that one in awhile. Were you a little rusty or did it roll right off the keyboard ?

Typing is just typing.....there's no special typing.

Whoa hooo ho there. That’s just not true. I learned how to type in a typing class on a manual typewriter (f I’m old) but these kids today are learning on computers with auto correct and all that fancy stuff. Mostly they just text and use abbreviations. For Christ sake, unless you know how to hit a carriage return lever you don’t know . Typing is just typing my ars. Don’t get me started on shift keys and fixing a jam
2017-10-31 3:23 PM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano

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Subject: RE: Flip turns

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano
Originally posted by Left Brain

Don't learn flip turns, everybody you race, who does them, will thank you.

Learning to swim and feel the water is learning to swim and feel the water. Flips turns help that.....triathlon swimming is not special swimming.

You haven’t gotten to use that one in awhile. Were you a little rusty or did it roll right off the keyboard ?

Typing is just typing.....there's no special typing.

Whoa hooo ho there. That’s just not true. I learned how to type in a typing class on a manual typewriter (f I’m old) but these kids today are learning on computers with auto correct and all that fancy stuff. Mostly they just text and use abbreviations. For Christ sake, unless you know how to hit a carriage return lever you don’t know . Typing is just typing my ars. Don’t get me started on shift keys and fixing a jam

And correction tape... Hated that stuff.

2017-11-01 9:37 PM
in reply to: briderdt

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Subject: RE: Flip turns
Hahaha! Love it!

I just want to add that the folks most likely to be doing open turns are also the folks most likely to not be strong swimmers -- and therefore ... most likely to do a triathlon with a pool swim.

And there's nothing worse than doing a crowded pool swim triathlon with a bunch of people who are doing unpredictable things at the wall. If someone is doing a flip turn ahead of me, I know exactly what is going to happen next. If someone ahead of me pauses heading into the wall and their feet drop, I don't know if they are stopping, turning to their left, turning to their right, etc. And so now I have to hesitate rather than following strongly into the wall. And now my turn is messed up. And so on and so forth.

So yes, it would be great if everyone could learn to do them.

I also understand that they are terrifying and difficult and I can remember swimming toward the wall and psyching myself up and then just wimping out and stopping over and over and over in practice. With people watching. Totally embarrassing.

Also I understand people have vertigo and other health conditions that could make it impossible. You're not a bad person if you can't do it. But if you aren't doing it just because it's hard, well, triathlons are hard, too. It's good to do hard things.
2017-11-03 4:48 PM
in reply to: Burchib

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Subject: RE: Flip turns


2017-11-05 12:09 PM
in reply to: alicefoeller


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Subject: RE: Flip turns
Hi Alice,
One comment on your post.

I'm probably the opposite. I would not do a pool triathlon unless I could do flip turns. I would never want to hold anyone else up or get in their way during a race. I do OK in the open water.

I was the OP on this thread, and my concern is that I am giving myself a slight break at the end of every 25 that I won't get in an OWS. I do open turns about as fast as you can do them, but it isn't the same as OWS. I think that is the value of the flip-more continuous swimming with no extra breathing.

I still hate them-lol. Get dizzy and if I am not totally focused on the exhale, I get a good stinging nasal treatment as the water floods in.
2017-11-05 6:00 PM
in reply to: Burchib

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Subject: RE: Flip turns
Originally posted by BurchibHi Alice,One comment on your post. I'm probably the opposite. I would not do a pool triathlon unless I could do flip turns. I would never want to hold anyone else up or get in their way during a race.
You’d be one of the few people doing them. Don’t let that hold you back from doing a race that has a pool swim.
2017-11-06 7:37 AM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano

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Subject: RE: Flip turns

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano
Originally posted by BurchibHi Alice,One comment on your post. I'm probably the opposite. I would not do a pool triathlon unless I could do flip turns. I would never want to hold anyone else up or get in their way during a race.
You’d be one of the few people doing them. Don’t let that hold you back from doing a race that has a pool swim.

Yeah - the flip turning is the least of your worries when doing a pool triathlon.  Be more worried about people who seed themselves totally wrong, breaststrokers you can't pass, people who speed up, slow down, speed up, and then just stop to take a break in the middle of the lane.

2017-11-06 7:44 AM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Subject: RE: Flip turns

Originally posted by jmhpsu93

Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano
Originally posted by BurchibHi Alice,One comment on your post. I'm probably the opposite. I would not do a pool triathlon unless I could do flip turns. I would never want to hold anyone else up or get in their way during a race.
You’d be one of the few people doing them. Don’t let that hold you back from doing a race that has a pool swim.

Yeah - the flip turning is the least of your worries when doing a pool triathlon.  Be more worried about people who seed themselves totally wrong, breaststrokers you can't pass, people who speed up, slow down, speed up, and then just stop to take a break in the middle of the lane.

Isn't that every day at the pool?

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